Roberts Liardon

Could it be that while Liardon was doing research and studying God's General's that he was renewing his mind to their effectiveness in ministry through anointing despite their natural lives being in the midst of chaos?

Zzub said:

Acton clearly wasn't a great thinker. God is almighty and has never been corrupted - not even a little bit. Power corrupts flesh, true, but I don't live in the flesh. I live in the Word and in the Spirit.

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And the Word for which you live in clearly says in I Corinthians 10:12, "If you think that you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall."

BTW, Jimmy Swaggart must have lived in the Word and in the Spirit (otherwise he would not have had the faith to work wonders and to teach as he did). Yet, as you have mentioned, he fell into the flesh.

Just look at "God's Generals." If they can fall, so can you.

Then by your reasoning God is an idiot because He has given me all power - see Acts 1.8. I can do ALL things through Christ who gives me strength.

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Actually, you are quoting Phillipians 4:13.

Since you bring this verse to my attention, let's read the preceding verses for context

The passage does not say that God has given Paul all power, or all strength. It simply says that if Paul wants to do something, he can go to Christ to get the power to do it.

Now why can he access this power? Because he has learned contentment.

Fact is, based on traditional WoF doctrine, if you are living in want or if you are hungry, you don't have faith. Because if you had faith, you would have never experienced lack in the first place.

Yet, Paul himself experienced lack. He said so. Moreover, if Paul had never experienced lack, he would have never learned contentment. Thus, he would have never gotten the revelation of God's strength in his life.

God has ALREADY blessed us with every single blessing. Christianity is not about trying to be good to earn the power, it is about living in the fulness of power that God has already given us.

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I agree. We don't have to earn the power. But, if we do not have some degree of holiness in our lives, the power will destroy us. Just look at God's Generals.

~ It is easy to criticize contemporary ministries. Especially if one does not like what they teach. But one of the things we need to remember is that God will use us in spite of our flaws and sin. Remember David? Yeah, Mr Swaggart might have been hanging out with hookers, but David had a kid with another mans wife, and kill the womans husband! How about the patriarchs? Paul talked about how he did the things he knew he should not do, and did not do the things he knew he should do. Calvin (worshiped by many in modern Christianism), was a murderer, theif, racist, dictator. Luther was a racist, drunkard, violent, and a partisan in a civil war which caused the death of thousands. All but one of the Southern Baptist cemetaries were founded by masons. Heck, slavery was condoned and supported from the pulpit around the world! You know what all of these have in common? Sin in the hearts of men, but God used them anyway.
~ It is sad when any individual, Christian or not, sins. God hates sin. But God still uses those who sin.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

TheMatmanReturns said:

Fact is, based on traditional WoF doctrine, if you are living in want or if you are hungry, you don't have faith. Because if you had faith, you would have never experienced lack in the first place.

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Out of the 22 years I have been in the faith movement, the only people I have heard say that were the CRITICS of the faith movement and not the teachers themselves. On the contrary, every faith teacher I have heard teach say that if our brother is in lack, we are to give to him out of our abundance.

It amazes me that the critics of faith teacher can claim that we teach something that we don't and then even people who say that they are WoF (or are at least claiming to be sympathetic to it) claims that it is "traditional faith teaching."

victoryword said:

Out of the 22 years I have been in the faith movement, the only people I have heard say that were the CRITICS of the faith movement and not the teachers themselves. On the contrary, every faith teacher I have heard teach say that if our brother is in lack, we are to give to him out of our abundance.

It amazes me that the critics of faith teacher can claim that we teach something that we don't and then even people who say that they are WoF (or are at least claiming to be sympathetic to it) claims that it is "traditional faith teaching."

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i think me and Mattman are floating on the same boat. I do understand about the "teachers" not teaching that, but the WoF followers DO!!! it's not just the critics. I have been in the faith movement for as long as I can remember (more than 22 years) and not to disagree with you...but I have been beat into the gound with "where is your faith???" Each time I went into my church, if I but even sneezed: i was condemned, not prayed for. if I said I was lacking money: I was told I didn't have enough faith. If I said I had some problems: I was told it was sin that brought it upon me. I begged for the day that someone would say "hey, you are really being attacked...let's pray about this." No, it was aways MY faith this, my faith that!!!!

I recently called Copeland Ministries because of some sudden debt in my life. I explained the situation and I was actually told that I need to start "considering my seed." She went on to tell me that I probably have never planted in faith or in the right minstries. I was speechless!!!!!!!!!!!

In my life, as far as WoFers...it's always been thrown back on me.

And I will say this...the friends I have that are still WoF but yet left the WoF church are the most powerful, miracle seeing people that I know. And when we get together and pray...things happen.

So i have to say, concider yourself blessed that you have not been through what Mattman and I have. But it is the mainstream. Mattman has obviously been in the thick of mainstream WoF and I have been in a direct offshoot where the big WoF names comes through like an assembly line...and that is what we experienced.

iafic said:

i think me and Mattman are floating on the same boat. I do understand about the "teachers" not teaching that, but the WoF followers DO!!! it's not just the critics. I have been in the faith movement for as long as I can remember (more than 22 years) and not to disagree with you...but I have been beat into the gound with "where is your faith???" Each time I went into my church, if I but even sneezed: i was condemned, not prayed for. if I said I was lacking money: I was told I didn't have enough faith. If I said I had some problems: I was told it was sin that brought it upon me. I begged for the day that someone would say "hey, you are really being attacked...let's pray about this." No, it was aways MY faith this, my faith that!!!!

I recently called Copeland Ministries because of some sudden debt in my life. I explained the situation and I was actually told that I need to start "considering my seed." She went on to tell me that I probably have never planted in faith or in the right minstries. I was speechless!!!!!!!!!!!

In my life, as far as WoFers...it's always been thrown back on me.

And I will say this...the friends I have that are still WoF but yet left the WoF church are the most powerful, miracle seeing people that I know. And when we get together and pray...things happen.

So i have to say, concider yourself blessed that you have not been through what Mattman and I have. But it is the mainstream. Mattman has obviously been in the thick of mainstream WoF and I have been in a direct offshoot where the big WoF names comes through like an assembly line...and that is what we experienced.

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I actually have been around WoF Christians like what you describe. I was probably one of them at one time until God woke me up. However, I am saying that I have never heard it taught among major WoF adherents and the idea is promoted as a "traditional" teaching by critics. But yes, people like what you descrie definitely give a bad name to the movement as a whole.

Copeland's 1979 book on prosperity teaches that we are to help our brother in need rather than condemn him. It is sad if he has gotten away from this basic teaching or if people in his ministry are taking his teachings to an erroneous extreme.

Yes, the problem can be a lack of faith, but often it is simply an attack of the devil and we are going to suffer trials in this world (John 16:33). So if people are condemning their brothers and sisters rather than praying them through and helping them with some pocket change, then they are not walking in the love and compassion demanded by Jesus and will probably reap what they are sowing and all the positive confessions won't help them.

victoryword said:

It amazes me that the critics of faith teacher can claim that we teach something that we don't

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And accuse us of having no compassion...

The WOF people I know are the most generous and compassionate people I know...... always looking for a way to give... time, money and aid.

I always say: If these critics would actually LISTEN to some of the preachers, they would have a hard time reconciling the reality of it to the heretic-hunters' claims.

victoryword said:

Out of the 22 years I have been in the faith movement, the only people I have heard say that were the CRITICS of the faith movement and not the teachers themselves. On the contrary, every faith teacher I have heard teach say that if our brother is in lack, we are to give to him out of our abundance.

It amazes me that the critics of faith teacher can claim that we teach something that we don't and then even people who say that they are WoF (or are at least claiming to be sympathetic to it) claims that it is "traditional faith teaching."

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I agree with VictoryWord - I too have heard many critics claim this but I have been in the faith camp for a long time and I was never taught to throw problems back at people - its actually a mean spirited way to go about things if someone has a problem just blame their lack of faith.
This is a mis-characterization of the WOF doctrine that I have been taught - like VW said if a brother is in lack you help him and build him up - you don't question his faith causing guilt and doubt - that just makes things worse.

DIATHEKE said:

I agree with VictoryWord - I too have heard many critics claim this but I have been in the faith camp for a long time and I was never taught to throw problems back at people - its actually a mean spirited way to go about things if someone has a problem just blame their lack of faith.
This is a mis-characterization of the WOF doctrine that I have been taught - like VW said if a brother is in lack you help him and build him up - you don't question his faith causing guilt and doubt - that just makes things worse.

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I agree too...but it's just not always that way.

good cop-bad cop
good wofer-bad wofer.

it's still people.

iafic said:

I agree too...but it's just not always that way.

good cop-bad cop
good wofer-bad wofer.

it's still people.

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Amen to that and I do know there are many immature WOF Christians that do go overboard in this area and the problem is many Christians WOF and otherwise stay immature all their lives.
It is indeed all about people.

iafic said:

i think me and Mattman are floating on the same boat. I do understand about the "teachers" not teaching that, but the WoF followers DO!!! it's not just the critics. I have been in the faith movement for as long as I can remember (more than 22 years) and not to disagree with you...but I have been beat into the gound with "where is your faith???" Each time I went into my church, if I but even sneezed: i was condemned, not prayed for. if I said I was lacking money: I was told I didn't have enough faith. If I said I had some problems: I was told it was sin that brought it upon me. I begged for the day that someone would say "hey, you are really being attacked...let's pray about this." No, it was aways MY faith this, my faith that!!!!

I recently called Copeland Ministries because of some sudden debt in my life. I explained the situation and I was actually told that I need to start "considering my seed." She went on to tell me that I probably have never planted in faith or in the right minstries. I was speechless!!!!!!!!!!!

In my life, as far as WoFers...it's always been thrown back on me.

And I will say this...the friends I have that are still WoF but yet left the WoF church are the most powerful, miracle seeing people that I know. And when we get together and pray...things happen.

So i have to say, concider yourself blessed that you have not been through what Mattman and I have. But it is the mainstream. Mattman has obviously been in the thick of mainstream WoF and I have been in a direct offshoot where the big WoF names comes through like an assembly line...and that is what we experienced.

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Hi IAFIC, I am going to try to start off on the right foot with what I have to say. Heart attitudes can be hard to discern in writing.

It does sound flaky of how you say your fellow church members respond to a sneeze with condemnation and not a prayer, actually sounds pretty down right terrible. If this is true [and you arent habitually talking about your problems or sickness instead of the answer] then I'd seriously pray that God would lead me to a more compassionate church.

I didnt hear the phone conversation you had with KCM, you very well may have got in touch with a young christian in the Lord who was trying their best to "help" but rough around the edges.

Admittedly, It would seem strange to me that she suggested you werent sowing into the right ministries. But my question for you is, are you a regular supporter of KCM, because if not then you probably should be calling the ministries that you are supporting. Really you should be calling your Pastor or those in your church who pray.

I really see nothing wrong with anything this lady told you.

Was Jesus being condemning when He told the blind men "according to your faith be it done to you"? It sounds to me like He was putting it all on them.

Was Jesus being condemning to the father of the demon possessed child....

Mark 9:21-24 KJV
(21) And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
(22) And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Sounds like Jesus put it all on him too.

If you dont want it thrown back on you, then who do you want it thrown back on?
Ultimately, you are the only one who can do anything about your finances.

What exactly was it you were wanting to hear when you called KCM that would have been satisfying to you?

I am probably getting on your nerves right about now. I am not trying to be hard, but the answer we need isnt easy.

It is all on you! Everything you have in life up to this point is a result of the words that have been coming out of your mouth. Of course there are several other factors that are involved [as VW pointed out], but our mouth will always reveal the content of our heart.

It sounds like to me that you are expecting from a parachurch ministry what only a good local church can provide.

Here are the initial questions that I ask those I counsel with who are struggling financially:
1. Are you a tither?
2. Are you in any unforgiveness or offense toward anyone?
3. Do you honor your parents? [so it may be well with you....]

These are the 3 things I want to establish when counseling. More often than not, the answer to the problem lies with in one of these the questions.

It is not my intent to defend this person you spoke with,
but.....
What people do to you can never effect your life, only how you respond to what they do will effect your life.

Again it is all on you as an individual that will determine the outcome of your life.

Good post, Pastor J.

It can be hard to hear, but it is truth. The Word tells us to sow our seed into good ground if we want a good return.

I remember going through a really really really hard time .... my 'dark night of the soul' when nothing worked like it used to in the faith dept...

I called KCM and Oral Roberts, both ministries I had partnered with for years, and got some really hard responses.... at first I wanted to scream... I actually argued with one of the people....

I laid out all I was going through and the response was:

"Well, no wonder that's what you have now, listen to your mouth! It sure isn't lined up with the Word! It's lined up with the problem!"

OUCH :o Man, it hurt.. it took me days of weeping and rationalizing and thinking how mean they were and how I was justified to feel the pain I was feeling....... but, eventually, I had to go to the Word and admit they were right.... I was wrong. I had given into fear.... so I changed my words and lined them up with God... and life got better again.

Christina M said:

Good post, Pastor J.

It can be hard to hear, but it is truth. The Word tells us to sow our seed into good ground if we want a good return.

I remember going through a really really really hard time .... my 'dark night of the soul' when nothing worked like it used to in the faith dept...

I called KCM and Oral Roberts, both ministries I had partnered with for years, and got some really hard responses.... at first I wanted to scream... I actually argued with one of the people....

I laid out all I was going through and the response was:

"Well, no wonder that's what you have now, listen to your mouth! It sure isn't lined up with the Word! It's lined up with the problem!"

OUCH :o Man, it hurt.. it took me days of weeping and rationalizing and thinking how mean they were and how I was justified to feel the pain I was feeling....... but, eventually, I had to go to the Word and admit they were right.... I was wrong. I had given into fear.... so I changed my words and lined them up with God... and life got better again.

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Praise God for that awesome testimony!! Things probably didnt get better for you over night either, but you held fast to sound words and faith and acted like you believed it was true doing all the things to keep you in line with Gods blessing.

Thanks for the kind response to my post.

While I sympathize with iaffic (most of us have encountered the "arrogant/immature" WoFer who condemns rather than loves), I believe that I have seen some excellent answers here.

Like Christina M. and Diatheke, I have listened to the preachers and never got the impression from THEM that we were supposed to brow-beat people about their faith. On the contrary, we are often encouraged to "join our faith" with weaker brethren and get them built up. I remember someone saying how the late John Osteen (I think it was him) heard a young preacher who beat up the people for their "not rising in faith." Osteen later confronted this man and told him "if you were a pastor and truly knew people you would not preach these types of messages." (I am paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact words, but it was something like this.)

PastorJ has done an excellent job presenting the other side of this coin. We can get out of balance in either area. We can become so caught up in the "power" and "faith" side of the Biblical truth that we lose compassion. On the other hand, we could become so supposedly "compassionate" that we fail to ensure accountability. We are not helping anyone if we do not make sure that they are being obedient to God's Word.

Taking an extreme case, if a person comes to me because their marriage is failing, I will usually ask them penetrating questions about their role in the possible marital problems. For me to listen only to how rotten their spouse is from them, sympathize only with them, and not get to the heart of the matter will not help their marriage. The same is true with finances and healing. Yes, it is extreme for me to condemn someone for a lack of faith when they sneeze (especially since I have not pass an occasional sneeze or cough myself ), but when we are praying for the sick, it does help to ask some questions. Doctors do it all of the time to get a diagnoses. Unless the Holy Spirit gives a Word of Knowledge concerning a person's situation (which has happened to me at times), counseling does involve asking some questions to see if a person has fulfilled their responsibility.

PastorJ said:

Hi IAFIC, I am going to try to start off on the right foot with what I have to say. Heart attitudes can be hard to discern in writing.

It does sound flaky of how you say your fellow church members respond to a sneeze with condemnation and not a prayer, actually sounds pretty down right terrible. If this is true [and you arent habitually talking about your problems or sickness instead of the answer] then I'd seriously pray that God would lead me to a more compassionate church.

I didnt hear the phone conversation you had with KCM, you very well may have got in touch with a young christian in the Lord who was trying their best to "help" but rough around the edges.

Admittedly, It would seem strange to me that she suggested you werent sowing into the right ministries. But my question for you is, are you a regular supporter of KCM, because if not then you probably should be calling the ministries that you are supporting. Really you should be calling your Pastor or those in your church who pray.

I really see nothing wrong with anything this lady told you.

Was Jesus being condemning when He told the blind men "according to your faith be it done to you"? It sounds to me like He was putting it all on them.

Was Jesus being condemning to the father of the demon possessed child....

Mark 9:21-24 KJV
(21) And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
(22) And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Sounds like Jesus put it all on him too.

If you dont want it thrown back on you, then who do you want it thrown back on?
Ultimately, you are the only one who can do anything about your finances.

What exactly was it you were wanting to hear when you called KCM that would have been satisfying to you?

I am probably getting on your nerves right about now. I am not trying to be hard, but the answer we need isnt easy.

It is all on you! Everything you have in life up to this point is a result of the words that have been coming out of your mouth. Of course there are several other factors that are involved [as VW pointed out], but our mouth will always reveal the content of our heart.

It sounds like to me that you are expecting from a parachurch ministry what only a good local church can provide.

Here are the initial questions that I ask those I counsel with who are struggling financially:
1. Are you a tither?
2. Are you in any unforgiveness or offense toward anyone?
3. Do you honor your parents? [so it may be well with you....]

These are the 3 things I want to establish when counseling. More often than not, the answer to the problem lies with in one of these the questions.

It is not my intent to defend this person you spoke with,
but.....
What people do to you can never effect your life, only how you respond to what they do will effect your life.

Again it is all on you as an individual that will determine the outcome of your life.

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well I would actually like to disect this whole post of yours and answer every single question...but you will find my answers aren't what you thought they would be.

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying...but I am disagreeing with the immediate response of christians to "throw back at you" that you are the problem. I repeat, no one ever stops and says, "hey, you are under tremendous attack. Let me pray with you." You see my church used to be like that. And when two got together and rebuked the devil and claimed victory...things changed. Now it's no longer spiritual warefare...it's now "your fault."

I walk by faith. I live in the most amazing relationship with God. And I walk in miracle working power. I council marriages and teach parents how to raise children. I live a life of victory. I will not tell you everything about me...you wouldn't believe it anyway.

but...that usually ticks off the devil. To ask if I tithe or honor my parents or such is kind of remedial to me, but I understand that you do not know me from adam. for the sake of sounding arrogent, I will refrain from expounding...lets just say concerning these things...YOU HAVE NO IDEA!


My point is, when you live the kind of life that I live, you WILL run into tribulation and persecution and the devil tends to concentrate on lives like mine. To be under spiritual warefare, and yet be told to "consider my seed," is kind of a slap in the face. I know the copeland helper didn't know me either, but she asked if I needed prayer for anything, then instead of praying...she tried to find where my fault was...(and the real truth is, being a partner with Copeland ministries and living in Florida, they had actually called me to pray for the up-coming hurricane season. She then asked if there was anything I needed prayer for.)

I obeyed God and ran into trouble...it's a lie to say that everytime you do the right thing, all things will be right with you. Try and tell Paul that all his tribulation was his fault. Doesn't anyone believe anymore that we have an enemy out there? Ever been instructed by God to give a VERY large amount of money and it would stretch you to the max...and then you car dies, the dishwasher dies, and you get sick? Ummm...popular story....someone is mad you obeyed and planted all that seed.

and yes, my stories above about my church and the people are true. They are not exagerated. I even once called my church because something terrible had happened in my family and the response I got was, "what kind of sin are you involved in that has brought this upon you?"

Sorry that you may not believe some of the church people were like this, or that they were just down right mean...but...some were just downright mean. you think in 19 years of going there that I never once just needed prayer? What if I was lacking in faith? Isn't that what the church is for? For help? Let's say I did mis-tithe...well, who on earth do I go to, to get it corrected then if not the church???????????????

Sorry, I am getting mad...I'll settle down.

But again, prime example...you got on here and tried to find where I missed it, instead of binding together with me and putting an end to the attack. It just gets very discouraging sometimes. And yes, maybe somewhere down the road I find I need to forgive someone or change where I plant seed...but ya know, I don't mean to sound like a smart alec, but I have no trouble hearing from God. And when issues like that exist...they get taken care of.

victoryword said:

For me to listen only to how rotten their spouse is from them, sympathize only with them, and not get to the heart of the matter will not help their marriage. .

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Just a note, what I am talking about has nothing to do with sympathy. Look at the disciples, when one was beaten and thrown in jail...and later let out, they would return "to their own company." What did the other disciples do? sympathize? no. Blame paul or whoever was in jail for not having enough faith? no......

encouragement and prayer. Is it so much to ask?

ugh, i can't help myself, i want to comment on two things here...

PastorJ said:

(23) Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(24) And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Sounds like Jesus put it all on him too.

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Jesus put the outcome on him. he didn't ask the man what kind of sin he was involved in to have this happen to his child. Big difference. Jesus didn't blame the father for the sons condition.

PastorJ said:

It is all on you! Everything you have in life up to this point is a result of the words that have been coming out of your mouth..

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if it's all on me, then why does Jesus instruct us to gather and uplift and fellowship with each other?

and I disagree 100% that everything in my life is a direct result of my words. That would mean that it's Jesus fault that people mocked Him. Paul spoke wrong words when he was stranded in the water for days. it's Peters wrong choice of words that got him beaten...

sorry, I am not with you on this! that's my smiley cuz i am not mad! Just don't agree.

I think that fellow Christians are for edification and encouragement for those living a life for God. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, why do Christians think they should???

(Look what you got me into mattman!!!! )