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Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by JohnD70X7, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    John 6:28–29 (AV)
    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

     
  2. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    That's not chore oriented enough for legalists.
     
  3. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    Beware all who try to bring OT into NT.
     
  4. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid ****CAUTION***** Life is lived in the shape of a ? Supporter

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    So, what's the main point here, John? I could be blind, and I'm not really seeing the intended application...
     
  5. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    No you are fine. There is so much teaching to the contrary of the simple fact that the Old Testament did not end until Christ died on the cross. And so we are to interpret all the passages prior to that point in scripture* AS Old Testament.

    *Matthew 27:50 Mark 15:37 Luke 23:46 John 19:30
     
  6. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    I think the OT totally goes into the NT, but only as the NT being the fulfilment of the OT, rather than a continuation of it. The veil is torn.
     
  7. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    Realizing passages like:

    Matthew 5:29–30 (AV)
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    is Old Testament and not New where:

    Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Jesus said his yoke is easy his burden light (Matthew 11:29-30) what's easy or light about mutilation to keep out of hell?
     
  8. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    Well put. The Old Testament does not end until the cross of Christ (well into what the traditions of man deem "New Testament").

    Understand my point was about making the New Testament subject to the Old. When it is the Old Testament that is subject to the New.

    Galatians 3:24–25 (AV)
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    The Old Testament Law still stands to establish good and evil, to point to the Messiah, and to condemn unbelievers in Christ Jesus.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 (AV)
    6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    So bringing Old Testament legalism into the New Testament Grace is evil.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  9. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid ****CAUTION***** Life is lived in the shape of a ? Supporter

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    Well, I've always interpreted Jesus as presenting us a unity of His own thought, however transitional it may have been eschatologically over the entirety of the 1st century. And in that, I've never really seen Jesus' words as 'Old Testatment' ride-a-longs, but rather as Preamble to all that He'd have His Church believe and do beginning with the Day of Pentecost.

    But I could be wrong. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  10. JohnD70X7

    JohnD70X7 Member

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    Jesus taught (predictive) prophecy of the New Covenant (just as most of the Old Testament does). But he also taught the Law. Matthew 5 - 7 ← the sermon on the mount reads as his own Divine Commentary on the mishandling of the Law. This is why it says "You have heard it said..." by the teachers of the law... "but I say..."

    Matthew 5:27-30 (again, not the Law language in verses 29-30) is to speak to the teaching (mainly from the school of Hillel) that there is another side to the coin of enforcing adultery charges on females who expose too much skin (Leviticus 18:8 / Isaiah 47:1-3) that Job 31:1-13 is just as valid under the Law).

    Matthew 5:27-30 did not refute Hillel but gave divine commentary on the hypocritical way the Law against this brand of adultery was being meted out.

    And none of this applies to New Testament Grace. Or there'd be a lot of Christians prosecuted for adultery. Wouldn't there?
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

    How so?

    Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
    (Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
    (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


    The Old Way says:
    "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
    35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
    36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
    37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


    The Old Way says:
    "And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

    "And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

    "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

    16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

    "They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

    Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


    The Old Way says:
    20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
    21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
    22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

    4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


    Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

    The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
    (Galatians 5:2).


    The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

    So it appears things have changed.

    This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
    (Hebrews 7:12).

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
    (John 1:17).

    Jesus said,
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

    Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Things are not as we wish them to be. If we sin, there are consequences. But that does not mean there is not any grace. We can surely confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). In fact, Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Also, how does 2 Corinthians 7:1 work in your belief?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jesus did not say this is the only work of God. Also, 1 John 3:23 says to believe in Jesus is a commandment. So we are saved by keeping this commandment (Which is a law, i.e. legalism). In other words, we are saved by keeping a grace command. God gives us all kinds of commands in the New Testament, but most today do not want to obey them. They just want the milk of the Word and not the meat of the Word (See: John 4:34, and Hebrews 5:14).
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Okay. I gotta really go. May God's good ways be upon you all (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  15. 2PhiloVoid

    2PhiloVoid ****CAUTION***** Life is lived in the shape of a ? Supporter

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    Sure. I don't see any good reason to disagree with you on a general level with any of this. But I'm still not seeing what the final application is of what you're stating about Jesus' words being within the fold of the Old Testament. When Jesus says 'Forgive, or else The Father shall not forgive you...,' I'm thinking that He's wanting all of us to incorporate this, along with a lot of other things He said, as one essential aspect of the New Covenant which He was introducing, and (in stages) ratifying and activating.

    Sure, there'd by a lot of Christians prosecuted by the Old Testament Law for adultery--especially today since various manifestations of Solomon Syndrome are so much more prevalent than they might have been in the past (wouldn't you agree?).

    Still, I'm not understanding what your 'take away' is for your OP thesis. (Is there a thesis?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  16. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    I'm more interested in things being as God wishes them to be. There are definitely consequences for sin committed by a born again Christian. But I don't see condemnation as being one. And as I said to someone else, I don't see justification as a treading water sink or swim operation. It takes away from the finished work of Christ.
     
  17. MMXX

    MMXX Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get the statistic of most today?
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe chastisement is only for believers who have a proper view of sin and salvation whereby it does not allow for that person to justify the idea that they can abide in grievous sin and still be saved at the same time. For the goal of chastisement is to get the believer to stop sinning. Chastisement is to let the believer know that they headed towards destruction in the Lake of Fire if they do not seek forgiveness with the Lord and they do not forsake their sin. Why? Because what fellowship does light have with darkness? God cannot fellowship with anyone who abides in darkness because He is light and all that is good and holy, and just.

    Listen to the words of Jesus.

    “I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39).

    Several key take aways here.

    #1. Jesus says you seek to kill me because my word has no place in you.
    #2. Jesus says you do that which you have seen of your father.
    #3. The Jews said, Abraham is our father.
    #4. Jesus says if you were Abraham's father, you would do the works of Abraham.

    So we can see that the Pharisees did not have a license to sin here. They sought to kill Jesus because the teachings of Jesus (his word) had no place inside them. They wanted to justify sin with the thinking they were saved because they thought Abraham was their father. Jesus says that the Pharisees do that which they have seen of their father. Their father was the devil. For Jesus said to these Pharisees, “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” (John 8:44). This matches up with the apostle John saying: “He that committeth sin is of the devil;” (1 John 3:8). In fact, Jesus said, “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” (John 3:20). Did you hear that? Jesus says everyone who does evil hates the light. The light is obviously Jesus. So if somebody sins or justifies sin, they are actually hating Jesus according to His own words. So the idea that we can sin and still be saved is simply contrary to the Holy Bible. Jesus refutes their false belief in Belief Alone-ism in their saying they are Abraham's father by telling them that if they were Abraham's father truly, they would do the works of Abraham. Meaning, they would live righteously like Abraham and they would not justify sin or disobedience.

    As for your sink or swim statement:

    I believe God helps us to swim if we accept what His Word says and we fight and battle against sin. We are not alone. When we accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, and believe the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, we receive the Holy Spirit to help us to battle against sin. For Romans 8:13 says if we live after the flesh (sin), we will die, but if we put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Holy Spirit, we shall live (live eternally).
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    How many Sola Scriptura Christian church organizations do you know who promote the same view of sin and salvation as me that is shown in the Holy Bible? If you were to do the research it would not be that many. This is not surprising because Jesus said narrow is the way. Jesus said, few be there that find it. As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man. Jesus asks the question, “...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8). This means things are going to get really bad. Many will not truly believe the words of Jesus anymore. Some will say His words do not apply like Matthew 5:28-30. Jesus basically said if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). I find it hard to believe that the words of Jesus only applied to those under the Old Covenant. For Jesus was making changes to the Law at the sermon on the Mount.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, people can use a metaphorical phrase in a literal sentence. For example: Rick can say, “Billy-bob bought the farm and so we had to arrange funeral services for him and his family.” We know that Billy-bob did not purchase a farm. He died. That part of the sentence is metaphor. But that does not mean that the rest of the sentence is metaphor. It's literal. Just because Jesus uses a figure of speech in gouging out our eye, and or cutting off our hand, does not mean that the rest of what He said was a metaphor. In fact, Matthew 6:15 is no metaphor. Matthew 12:37 is no metaphor. Matthew 25:31-46 is no metaphor.

    As for Ephesians 2:8-10:

    Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with being initially and foundationally saved. Ephesians 2:1 says that we have been quickened. How many times is a believer quickened or made alive? Just one time. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by God's grace like a gift. How many times do you receive a one time gift? Generally you receive a one time gift just one time. Most people do not take the same gifts and re-wrap them again every year (opening the same gifts over and over and over again). So Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with Initial and foundational salvation.

    Ephesians 2:9 is referring to.... “Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace). Why? Because it is the kind of works that a person would boast in themselves in doing. It would be like a person who yells out to people to come and see how good he looks as he bench presses some really heavy weights as he looks at himself in the mirror.

    Ephesians 2:10 is referring to... “God Directed Works Done Through the Believer” (after being saved by God's grace). Why? Because these are not works we would boast in doing ourselves. They are the kind of works that we are created in Christ Jesus to do. They are the kind of works that we are ordained to do. They are the works of God done through us (See: John 15:5, and Philippians 2:13).

    But when you read Paul, you also have to read Galatians 5:24, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:19-21, Titus 1:16, Romans 2:8-11, Romans 6:22, 2 Timothy 3:1-9 to get a proper perspective of what he really taught. In fact, Paul said that the call of the gospel is.... God has chosen us to salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). This sanctification of the Spirit is living holy by God's power working through us because if you were to look at the verses before and after 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, you would see that such verses does not support a sin and still be saved gospel.
     
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