Rightly dividing the word of truth: where the OT and NT dividing line is...

[Ceallaigh]

Do leagalists ever find any joy in their salvation, or is it just a constant battle stay saved for them?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To believe in Jesus is even a commandment or law (See: 1 John 3:23).
Romans 8:2 essentially says the “Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” makes us free from the “law of sin and death.” The “Law of sin and death” is the 613 Laws of Moses given to Israel. The “Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” is defined for us in Romans 8:1. For there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit.

In addition, the apostle Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). So I do believe that believers can walk uprightly in regards to overcoming “grievous sin” (i.e. sins that are mentioned in the Bible that are attached with warnings of hellfire or condemnation). So yes. They can have joy in their salvation indeed. But Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). This means that there is a point in time in our life whereby we have to do so. We have to fear God. For the fear of the Lord men depart from evil (See: Proverbs 16:6).

In fact, what is the opposite position of being a legalist? It would be a person of lawlessness. So if one is not obeying God's laws and or they are not concerned in doing that, then they are for lawlessness. No man can serve two masters. No man can serve both God and sin. There is no such thing as a Christian who can be in God's favor and also be lukewarm.

Matthew 13:41-42 is a passage that always leaves the sin and still be saved type believer speechless. It basically is saying that the Son of Man (Jesus) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom (i.e. Christ's kingdom) all those who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This means that a believer can be in Christ's kingdom but they can later be cast out of His kingdom on account of their justifying sin or evil.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Is there ever how much Jesus loves us in the message of the legalist? Or are they afraid that would take away fear and cause Christians to think it's okay to "live like the devil"?

 

[JohnD70X7]

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 basically says that every soul that does not hear (obeys) that prophet shall be destroyed. This prophet is Jesus Christ. So if a person does not do what Jesus says shall be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similar thing. So it's not just believing in Jesus that will save us, but it is in doing what He says, too. For Jesus says in Luke 6:46, “...why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?”

• You supplied the word obey (Acts 3:23).
  
• Matthew 7:26-27 is before Matthew 27:50 (death of Christ on the cross).
  
• Luke 7:26-27 is before Luke 23:46 (death of Christ on the cross).

1. The New Testament does not begin until the death of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 9:16-17.
2. All that was before was Old Testament (including Matthew 7 and Luke 7)

 

[JohnD70X7]

Here are those verses translated into modern English...

Deuteronomy 18:15 (NET)
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you—from your fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.

Acts 3:22 (NET)
Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must obey him in everything he tells you.

Acts 17:11 (NET)
These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.


Much clearer, right?

No...

Acts 3:22 (LEB)
22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You will listen to him in everything that he says to you.

 

[JohnD70X7]

I believe..

I am not here to debate what you or anyone "wants to believe." I am only pointing out what the Bible says.

If that is contrary to what you or anyone else chooses to believe, that's not my concern.

As for me and my house we will listen to the Lord.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 basically says that every soul that does not hear (obeys) that prophet shall be destroyed. This prophet is Jesus Christ. So if a person does not do what Jesus says shall be destroyed from among the people. Matthew 7:26-27 says a similar thing. So it's not just believing in Jesus that will save us, but it is in doing what He says, too. For Jesus says in Luke 6:46, “...why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?”

I'll go with Matthew Henry's commentary on Acts 3:22-26:

"Here is a powerful address to warn the Jews of the dreadful consequences of their unbelief, in the very words of Moses, their favourite prophet, out of pretended zeal for whom they were ready to reject Christianity, and to try to destroy it. Christ came into the world to bring a blessing with him. And he sent his Spirit to be the great blessing. Christ came to bless us, by turning us from our iniquities, and saving us from our sins."

In my experience if you see doom and not love to Christians, you're reading it wrong. Like it or not Jesus operates on love for His Body, not condemnation. And we are better at obeying Him out of love, joy and gratitude, than out of fear of being zapped.

 

[JohnD70X7]

I'll go with Matthew Henry's commentary...

I'll go with the Bible.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16–17 (AV)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1 John 4:1 (AV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 (AV)
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Mark 7:13 (AV)
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[JohnD70X7]

Jesus contrasted the "things of God" versus the "things of man" and he attributed the "things of man" to "satan..."

Setting aside the wonderful theology in the passage that almost always distracts us from the overall poin the Lord Jesus was making... observe:

Matthew 16:13–23 (AV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[JohnD70X7]

Humanity, by our very nature, our sin nature... is satanic. And we have to accept / face / beware of that reality.

Romans 3:10 (AV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Psalm 53:3 (AV)
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 14:3 (AV)
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

John 8:44 (AV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 5:6 (AV)
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 (AV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Is it any wonder that (even well intentioned people) write commentaries steeped in human traditions rather than Holy Spirit interpreted, Bible authenticated truth?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

• You supplied the word obey (Acts 3:23).
  
• Matthew 7:26-27 is before Matthew 27:50 (death of Christ on the cross).
  
• Luke 7:26-27 is before Luke 23:46 (death of Christ on the cross).

1. The New Testament does not begin until the death of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 9:16-17.
2. All that was before was Old Testament (including Matthew 7 and Luke 7)

... you provide an interesting angle on the inter-relation between the O.T. and the N.T., but how do you work Matthew 11:13 into your overall interpretive matrix, John?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• You supplied the word obey (Acts 3:23).

I highly doubt God meant to listen with your ears and then to ignore His instructions. That would be like a kid who hears their parents rebuking him and he decides to just rebel anyways. The child may have heard the words of his parents in what they were saying but the child is truly not listening or hearing what they have to say because he is still rebelling against his parents. The parents could say that their child is not listening to their correction. In other words, the word “hear” can refer to obedience. This is clearly what is in view in light of Jesus' previous words.

• Matthew 7:26-27 is before Matthew 27:50 (death of Christ on the cross).

Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Paul also mentions various sins in Galatians 5:19-21 and says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

• Luke 7:26-27 is before Luke 23:46 (death of Christ on the cross).

Paul says that a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

1. The New Testament does not begin until the death of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 9:16-17.
2. All that was before was Old Testament (including Matthew 7 and Luke 7)

I agree that the New Testament does not begin until Christ's dies upon the cross, but I also believe that Jesus was giving us New Covenant teachings primarily and not Old Covenant teachings. Proof? Just read it for yourself. Jesus was giving us new teachings many times that were not exactly from the Old Covenant. To love God with all your mind was an addition by our Lord. Jesus said I give you a new commandment to love one another as I have loved you. These are new commands.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

• You supplied the word obey (Acts 3:23).
  
• Matthew 7:26-27 is before Matthew 27:50 (death of Christ on the cross).
  
• Luke 7:26-27 is before Luke 23:46 (death of Christ on the cross).

1. The New Testament does not begin until the death of Christ on the cross. Hebrews 9:16-17.
2. All that was before was Old Testament (including Matthew 7 and Luke 7)

Also, while Christ's death upon the cross did officially begin the New Testament, I believe it was no accident that our Bibles have the words “New Testament” beginning with the Incarnation because Jesus is giving us primarily New Testament or New Covenant teachings. These are new teachings because much of what Jesus said was not from the Old Testament. It was New. Jesus was preparing men for the New Testament. This is obvious in the fact when Jesus says:

“And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved. No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.” (Luke 5:36-39).

Jesus is preparing them for the New Covenant with His New Covenant teachings.
So my Bible is correct in saying New Testament because Jesus was giving us New Testament (or New Covenant) teachings. In your view, your Bible has an error in it and you should reprint your Bible with the New Testament beginning at Christ's death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Humanity, by our very nature, our sin nature... is satanic. And we have to accept / face / beware of that reality.

Romans 3:10 (AV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

When you apply Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 to the present tense every day life of the believer, you also have to apply Romans 3:11 to the present tense every day life of the believer, too.

Romans 3:11 says, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”

So if you apply Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 to the believer living out their faith, then you must also apply that all believers do not have any understanding, and that they do not seek after God, too. This means we should not trust what you have to say then.

Isaiah 64:6 (AV)
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You are ripping this verse out of context.

Isaiah 64:5 says,
“Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.”

Isaiah says that God meets the person who rejoices and works righteousness. This would not be possible if things are as you say.
Isaiah 64:6 is referring to man directed righteousness and not the righteousness of God. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments in John 14:15. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1 lets us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

John 8:44 (AV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus says he that is of God hears God's words (John 8:47). This same truth is expressed in 1 John 3:10. 1 John 2:29 says he that is born of God does righteousness.

Romans 5:6 (AV)
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:8 (AV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

These verses are talking about the Provisional Atonement and they are not talking about how God wants us to live after we have sought forgiveness with the Lord. You are confusing Provisional Atonement verses with Sanctification verses.

Is it any wonder that (even well intentioned people) write commentaries steeped in human traditions rather than Holy Spirit interpreted, Bible authenticated truth?

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says, “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him”

Is one obeying Him?

 

[JohnD70X7]

... you provide an interesting angle on the inter-relation between the O.T. and the N.T., but how do you work Matthew 11:13 into your overall interpretive matrix, John?

Matthew 11:13 (AV)
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

1. The Old Testament prophets / prophecy did not end with Malachi 4
2. The conclusion of the prophecies of the OT were at the beginning of the fulfillment of Christ's ministry
3. The end of the (predictive) prophecy has no bearing on Hebrews 9:16-17. Does it?

If timeliness is an issue to consider I believe Malachi 4 and Matthew 1 were some 400 years apart. John and his ministry overlapped with the beginning of Jesus and his ministry. And again, this doesn't take away from the fact that the Old Testament Old Covenant Law was still in place until Christ died on the cross.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'll go with Matthew Henry's commentary on Acts 3:22-26:

"Here is a powerful address to warn the Jews of the dreadful consequences of their unbelief, in the very words of Moses, their favourite prophet, out of pretended zeal for whom they were ready to reject Christianity, and to try to destroy it. Christ came into the world to bring a blessing with him. And he sent his Spirit to be the great blessing. Christ came to bless us, by turning us from our iniquities, and saving us from our sins."

In my experience if you see doom and not love to Christians, you're reading it wrong. Like it or not Jesus operates on love for His Body, not condemnation. And we are better at obeying Him out of love, joy and gratitude, than out of fear of being zapped.

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.
Peter told Simon the sorcerer to repent because his heart was not right with GOD in the fact that he was trying to pay for the Spirit. So this shows that one's wrong actions can lead to condemnation.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 11:13 (AV)
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

1. The Old Testament prophets / prophecy did not end with Malachi 4
2. The conclusion of the prophecies of the OT were at the beginning of the fulfillment of Christ's ministry
3. The end of the (predictive) prophecy has no bearing on Hebrews 9:16-17. Does it?

If timeliness is an issue to consider I believe Malachi 4 and Matthew 1 were some 400 years apart. John and his ministry overlapped with the beginning of Jesus and his ministry. And again, this doesn't take away from the fact that the Old Testament Old Covenant Law was still in place until Christ died on the cross.

But you are not taking into account that Jesus was giving us entirely NEW teachings. Why would He give us New teachings just so that they could be done away with? What you propose makes no sense. Plus Paul agreed with Jesus in many places, as well. Paul warned against those who do not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness in 1 Timothy 6:3-4. So what you say is simply not true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, I gotta run. May God bless you all.

 

[JohnD70X7]

But you are not taking into account that Jesus was giving us entirely NEW teachings. Why would He give us New teachings just so that they could be done away with? What you propose makes no sense. So what you say is simply not true.

Based on this reasoning?

The Old Testament teaching never gave us new teachings?

Wow is that a leap.

So what I say is simply not true?

Wow.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him.
Peter told Simon the sorcerer to repent because his heart was not right with GOD in the fact that he was trying to pay for the Spirit. So this shows that one's wrong actions can lead to condemnation.

I'm still going with Matthew Henry, rather than you if that's alright. You're interpretations strike me as being too bleak and harsh most of the time. I don't see any love in them, just severity. Jesus as a stern and harsh taskmaster.