Righteousness of Men

[drich0150]

Not sure what you mean by this. I had no problem with how you responded I was just probing further. No harm intended



Certainly not. I went to a Catholic elementary school as a kid. I currently go to a Baptist church and the pastor at that church is the one I go to lunch with.

Although, "Baptist" doesn't really mean much as far as I can tell; I'm sure there are many people in the congregation that would call themselves non-denominational or simply "Christian".

What about my post made you think I had been influenced by Mormonism??? (I'm intrigued )

What I meant was that I went point by point and it was edited down by the website to a single "?" The last questioned I ask was the Mormon question. i ask the Mormon question because of your stout devotion to a works based faith.

Why do you believe in a works based faith if you haven't been "indoctrinated?" I have never seen such a devout belief in a works based faith out side of the movement.

 

[elman]

What I meant was that I went point by point and it was edited down by the website to a single "?" The last questioned I ask was the Mormon question. i ask the Mormon question because of your stout devotion to a works based faith.

Why do you believe in a works based faith if you haven't been "indoctrinated?" I have never seen such a devout belief in a works based faith out side of the movement.

Why do you resist good deeds--loving your neighbor when it is a command of Jesus? Jesus did not seem to worry about a works based faith. He was more concerned with no works. Matt 25:31 and following. Paul said faith without love--(works) is worthless. 1 Cor 13:2. James said faith without works is dead--actually saying the same as Paul.

 

[elman]

MY FRIEND,

Sooooooo . . . . if all this purported "loving actions" are going on continuously all around us, unconnected with a God who IS Love, why are you bothering to claim to be a Christian if the world could get along just as well without all this "God business?" If "niceness" is inherent in human beings, why worry about the existence or non-existence of God at all as He would appear to be unnecessary in any event, and perhaps even a little jealous of our ingrained "goodness" which you appear to believe rivals His own?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Our goodness is in the image of God who is good all the time. It is not rivaling it. All loving actions are connected to the loving Creator who wrote on our hearts that loving other is good. Claiming to be a Christian would be about claiming to attempt to live in obediance to the command of Jesus to love. If someone claims to be a Christian and does not love others, he is a liar. First John

 

[drich0150]

Why do you resist good deeds--loving your neighbor when it is a command of Jesus? Jesus did not seem to worry about a works based faith. He was more concerned with no works. Matt 25:31 and following. Paul said faith without love--(works) is worthless. 1 Cor 13:2. James said faith without works is dead--actually saying the same as Paul.

Why makes you think i am resisting anything? as I specifically pointed out to you several times that good deeds are not a sin, nor are they they the key to righteousness before the Lord. Good works are simply the Hallmarks of a solid faith. We are not saved because of our Good works, we are saved to do good works.

What makes our Works "Good" are the effect of salvation. Good works are not the cause of salvation, less you have completely dismissed the first half of the verses you just quoted or alluded to.

 

[elman]

Why makes you think i am resisting anything? as I specifically pointed out to you several times that good deeds are not a sin, nor are they they the key to righteousness before the Lord. Good works are simply the Hallmarks of a solid faith. We are not saved because of our Good works, we are saved to do good works.

When you talk of work based faith, are you talking of a love based faith? What makes our Works "Good" are the effect of salvation. Good works are not the cause of salvation, less you have completely dismissed the first half of the verses you just quoted or alluded to.

Was the Good Samaritan saved? What makes our works good is their being loving actions on behalf of others. This is a man made idea that a person must believe in Jesus Christ as you believe in order to show love to others. It is not true and it is not bibical.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

What I meant was that I went point by point and it was edited down by the website to a single "?" The last questioned I ask was the Mormon question. i ask the Mormon question because of your stout devotion to a works based faith.

Why do you believe in a works based faith if you haven't been "indoctrinated?" I have never seen such a devout belief in a works based faith out side of the movement.

I believe that anyone who does "good deeds" (according to the Bible), is doing moral good and it is meaningful and important regardless of their faith. I believe if an atheist helps a teenager who is struggling with a drug addiction, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Hindu puts his wife before himself in an important marital decision, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Christian goes on a missions trip to build an orphanage, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Muslim organizes a conference on mediation between Jews and Muslims, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a New Age pagan opens his doors to a homeless man on a cold night, he has brought glory to God.

I don't think I'm saying that this has any implications to whether they are "saved", "forgiven" or "allowed into heaven". Mainly because I'm hesitant to place any claims on who goes to heaven or who doesn't because it seems like such an unknowable. It seems even many Christians are hesitant to admit that all "Christians" go to heaven, but you can't really know who is a Christian and who is a "Christian" so that too is an unknowable.

So rather than worrying about who is saved or not, I would rather work on bringing glory to God through works: tangible, selfless, heart-felt acts that bring meaningful difference to other people's lives and spread love and compassion to all corners of the Earth. And if I believe if everyone strove to do this at all times, the world would indeed be a better place.

Is that the definition of a works-based faith? If so, then I guess that's what I believe. Not sure if I've been "indoctrinated" specifically by anyone; I've had very little contact with Mormonism aside from one friend. I'd say I'm much more influenced by Eastern mysticism and Buddhism (due to my parents) while maintaining that the moral guideline as exemplified and described by Jesus is the moral guideline I believe best aligns with God's moral will.

 

[drich0150]

Was the Good Samaritan saved?

In turn did those works ensure His salvation? your observation does not change or effect my post here. In that works are not the cause of salvation they are the hallmarks of it.

What makes our works good is their being loving actions on behalf of others. This is a man made idea that a person must believe in Jesus Christ as you believe in order to show love to others.

If by the words of Paul you mean "man made idea," then you are correct sir!

It is not true and it is not biblical.

I guess you haven't got to Eph 2 yet
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[drich0150]

I believe that anyone who does "good deeds" (according to the Bible), is doing moral good and it is meaningful and important regardless of their faith. I believe if an atheist helps a teenager who is struggling with a drug addiction, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Hindu puts his wife before himself in an important marital decision, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Christian goes on a missions trip to build an orphanage, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a Muslim organizes a conference on mediation between Jews and Muslims, he has brought glory to God; I believe if a New Age pagan opens his doors to a homeless man on a cold night, he has brought glory to God.

Then why not post your thoughts on a Muslim sight or a Hindu site? Why are we the only one's blessed" with your forced theology?

I don't think I'm saying that this has any implications to whether they are "saved", "forgiven" or "allowed into heaven". Mainly because I'm hesitant to place any claims on who goes to heaven or who doesn't because it seems like such an unknowable.

Again then why are you here? are you just trying to force your theology?

It seems even many Christians are hesitant to admit that all "Christians" go to heaven, but you can't really know who is a Christian and who is a "Christian" so that too is an unknowable.

Actually we have a very clear and set view of what it takes to get into heaven. We are just not appointed the final judge if a specific individual has met those requirements. Do not confuse the two.

So rather than worrying about who is saved or not, I would rather work on bringing glory to God through works: tangible, selfless, heart-felt acts that bring meaningful difference to other people's lives and spread love and compassion to all corners of the Earth. And if I believe if everyone strove to do this at all times, the world would indeed be a better place.

And if the bible says these acts are meaningless to God without atonement for your sin then what? Will you simply move on to one of those other religions gods? Why are you set on forcing your view on the God of the bible and His followers? If they are all the same god the why not move to a different religion? Why do you need the God of the bible to accept your theology?

Is that the definition of a works-based faith? If so, then I guess that's what I believe. Not sure if I've been "indoctrinated" specifically by anyone; I've had very little contact with Mormonism aside from one friend. I'd say I'm much more influenced by Eastern mysticism and Buddhism (due to my parents) while maintaining that the moral guideline as exemplified and described by Jesus is the moral guideline I believe best aligns with God's moral will

seeking a balance in your chi will not get you closer to Jesus. I too grew with "eastern" influences, but still do not let what i was influenced with change what the bible says about having a relationship with God through the atonement of Christ..

Honestly if you do not seek a relationship with the God of the bible on His terms then you will probably be happier returning to what you grew up with.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Then why not post your thoughts on a Muslim sight or a Hindu site? Why are we the only one's blessed" with your forced theology?

I am always intrigued by Christianity. I enjoy reading the Bible, going to church and going to Bible studies. I enjoy questioning various things about the faith but all too often, my questioning is not taken very kindly by Christians.

For example, you didn't actually address any of my questions about the subjectivity of Paul and the fact that he was a human being himself with flaws and interpretations. You just got defensive and thought I was Mormon. Was he not trapped in his own subjective mind like you and I? Could he not be subject to delusions or the influence of his upbringing or culture? I enjoy his writings, they are often great poetry with words that affect me in a meaningful way; but I still take them with a grain of salt, seeing God work through him but also pondering what is "true" and what is not.

Again then why are you here? are you just trying to force your theology?

Perhaps. Perhaps I am trying to understand why my "version" of Christianity is so illegitimate and "wrong" in a Christian's eyes. I believe in very nearly everything a Christian believes except for two important ideas which I believe came about after Jesus' life and death: atonement and the deity of Jesus.

I believe in the Lord's Prayer, the Sermon on the Mount, 1 Corinthians 13, and on and on and on.

And if the bible says these acts are meaningless to God without atonement for your sin then what? Will you simply move on to one of those other religions gods? Why are you set on forcing your view on the God of the bible and His followers? If they are all the same god the why not move to a different religion? Why do you need the God of the bible to accept your theology?

I have yet to find evidence that the Bible views morally good acts as meaningless. Jesus emphasized openness to all and made it very clear through stories such as the Good Samaritan, that anyone can do good for the glory of God, regardless of creed.

seeking a balance in your chi will not get you closer to Jesus. I too grew with "eastern" influences, but still do not let what i was influenced with change what the bible says about having a relationship with God through the atonement of Christ..

Honestly if you do not seek a relationship with the God of the bible on His terms then you will probably be happier returning to what you grew up with.

Christian exclusivity rears its ugly head.

Thank you for the conversation, if you are not willing to let me "explore Christianity" in the "exploring Christianity" sub-forum, then you don't have to respond to my posts and can simply ignore them.

Later

 

[elman]

quote=elman;56864230]
Was the Good Samaritan saved?

In turn did those works ensure His salvation? your observation does not change or effect my post here. In that works are not the cause of salvation they are the hallmarks of it.

The grace of God is the cause of our receiving the gift of eternal life--but we have no hope of receiving that gift if we do not love. First JOhn. Yes the Good Samaratin was not a Christian, not a Jew, but he had the hope of receiving the gift of eternal life.

What makes our works good is their being loving actions on behalf of others. This is a man made idea that a person must believe in Jesus Christ as you believe in order to show love to others.

If by the words of Paul you mean "man made idea," then you are correct sir!

Paul was a man and the man who interpreted Paul incorrectly to say that loving others is not a good work was also a man and mistaken.

It is not true and it is not biblical.

I guess you haven't got to Eph 2 yet
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Are you picking and chosing from the Bible? YOu pick this one and chose not to see the teachings of Jesus in Matt 25:31 and following. Properly understood this is not saying we are saved without loving others. The point is we cannot love others perfectly or enough to deserve eternal life. It will always be a gift, not earned wages. This does not say we can be pleasing to God without loving others and it does not overide First John that says we are lying if we claim to love God and do not love others.