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Righteousness of Men

leftrightleftrightleft

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Can not all righteousness be traced back to men's subjective minds?

And, as such, is it just an act of faith to say that these specific men in time and place had the knowledge of the exact things to write or say which were directly linked to God or "the divine"?

Paul, Muhammad, the Gospel writers, Buddha, Lao Tze, the Psalmists, Joseph Smith. All these people are men, like you and I, with minds and childhoods and subjective experiences growing up in a specific culture at a specific time. If you do not give yourself the authority to follow your own logic because you have not escaped the confines of your private and limited mind to access the unlimited and universal divine then why do you place your faith that these mere men did just that which you claim you cannot do?

As an example, Paul was a man. He wrote things down with authority: commands and directives. He was a leader. But is it on faith that you trust that his writings were not deluded by his subjective prison and is it on faith that you trust that he had an authority higher than yours so he was allowed to think for himself under the direction of God and reach purposeful conclusions but you are not because you must simply follow him on faith? Yet he was a mere man! So the righteousness of God that he proclaims has been traced back to one subjective mind of a man, no different, no more perfect, no less selfish, no less egoistic, no less driven by culture, no less driven by personal experience than you or I.

The same can be said of any spiritual writings. The source is a human being who is ultimately trapped in his own mind unable to escape subjectivity, just like you and I. A mere limited and private human mind in the seething masses.

All righteousness can be traced back to human minds. So do I not have the authority to claim that I have found a source of God and righteousness? For Paul did just that and was he not presumptuous or self-righteous to claim such a thing?
 

razeontherock

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Can not all righteousness be traced back to men's subjective minds?

All righteousness can be traced back to human minds.

It would seem, your question is not sincere. (?) Making statements is ok, but it is good if we own them.

So do I not have the authority to claim that I have found a source of God and righteousness? For Paul did just that and was he not presumptuous or self-righteous to claim such a thing?

Paul did NOT independently find a source. Everything he wrote was foretold, over a millenia before he was born. (Either that or he qualified it as his opinion)

Now I DO think you can "find a source." I just think it won't directly violate Scripture. (And by the time you get past the trappings of each system, I don't think you'll find the various Scriptures of different religions directly violating each other, either)
 
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solarwave

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All righteousness can be traced back to human minds. So do I not have the authority to claim that I have found a source of God and righteousness? For Paul did just that and was he not presumptuous or self-righteous to claim such a thing?

I largely agree with your post actually. Paul was a man limited to his culture to some extent. I think Paul may have been wrong about some things, but I also think that he was much closer to the divine than me and because of that he has more say in things of the divine than I do.

But times move on so I allow myself to think for myself, but hopefully be guided by the gospels and letters in the Bible, etc.

Paul claimed to have an encounter with the risen Christ and through a series of events after that concluded he was an apostle. :)
 
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drich0150

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All righteousness can be traced back to human minds. So do I not have the authority to claim that I have found a source of God and righteousness?
No actually it can't, and no you do not. Righteousness is the standard in which God defines the actions of one who is in His Expressed Will. Again His expressed Will can only be found in the Bible. One can not simply generate his own version of Righteousness, and force God to adapt to it.

You are confusing Righteousness with your own sense of Morality. your Morality is one's perceived sense of right and wrong, whether that morality be derived of God's expressed will or whether your morality is your own, the two (True Righteousness and Morality) are not mutually exclusive. At best you have found a sense of morality, the fact the you have superseded God's authority and God righteousness with your own morality is makes your "morality" your version own personal version of righteousness. The two (God's righteousness and your own) are not one.

For Paul did just that and was he not presumptuous or self-righteous to claim such a thing?

The one thing you, Joseph Smith, Gandhi, Buddha, do not have that Paul did was/is a relationship with the Holy Spirit through the Blood of Christ.
 
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ephraimanesti

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Can not all righteousness be traced back to men's subjective minds?
Does it appear so as you look at our world crumbling around us? "Human righteousness" is the ultimate oxymoron.

As Scripture states, over and over, "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT IN THE END IT LEADS TO DEATH." (Proverbs 14:12)

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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elman

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Does it appear so as you look at our world crumbling around us? "Human righteousness" is the ultimate oxymoron.

As Scripture states, over and over, "THERE IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT IN THE END IT LEADS TO DEATH." (Proverbs 14:12)

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
Can you not see loving actions by men all around you? How can righteousness be seen where there are no poeple?
 
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Lukaris

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I think most of the sages would agree that there is an uncreated code of right & wrong realized by lucid people from our subconscious I presume. C.S. Lewis wrote about this in his book: The Abolition of Man & noted common basic understandings between the Judeo-Christian, Confucian, & Hindu foundations & that the modern concept of subjectivity re right & wrong may serve to undermine the very basis of what has produced basic understandings to not steal, kill, lie etc. & to treat others as ourselves within these values. Lewis being a veteran of the 1st World War & living through WW II fully realized that the world is brutal even within the basic values but human nature could be totally unhinged by trying to substitute new & improved subjective wisdoms like Marxism, Fascism, etc. that sought to replace & reorder human existence.

Despite our fallen state, we as Christians realize that the positive aspects of the natural law (see Romans 2:6-16, Phillipians 4:18, Beatitudes etc.) did not totally disappear with the fall of Adam. It is from this foundation that we have that God gives us salvation through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. It is from this foundation that other religions, wisdoms etc. came until the modern era. It is by faith we know Christ.
 
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elman

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I think most of the sages would agree that there is an uncreated code of right & wrong realized by lucid people from our subconscious I presume. C.S. Lewis wrote about this in his book: The Abolition of Man & noted common basic understandings between the Judeo-Christian, Confucian, & Hindu foundations & that the modern concept of subjectivity re right & wrong may serve to undermine the very basis of what has produced basic understandings to not steal, kill, lie etc. & to treat others as ourselves within these values. Lewis being a veteran of the 1st World War & living through WW II fully realized that the world is brutal even within the basic values but human nature could be totally unhinged by trying to substitute new & improved subjective wisdoms like Marxism, Fascism, etc. that sought to replace & reorder human existence.

Despite our fallen state, we as Christians realize that the positive aspects of the natural law (see Romans 2:6-16, Phillipians 4:18, Beatitudes etc.) did not totally disappear with the fall of Adam. It is from this foundation that we have that God gives us salvation through His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. It is from this foundation that other religions, wisdoms etc. came until the modern era. It is by faith we know Christ.
Original sin is a man made idea. The Bible says I am not responsible for any sin but my own and it is only my own sin that kills my soul. Ezekiel 18. I believe the uncreated code you refer to was written on the hearts of all human beings by God. Our hope for eternal life is connected to that code and our loving Jesus by loving others. Matt 25:31 and following.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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It would seem, your question is not sincere. (?) Making statements is ok, but it is good if we own them.

I started the post with a question and then had a series of points made a reached a conclusion based on my ideas. It was a question to all of you, the following post was my own experiences and ideas and then my conclusion is stated at the bottom. Its not that the question wasn't sincere, I do wish to here what you have to say on it and see that you give me counter-arguments to mine to see if you can dismantle my conclusion based on my arguments. Its standard rhetoric, not insincerity.

Paul did NOT independently find a source. Everything he wrote was foretold, over a millenia before he was born. (Either that or he qualified it as his opinion)

Just as an example, can you tell me the exact verse of scripture that foretells the command of 1 Corinthians 10:27? (I just flipped to a random page in the New Testament and did a quick scan for a command that Paul issues with authority that doesn't seem to have any prophetic backing.)

And why are his opinions still followed and included as a book of the Bible, God's word?
 
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ephraimanesti

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Can you not see loving actions by men all around you? How can righteousness be seen where there are no poeple?

The "loving actions" i see around me are few and far between compared to the pervasive veil of evil covering the world today.

The "loving actions" that do occur are generally echoes of our Judeo-Christian culture which most have rejected and which is crumbling before our very eyes. Looking at the world through rose-colored glasses only creates a fool's paradise instead of leading him the the real deal--i.e., righteousness engendered by the indwelling Holy Spirit within the hearts and minds of God's children.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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No actually it can't, and no you do not. Righteousness is the standard in which God defines the actions of one who is in His Expressed Will. Again His expressed Will can only be found in the Bible. One can not simply generate his own version of Righteousness, and force God to adapt to it.

Are you of the opinion that God's will or nature is not expressed anywhere else except in the Bible? If you climb a mountain you are not experiencing God, if you read CS Lewis are you not finding God's inspiration?

You are confusing Righteousness with your own sense of Morality. your Morality is one's perceived sense of right and wrong, whether that morality be derived of God's expressed will or whether your morality is your own, the two (True Righteousness and Morality) are not mutually exclusive. At best you have found a sense of morality, the fact the you have superseded God's authority and God righteousness with your own morality is makes your "morality" your version own personal version of righteousness. The two (God's righteousness and your own) are not one.

But what if my own "perceived sense of right and wrong" lines up with God's?

How do you define righteous? I define it as "morally right or justifiable; acting in an upright, moral way". Thusly, if I hug my mom and thank her for all that she has given me, in that instance, I am being righteous and loving.

Is it not possible for my perceived sense of right and wrong to line up with God's? And it that is an impossibility then that seems quite depressing.

The one thing you, Joseph Smith, Gandhi, Buddha, do not have that Paul did was/is a relationship with the Holy Spirit through the Blood of Christ.

But what if his relationship with the Holy Spirit was just a perceived sense of a relationship in his own subjective consciousness? It is on pure faith that you believe Paul had such an intense relationship with God.

And if I sincerely believe I have a relationship with God, how can you call me wrong while trusting that Paul is right?
 
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drich0150

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Are you of the opinion that God's will or nature is not expressed anywhere else except in the Bible? If you climb a mountain you are not experiencing God, if you read CS Lewis are you not finding God's inspiration?
No, absolutely not. What i am saying is that neither you me or anyone else (not even the pope) is immune to being influenced by their own versions of "God's nature" or righteousness. Where the bible comes in is as a standard to help us sift our versions and interpretations from His expressed Nature.

But what if my own "perceived sense of right and wrong" lines up with God's?
If it did it would seamlessly line up with Scripture. Now, What if it doesn't?
You would try and rewrite the bible to match your actions.
What more closely describes your situation?

How do you define righteous?
The bible describes Righteousness as the standard in which God defines the actions of one who is in His Will.

I define it as "morally right or justifiable; acting in an upright, moral way". Thusly, if I hug my mom and thank her for all that she has given me, in that instance, I am being righteous and loving.
You have defined morality here. I have already explained this in post number 4.

Is it not possible for my perceived sense of right and wrong to line up with God's? And it that is an impossibility then that seems quite depressing.
The fact that you are looking for righteousness in your sense or any sense of right and wrong, proves your ideals do not line up with that of God. He tells us true righteousness can not be obtained by us through works. true righteousness can only be obtained through atonement. He has provided this atonement through His son. He has also told us how to accept this atonement.

But what if his relationship with the Holy Spirit was just a perceived sense of a relationship in his own subjective consciousness?
Then it would not sinc up with the expressed will of God.

It is on pure faith that you believe Paul had such an intense relationship with God.
One of the same writers who established the deity of Christ established Paul's status as an apostle. so no.

And if I sincerely believe I have a relationship with God, how can you call me wrong while trusting that Paul is right?
Because the gospel writer of the book of Luke did not confirm your status as anything..

So what if I "believe" you do not have a sincere relationship with God? Does my "belief" have absolutely any bearing on the truth?

You may have a sincere belief that you have a relationship with God.

If it is as you say, and our beliefs carry the exact same weight, then why would you think your belief that you have a relationship with God has any bearing on actual truth?

We have the truth. Your truth does not align itself with the "truth" God has given us.
 
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elman

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The "loving actions" i see around me are few and far between compared to the pervasive veil of evil covering the world today.

The "loving actions" that do occur are generally echoes of our Judeo-Christian culture which most have rejected and which is crumbling before our very eyes. Looking at the world through rose-colored glasses only creates a fool's paradise instead of leading him the the real deal--i.e., righteousness engendered by the indwelling Holy Spirit within the hearts and minds of God's children.

:bow:ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim
Obviously both of our perceptions are subjective and flawed, but I believe the reality is much more loving and caring is going on around you than you recognize. I see you looking at loving actions and discounting them as being unworthy of praise. The sheep were surprised that their loving actions were seen by God as valid expressions of their love for God. Matt 25:31 and following. I think all loving actions are worthy of praise and respect.
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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Not according to Romans 5.

The phrase "original sin" never appears in the text in the Bible explicitly. The "idea" of original sin is man-made although what Paul describes in Romans 5 is essentially the idea that sin entered the world through Adam and it has been pervasive ever since.
 
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Spirko

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The phrase "original sin" never appears in the text in the Bible explicitly.

Neither does the phrase "Bible". And yet, there it is. A phrase describing a doctrine doesn't have to be included in scripture in order for the doctrine, itself, to be taught in scripture.

The "idea" of original sin is man-made

Then you are calling God a liar.
 
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elman

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Neither does the phrase "Bible". And yet, there it is. A phrase describing a doctrine doesn't have to be included in scripture in order for the doctrine, itself, to be taught in scripture.



Then you are calling God a liar.

No I am calling men mistaken in their theology.
 
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elman

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Verse, please.

The entire chapter is about the fact that we are not responsible for our father's sin and we are only responsible for our own sin. It is only our own sin that kills our soul. If we turn from wickedness to righteousness we will live and not die. If we do not turn from wickedness to righteousness we will die and not live.
 
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