"Right to Exist"?

[ArnautDaniel]

Can someone explain to me why Israel should care to negotiate with palestinian terrorists like hamas if they will not even affirm Israel's "Right to Exist" ? It seems like if something as basic as "I affirm your country's right to exist" is off the table, what's the point of negotiating with the palestinians?

Because no other country in the history of nation-states has ever asserted a "right to exist" nor made the acknowledgement of such a prerequisite of negotiation.

 

[Chipahualca]

Can someone explain to me why Israel should care to negotiate with palestinian terrorists like hamas if they will not even affirm Israel's "Right to Exist" ? It seems like if something as basic as "I affirm your country's right to exist" is off the table, what's the point of negotiating with the palestinians?

Do you even know what israel's "right to exist" contains ? did you even read the thread ?

 

[TheNewWorldMan]

All I know is I'm sick and tired of the Islamic fundies whining about how the world is out to get them. They are their own worst enemies, with their misogyny, wanton backwardsness and obsession with death and destruction.

When the Palestinians want to live more than they want Jews to die, then I'll support a Palestinian state.

 

[mbig]

Does that mean New York belongs to Israel also ? Does that mean Marseilles belongs to Algeria ?

NO, It Just means Jews were there in Good enough number for nearly 200 years to have a State: a Small sliver of the Ottoman Empire and smaller British Mandate.

Jerusalem was attributed international status by the UN in 1947, it's suburbs are part of Palestine, and not of israel. And that's just the way it stays until today, even though the jewish settlers commited the worst atrocities imaginable by man to make the original residents flee.

So you give the UN authority on this matter but NOT on establishing Israel ???(Resolution 181).

Nobody started the civil war between jews and muslims, it was a conflict started by a minority of jewish terrorists freshly emigrated from Europe and following the radical doctrines of Jabotinsky and the likes.

Actually it wasn't a Civil War as ALL the Local Arab States chipped in and They did most of the Fighting as soon as the UN resolution (creating Israel AND Palestine) was passed and Israel accepted and declared statehood.

Also worth Noting. There was NO 'palestine' (nor even 'palestinians') from 1948-1967 when Jordan controlled and ANNEXED the West Bank and Egypt Ruled Gaza.
in 1967 Israel won the West Bank from Jordan, NOT 'palestine'
'Palestine' not even mentioned in Resolution 242. (since it was assumed no one wanted such an entity)

Get your facts straight Yasser.

"...and these people indeed do have a right of return to their homeland according to international law,

NO they don't.

".... All that matters is that they were chased away from their homeland by jewish terrorists who now have the duty of settling them back into their homeland that has been stolen from them. It's israel's crimes, so israel has to get the thing straight. This is not in the responsibility of neighbouring nations, but israel's alone. That's the root and fuel of the palestinian conflict, and as long as israel remains a brutal and dictatorial apartheid regime, the mark of the devil will shine on american zionist foreheads.

Are Ya Sure Che?

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemmed to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".

- by Abu Mazen (ever hear of him?), from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976


"I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem,

- Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, in the Beirut newspaper, Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948


"The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."

- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954


"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees... while it is we who made them to leave...
We brought disaster upon... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave...
We have rendered them dispossessed...
We have accustomed them to begging...
We have participated in lowering their moral and social level...
Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon... men, women and children - all this in service of Political purposes..."

- Khaled al Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war



One morning in April 1948, Dr. Jamal woke us to say that the Arab Higher Committee (AHC), led by the Husseinis, had warned Arab residents of Talbieh to leave immediately. The understanding was that the residents would be able to return as Conquerors as soon as the Arab forces had thrown the Jews out. Dr. Jamal made the point repeatedly that he was leaving because of the AHC's threats, not because of the Jews, and that he and his frail wife had no alternative but to go.

Commentary Magazine -- January 2000

 

[DanielRB]

The Jews were there first. The historicity of Jews from millennia past in the land now called Israel is undeniable.

And let's not forget that Bill Clinton brokered a deal that would have given the Palestinians a state. They refused, opting to continue sacrificing Jews to Allah.

And let's also not forget that the worst enemy of the Palestinians is...the Palestinians themselves, with their Islamic fanaticism, and death-worship. While other societies accord respect to scientists, singers, authors, and statemen, Palestinians heap adulation on suicide bombers. Is it any wonder the rest of the world moves forward while "Palestine" withers?

Thanks for your post, TheNewWorldMan

Actually, the Jews weren't there "first". We know even from the Biblical record that it was settled first by the Cananites...but also that the Biblical record recorded their dispossession, and why they were dispossessed.

And it also records why the Jews were dispossessed the first and second times.

A side topic (not directly related to the OP) is this: why should Jews who disbelieve in the Messiah (and often disbelieve even in Torah or even God) have a "right" to the land of Canaan, if unbelief and disobedience was the reason for their dispossession?

At any rate, this thread is primarily about the political (not spiritual) justification for Israel--the "right to exist" is invoked politically, not spiritually.

Peace,

Daniel

 

[FrederickM]

In politics I'm much more pro- Middle East, I'm not saying Israel should disappear, but I think the way its going on now is not the right way. Jews have merely put the Arabs in the state they were before, which is wrong. Now those of you who advocate the 'Doesn't matter who's right but who is left' idea, stop joking me, Israel could not exist without foreign intervention(USA)

 

[Chipahualca]

Israel can exist on it's own - they have a massive stockpile of atomic weapons capable of worldwide overkill without even having signed the NPT. America's protection just keeps international law and UN pressure away from the war criminal israeli regime.

Without America's protection, Israel would have to abide by our values and western standards - but the US zionist lobby considers law and morality as a weakness when they are the target. And so the incredible injustice mass murder and apartheid goes on unpunished.

 

[FrederickM]

Israel can exist on it's own - they have a massive stockpile of atomic weapons capable of worldwide overkill without even having signed the NPT. America's protection just keeps international law and UN pressure away from the war criminal israeli regime.

Right because Israelites suddenly developed all that by themselves.

 

[whereisthetruth]

Read 'History of Israel' on Wikipedia. It's long, involved and complicated. No wonder it's a mess in the Middle East.

 

[mindlight]

There is a debate amongst Jews also about the nature of the Jewish state. Many religious Jews do not accept the state of Israel because it was established by secular means.

The fact that the modern discussions are focused on the right of Israel to exist says more about the unparalled levels of hatred in the Muslim /Arab world for a Jewish state of Israel. A great many Muslims simply cannot accept the existence of a Jewish state. It is this hatred, this religious intolerance that drove the Arab aggressions against Israel and which twists the minds of the Palestinians today.

Should Israel surrender the right to exist to such hate filled bigots - no of course not. Few of us have experienced the history of the Jews as a Jew does every day in Israel. The threat of new pogroms and even a new holocaust is always just around the corner whether in the deluded last smile of a suicide bomber on his way to hell or in the tank armies of hostile Arab powers.

And yet God has preserved this people through 3,000 years of such hatred , it is testimony to his promises and to his love.

Israel has a right to exist and to thrive. As someone said wisely earlier until Palestinians desire to live themselves more than to kill Jews I cannot see they deserve a state and fear the empowering them with one, since we would be releasing a great evil onto the world.

The thing is if the Palestinians ever did wake up to the way things work in this new world then they'd play Ghandi rather than Che Guevara. But their hate blinds them to wisdom so Israel does not have to change in response to a true moral challenge YET.

 

[whereisthetruth]

There is a debate amongst Jews also about the nature of the Jewish state. Many religious Jews do not accept the state of Israel because it was established by secular means.

The fact that the modern discussions are focused on the right of Israel to exist says more about the unparalled levels of hatred in the Muslim /Arab world for a Jewish state of Israel. A great many Muslims simply cannot accept the existence of a Jewish state. It is this hatred, this religious intolerance that drove the Arab aggressions against Israel and which twists the minds of the Palestinians today.

Should Israel surrender the right to exist to such hate filled bigots - no of course not. Few of us have experienced the history of the Jews as a Jew does every day in Israel. The threat of new pogroms and even a new holocaust is always just around the corner whether in the deluded last smile of a suicide bomber on his way to hell or in the tank armies of hostile Arab powers.

And yet God has preserved this people through 3,000 years of such hatred , it is testimony to his promises and to his love.

Israel has a right to exist and to thrive. As someone said wisely earlier until Palestinians desire to live themselves more than to kill Jews I cannot see they deserve a state and fear the empowering them with one, since we would be releasing a great evil onto the world.

The thing is if the Palestinians ever did wake up to the way things work in this new world then they'd play Ghandi rather than Che Guevara. But their hate blinds them to wisdom so Israel does not have to change in response to a true moral challenge YET.

Excellent post!

I agree that regardless of the 'rights and wrongs' of Israel's (re)establishment, it is they who have taken the positive approach and gotten on with building a prosperous nation, under the worst pressures of any nation on earth in recent history, just as in Ezra's time 'with a trowell in one hand and a sword in the other'.

If the Palestinians took a similar approach and just 'got on' with building their nation rather than being consumed with hatred, they would no doubt have a prosperous, and recognised, nation of their own by now.

Unfortunately in this world injustice is normal. It's how we 'play the cards we are dealt' that matters. Endless arguments about the rights and wrongs of Israel's existence are not going to change the fact that she is there, and there to stay. Jealousy and revenge are the most distructive of emotions, and the Arab/Muslim world appears to have made it an art form, not only directed against Israel, but against each other as well.

Remember, Islam was established by the sword, ant it still appears to be the only diplomatic tool they know how to use.

 

[DanielRB]

Excellent post!

I agree that regardless of the 'rights and wrongs' of Israel's (re)establishment, it is they who have taken the positive approach and gotten on with building a prosperous nation, under the worst pressures of any nation on earth in recent history, just as in Ezra's time 'with a trowell in one hand and a sword in the other'.

If the Palestinians took a similar approach and just 'got on' with building their nation rather than being consumed with hatred, they would no doubt have a prosperous, and recognised, nation of their own by now.

Unfortunately in this world injustice is normal. It's how we 'play the cards we are dealt' that matters. Endless arguments about the rights and wrongs of Israel's existence are not going to change the fact that she is there, and there to stay. Jealousy and revenge are the most distructive of emotions, and the Arab/Muslim world appears to have made it an art form, not only directed against Israel, but against each other as well.

Remember, Islam was established by the sword, ant it still appears to be the only diplomatic tool they know how to use.

Thanks for your post, whereisthetruth

Remember, the original founding of Israel some 3500 years ago was also through the sword, at God's command (though Muslims will say the same about the establishment of Islam). And even the modern state of Israel was founded in part by actions which could be called "terrorist" against the British.

Peace,

Daniel

 

[Chipahualca]

Don't forget jewish terrorism against the palestinians before and during the creation of israel.

 

[FrenchAffair]

Israel is surrounded by Nations who want to destroy them.

Israel asserts, ' Israel has the right to exist.' Israel guarantee's themselves that they will continue to exist and will fight to keep that right.

War decides who has the right to exist and who does not have the right to exist.

It is that simple.

Israel is surrounded by nations that wish to end the illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid imposed by the zionist entity.

 

[FrenchAffair]

[Only] ONE of those is Israel. Created by a Vote of the UN - Resolution 181- in 1948, Along WITH a Palestinian State.
Jordan

Jordan is not a Palestinian state & Israel declaired itself though war and genocide, not though a UN vote.

 

[FrenchAffair]

The above anaolgy is also Ridiculous as No One 'Invaded' Palestine.

European Zionists invaded Palestine. Who do you think occupies our land today? Europeans.

Any Displacements were the result of the Arab Started War. There was no 'Invasion' by Jews.

What is this a joke? Zionist started a campaign of terrorim in the 1920's aimed at dispalceing Palestinians from our land. It went right though to the end of WW2, at which point they turned their guns on the British authority as well.

After the 48 war they continued this campain of terrorism and ethnic cleanseing against Palestinans up to the late 60's. Then after the 67 war it has been systamatic system of evict more Palestinians, build more settlements.... it is simply low intensity ethnic cleanseing.

 

[FrenchAffair]

hough the Palestinians are talking about returning after a few decades, whereas the Israelis are talking about returning after twenty centuries. It's hard to see why the Israelis have more of a claim, unless you invoke a theological reason--i.e., God gave them this land, and they have the right to it, period.

Genetic studies show that less than 7% of European Jews have any linkage to the Semetic tribes. Most European Jews are decendents of the Kahars, a Northern Turkish kingdom that converted to Judaism in the 7th century. After it's fall in the 10th century the people used it's extensive trade routs to migrate and settle accrost Europe.

 

[whereisthetruth]

What is a 'nation' but a collection of people who share common religious, geaneological, cultural and economic ties. The 'Jews' have existed continuously throughout history from the time of Abraham. They were given the land of Israel by divine decree - the only final authority in existence, and it was to be for EVER. No other nation has such a right. If you are going to point the finger at who is right and wrong in regards to the way that the land is managed and ruled, no nation on earth has clean hands - PERIOD! Have any Arab nations ever treated other nations they occupied badly? What about Western nations? All are guilty before God! I don't agree with everything Israel does in Palestine. But I don't agree with alot of what happens in most parts of the world. I am Australian, and we have a very guilty past in regard to how we have treated our Aborigines, and judgement will come in due course. That is irrelevent. Ultimately it is God who establishes and removes nations. Israel will remain as long as God wants them there - and nobody is going to move them out unless - or until - He decides. End of story.

 

[DanielRB]

What is a 'nation' but a collection of people who share common religious, geaneological, cultural and economic ties. The 'Jews' have existed continuously throughout history from the time of Abraham. They were given the land of Israel by divine decree - the only final authority in existence, and it was to be for EVER. No other nation has such a right. If you are going to point the finger at who is right and wrong in regards to the way that the land is managed and ruled, no nation on earth has clean hands - PERIOD! Have any Arab nations ever treated other nations they occupied badly? What about Western nations? All are guilty before God! I don't agree with everything Israel does in Palestine. But I don't agree with alot of what happens in most parts of the world. I am Australian, and we have a very guilty past in regard to how we have treated our Aborigines, and judgement will come in due course. That is irrelevent. Ultimately it is God who establishes and removes nations. Israel will remain as long as God wants them there - and nobody is going to move them out unless - or until - He decides. End of story.

Don't forget that the same God who gave them that land also kicked them out of it twice before for their sin.

And everything that occurs is ultimately what God causes or allows. The existence of Israel and the wars against her ultimately are both because God allowed it (that is, if God is all-powerful and Soverign.)

And sure, no nation is "pure". But tu quotue arguments are fallacious, even if frequently used.

Peace,

Daniel

 

[whereisthetruth]

Don't forget that the same God who gave them that land also kicked them out of it twice before for their sin.

And everything that occurs is ultimately what God causes or allows. The existence of Israel and the wars against her ultimately are both because God allowed it (that is, if God is all-powerful and Soverign.)

And sure, no nation is "pure". But tu quotue arguments are fallacious, even if frequently used.

Peace,

Daniel

This thread is about whether Israel has a 'right to exist' as a nation where it is. In the murky history of mankind, what has always proven to be the most enduring defence of any nation's 'right to exist' has been it's ability to defend itself either legally or militarily, but ultimately it is military power that is the final decider.

The American native nations failed to defend their legitimate right to exist because of military inferiority, otherwise they would still be where they were. The same with Australia's aborigines, and with many other nations. I have never heard of any nation inviting a whole other nation to just come and settle in their space and take over, they always resist, whether successfully or not.

Ultimately every nation has to fight to continue to exist. Who is to be the arbiter in these disputes? The UN is hampered in this role by the power of 'veto' of the most powerful nations, who will defend their interests regardless of any 'justice' issues.

This is why my argument that God is the only final arbiter in such matters carries weight. It is he who appoints the times and boundaries of the nations (Acts 17:26). God has said that when He restores Israel, He will fight for them, and no-one will be able to prevail over them.

This may seem an overly simple argument to some, but history has shown this to be true. Which other nation has successfully re-established themselves in their original place after thousands of years of exile, amidst the determination of surrounding nations to prevent them, and has defeated a combined multi-national army many times their size in six days to confirm their national sovereignty!?