Right or wrong

[Fin1234]

Have you ever done any real studies of the martial arts? I'm just wondering because at the moment it doesn't sound like it at all. It just sounds like you are guessing.

I don't know what your background with the martial arts is, but I personally have studied the martial arts before. I am however behind on things big time because of a lot of time that I spent out on the road driving truck. I'm trying to get myself caught up, but it is not as easy as it sounds as I have run across a lot of stupid, ignorant and even downright dishonest or hostile people on the Internet and even in real life.

Because of that I am working on building better defenses so that I can try to overcome a lot of that crap. It's easier said than done though.

As far as Bushido is concerned the closest and most accurate description of it that I have found on paper is a book called 'Code of the Samurai' written by Thomas Cleary. There are a few other books as well, but many of the concepts that are found in this book are true.

Translating it into something that most Americans can understand is not as easiy as it sounds and that is something that I am currently working on.

The Samurai had the right ideas, but unfortunately it is not something that most Americans understand and that is why it needs to be translated a lot better than it has been so far.

The closest that I know of for translating it to the Bible relates to God's command that men be the leaders of their households and that they should be ready and willing to do what is right at all times.

If you look at the idealogy of both then you will see that princples of both the Bible and Busido are very similar. The only problem is that most people don't believe in the Bible anymore.

1. Have been doing martial arts since the age of 7; have travelled to china to train twice, Japan once, and the phillipines once. Now currently I am reading up on the history of the development of various martial arts and there distribution. The martial arts have always been and continue to be a huge part of my life.

2. You have to understand, as far as the samuria went, they were NOT nice people. Historically speaking they were noted for the lack of care they had for the people under there control.

"Do not use expletitives or speak rudely, such things are for low spearmen" - I'm trying to remember where that quote was from; but it illustrates the samuria's attitude to those less wealthy or of a lesser class than them.

Would you like to know how some Samuria practised cutting?

They would round up prisoners of war, or go down to the local jail, or if that wasn't an option; even pick someone of the street, tie them up, practise kata. Then kill that person. The effects were rather horrible if it was the Swordsmans first time killing; in which case it could take several blows for the victim to die.

Samuria also in alot of zen literature written by monks and other lower caste people are often depicted as they were known by the lower class people, aggressive, arrogant and un-forgiving. "Short tempered men with not so short swords" springs to mind.

Though a good note, is that Zen and Confusionism, became some influencual philosophies within Samuria culture, and led to some abandoning needless killing and adopting pacifism, and there are alot of recorded instances of Samuria -if there Diamyo would permit them and release them from service-, would seek to become monks. But that whole topic itself is a very controversial one, because alot of Educational aspects were admittedly included to help re-inforce the seperation between the samuria aristocracy and the lower castes. Literature became alot more important also as time went on and the Samuria developed and became for a large part Beaurocrats with swords, who went to tea ceremonies, official mettings while sending others out to die.

With the chinese MA scene; there is a lllooonnggg history between the Chinese martial arts and the criminal under-ground; and the phillipino arts are no better coming from a long tradition of street fighting and bitter family feuds.

Martial arts history isn't old man smoking on pipe beside water-fall; martial arts history is largely, man killing man.

----------
Should note asides from this; the martial arts are a fantastic way to build character and emotional strength.
--------

The Samuria did have respect, and they did what they had to do. It's just respect was only really for political and military superiors and doing what you had to do; was nothing more than obedience in following orders.

I think the first really honestly moral martial artists (morality being a key principle in the art) would probably be the Ninja.

 

[Received]

Call me a crazy hedonist, but I've gotta go with Nietzsche in saying that what determines our values is the feelings that follow behavior. The feeling can be superficial and fleeting, as with those who enjoy eating as the end all be all, or deep and psychological, as with those who enjoy the feeling of wholeness afforded by prayer or the intoxicating feeling of having power over others.

Right and wrong are relative, but this doesn't make them non-hierarchical. Some systems of morality are quite simply better than others regardless of the individual who espouses them. I can say, without blinking an eye, that those associated with a Latino culture which practices an authoritarian parenting style have values that are inferior to a value from another culture which practices an authoritative parenting style (where children's future lives are linked to higher autonomy and self-esteem, among other things). Now, each culture which holds each value (whether authoritarian or authoritative) might consider their way of parenting "right" and another type "wrong", but until both either weigh their parenting style values according to an agreed standard (such as science, which points to an authoritative style as superior) or compare the effects of their values on each other's children, they can't know which is better.

 

[rdonovan1]

1. Have been doing martial arts since the age of 7; have travelled to china to train twice, Japan once, and the phillipines once. Now currently I am reading up on the history of the development of various martial arts and there distribution. The martial arts have always been and continue to be a huge part of my life.

2. You have to understand, as far as the samuria went, they were NOT nice people. Historically speaking they were noted for the lack of care they had for the people under there control.

"Do not use expletitives or speak rudely, such things are for low spearmen" - I'm trying to remember where that quote was from; but it illustrates the samuria's attitude to those less wealthy or of a lesser class than them.

Would you like to know how some Samuria practised cutting?

They would round up prisoners of war, or go down to the local jail, or if that wasn't an option; even pick someone of the street, tie them up, practise kata. Then kill that person. The effects were rather horrible if it was the Swordsmans first time killing; in which case it could take several blows for the victim to die.

Samuria also in alot of zen literature written by monks and other lower caste people are often depicted as they were known by the lower class people, aggressive, arrogant and un-forgiving. "Short tempered men with not so short swords" springs to mind.

Though a good note, is that Zen and Confusionism, became some influencual philosophies within Samuria culture, and led to some abandoning needless killing and adopting pacifism, and there are alot of recorded instances of Samuria -if there Diamyo would permit them and release them from service-, would seek to become monks. But that whole topic itself is a very controversial one, because alot of Educational aspects were admittedly included to help re-inforce the seperation between the samuria aristocracy and the lower castes. Literature became alot more important also as time went on and the Samuria developed and became for a large part Beaurocrats with swords, who went to tea ceremonies, official mettings while sending others out to die.

With the chinese MA scene; there is a lllooonnggg history between the Chinese martial arts and the criminal under-ground; and the phillipino arts are no better coming from a long tradition of street fighting and bitter family feuds.

Martial arts history isn't old man smoking on pipe beside water-fall; martial arts history is largely, man killing man.

----------
Should note asides from this; the martial arts are a fantastic way to build character and emotional strength.
--------

The Samuria did have respect, and they did what they had to do. It's just respect was only really for political and military superiors and doing what you had to do; was nothing more than obedience in following orders.

I think the first really honestly moral martial artists (morality being a key principle in the art) would probably be the Ninja.

I think it is interesting that you bring up the Ninja as I happen to study to ninjutsu or at least I try to. At one time I was an over the road truck driver and while I was out on the road I bought the entire Black Belt Ninjutsu home study course from Shihan Richard Van Donk.

I also tend to live in a really bad neighborhood so I basically have to be on my toes about a lot of things.

With that being said I kind of wonder as to what makes you think that the Ninja was more honest than the Samurai.

I personally think that the Ninja were just less inhibited than the Samurai because they did not have to follow the code of bushido at all.

The Ninja was Japan's version of the Pirate while the Samurai was Japan's version of the Knight. The major thing that separated them from their European counterparts is their skill as they often spent more time focusing on combat arts than did their European counterparts.

 

[Fin1234]

I'm not a big fan of Richard Van Donk (I've heard some dodgy stuff about him) or any home learning, though on the same level I have heard a good amount of praise for him.

Though a GREAT book I can recommend is "The Essence of Ninjutsu" - Dr Masaki Hatsumi.

The Samuria were a warrior caste, it was rare for them to respect anyone outside of peers and authroties. The lower class majority, were not a factor to be considered.

The Ninja largely were free of the "honour" system, and were not "pirates" by any sense of the word. They were originally village people from mountains in Iga province -I think, though I'm not 100% on that one- A samuria warlord wanted to wipe them out becuase he ahd heard the men of Iga, although being famous for espionage were refusing to recruit into his army. The families couldn't in any way engage in warfare so they took up methods of stealth and mis-information to survive.

A large part of their culture revolved around avoiding killing, they were free of Diamyo and Shoguns so were free to make the choices THEY chose to. A good part of Taijutsu philsoophy arguably comes from the values held by the mountain people of Iga.

Why were they better than Samuria morally?

No Shoguns, Diamyo's or heavily en-forced caste system, largely pacifist and over-all, they are better than the Samuria on the grounds that there are few groups that can match the brutality of the Samuria.

*Should point out Nin-po is just combat, their is a lot more to the Ninja's training, including geography, medicine, influence, survival skills such as sheter building, swmming, horse-riding, climbing, astronomy etc

 

[Blackmarch]

Probably one of the oldest questions in the book, but I'll ask it again:

How do you personally figure out right and wrong?

A mix of What I feel, what I study, and what I know, and things I'd like to see achieved.

Do you believe only behavior is wrong but not thoughts and feelings?

no thought that leads to that behaviour can be wrong as well.

Furthermore, is our determination of right and wrong primarily subjective?

there is quite a bit of subjectivity, but is it all subjective? I doubt it.....

If so, don't other people have to be wrong in order that there is a right?

no.

But if it is all subjective then there's nothing that is ultimately right or wrong.. as long as one person can enforce/enact/convince others to adopt the same.... In which case i'm all for the one I hold.

 

[rdonovan1]

1. Have been doing martial arts since the age of 7; have travelled to china to train twice, Japan once, and the phillipines once. Now currently I am reading up on the history of the development of various martial arts and there distribution. The martial arts have always been and continue to be a huge part of my life.

2. You have to understand, as far as the samuria went, they were NOT nice people. Historically speaking they were noted for the lack of care they had for the people under there control.

"Do not use expletitives or speak rudely, such things are for low spearmen" - I'm trying to remember where that quote was from; but it illustrates the samuria's attitude to those less wealthy or of a lesser class than them.

Would you like to know how some Samuria practised cutting?

They would round up prisoners of war, or go down to the local jail, or if that wasn't an option; even pick someone of the street, tie them up, practise kata. Then kill that person. The effects were rather horrible if it was the Swordsmans first time killing; in which case it could take several blows for the victim to die.

Samuria also in alot of zen literature written by monks and other lower caste people are often depicted as they were known by the lower class people, aggressive, arrogant and un-forgiving. "Short tempered men with not so short swords" springs to mind.

Though a good note, is that Zen and Confusionism, became some influencual philosophies within Samuria culture, and led to some abandoning needless killing and adopting pacifism, and there are alot of recorded instances of Samuria -if there Diamyo would permit them and release them from service-, would seek to become monks. But that whole topic itself is a very controversial one, because alot of Educational aspects were admittedly included to help re-inforce the seperation between the samuria aristocracy and the lower castes. Literature became alot more important also as time went on and the Samuria developed and became for a large part Beaurocrats with swords, who went to tea ceremonies, official mettings while sending others out to die.

With the chinese MA scene; there is a lllooonnggg history between the Chinese martial arts and the criminal under-ground; and the phillipino arts are no better coming from a long tradition of street fighting and bitter family feuds.

Martial arts history isn't old man smoking on pipe beside water-fall; martial arts history is largely, man killing man.

----------
Should note asides from this; the martial arts are a fantastic way to build character and emotional strength.
--------

The Samuria did have respect, and they did what they had to do. It's just respect was only really for political and military superiors and doing what you had to do; was nothing more than obedience in following orders.

I think the first really honestly moral martial artists (morality being a key principle in the art) would probably be the Ninja.

I apologize for assuming that you did not know anything about the martial arts.

What martial arts have you studied and how far did you get in them?

 

[rdonovan1]

Bushido isn't a great place to start, and this idea that Martial arts is filled with respect and courtesy is non-sense now. And looking a the history of martial arts, it was back then as well.

The samuria were largely elitest, sexists and un-caring for the masses that were under there control.

Respect in Bushido, is more about earning respect and ensuring that your respect is maintained and giving respect to superiors. It was a way to help preserve the caste system and had little to do with a respect for human kind overall.

The Bushido really isn't a great place to get morals; a nice incite into the way the Samuria were suppossed to live. But not a great one for morals.

You may be right about Bushido not being the best place to start at, but whether we want to believe it or not many of the teachings of the chinese martial arts and Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid movies are right on point.

Bruce Lee pointed that out on numerous occasions and so have the Shaolin monks. You also see it a lot in Zen as well and it is not too far removed from things like what Emily Post talks about in her book about etiquette.

 

[rdonovan1]

I'm not a big fan of Richard Van Donk (I've heard some dodgy stuff about him) or any home learning, though on the same level I have heard a good amount of praise for him.

Though a GREAT book I can recommend is "The Essence of Ninjutsu" - Dr Masaki Hatsumi.

The Samuria were a warrior caste, it was rare for them to respect anyone outside of peers and authroties. The lower class majority, were not a factor to be considered.

The Ninja largely were free of the "honour" system, and were not "pirates" by any sense of the word. They were originally village people from mountains in Iga province -I think, though I'm not 100% on that one- A samuria warlord wanted to wipe them out becuase he ahd heard the men of Iga, although being famous for espionage were refusing to recruit into his army. The families couldn't in any way engage in warfare so they took up methods of stealth and mis-information to survive.

A large part of their culture revolved around avoiding killing, they were free of Diamyo and Shoguns so were free to make the choices THEY chose to. A good part of Taijutsu philsoophy arguably comes from the values held by the mountain people of Iga.

Why were they better than Samuria morally?

No Shoguns, Diamyo's or heavily en-forced caste system, largely pacifist and over-all, they are better than the Samuria on the grounds that there are few groups that can match the brutality of the Samuria.

*Should point out Nin-po is just combat, their is a lot more to the Ninja's training, including geography, medicine, influence, survival skills such as sheter building, swmming, horse-riding, climbing, astronomy etc

I have heard of the book that you are refering to, but as of yet I have not read it. I did however spend a lot of time reading Stephen K. Hayes's books back in the 1980's and I have read the book 'Against all odds' by Chuck Norris. That is a really good book and if you have not read it as of yet, then I highly suggest that you do so.

What I liked best about the book and that I found myself relating most to with him was as to how his father was never really around for him at all and because of that he had to learn right from wrong from many of the westerns.

I'm kind of like him in the sense that my father was never around for me at all and that I for the most part had to learn right from wrong from many of the martial arts movies and from whatever books I could find on the subject of the martial arts.

 

[Fin1234]

I started with judo for a couple of years as a child, studied akido for two years, then gathered 3 years doing Chan Quan Shu and also 3 years doing Kuk sool won (admittedly the place was a bit of a Mcdojo), about a year at school doing Muay Thai and Escrima, now I'm at uni studying Judo again, attending an MMA class where we are using a knock down karate system and some brazilion ju jitsu, I travel back home whenever possible to train with the Wing Tsun crowd back home. And I'm not offended it's perfectly fine

Films aren't really an accurate portrayal of martial arts culture, although alot of martial arts schools do promote pro-social behaviour. An example is the ninja, they have been portrayed in the media as care for nothing assasins, mercenaries and are often depicted as agents of evil and bad will.

Which is of course miles from the truth!

Although there is a definite morality in the buddhist traditions of chinese MA, there has always been a feeling that Kung fu and Taji are arts of the "ghetto" (regardless of there use in china's military history) that they belong to the lower class people whose lifes were often drowned in crime and feuds. In fact alot of older martial arts masters (and even some current ones) were nothing more than feudal age mafia.

Leung ting, in november last year spent two months in prison for beating up his girlfriend, and Bruce lee as famous as he was, was also a bully in school, and I believe he was expelled as such.

Martial arts can develop character, in discipline, bravery, pro-social behaviour, self confidence etc

But these are built through the training, not so much through the tennents of the art. Even the tennents of the martial arts them-selves historically and still nowadays were held to very religiously.

 

[rdonovan1]

I started with judo for a couple of years as a child, studied akido for two years, then gathered 3 years doing Chan Quan Shu and also 3 years doing Kuk sool won (admittedly the place was a bit of a Mcdojo), about a year at school doing Muay Thai and Escrima, now I'm at uni studying Judo again, attending an MMA class where we are using a knock down karate system and some brazilion ju jitsu, I travel back home whenever possible to train with the Wing Tsun crowd back home. And I'm not offended it's perfectly fine

Films aren't really an accurate portrayal of martial arts culture, although alot of martial arts schools do promote pro-social behaviour. An example is the ninja, they have been portrayed in the media as care for nothing assasins, mercenaries and are often depicted as agents of evil and bad will.

Which is of course miles from the truth!

Although there is a definite morality in the buddhist traditions of chinese MA, there has always been a feeling that Kung fu and Taji are arts of the "ghetto" (regardless of there use in china's military history) that they belong to the lower class people whose lifes were often drowned in crime and feuds. In fact alot of older martial arts masters (and even some current ones) were nothing more than feudal age mafia.

Leung ting, in november last year spent two months in prison for beating up his girlfriend, and Bruce lee as famous as he was, was also a bully in school, and I believe he was expelled as such.

Martial arts can develop character, in discipline, bravery, pro-social behaviour, self confidence etc

But these are built through the training, not so much through the tennents of the art. Even the tennents of the martial arts them-selves historically and still nowadays were held to very religiously.

I've never studied Judo, but I am very interested in things like Aikido and Hapkido. I've never trained formally in Aikido, but I have had classes relating to Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido. Where I'm orginally from most of the martial arts that were being taught were Korean in nature. There were some schools that taught some Japanese and Chinese stuff, but they were not as prevalant as the Korean stuff.

You're right about the movies, but you have to admit that they are fun to watch. Most of them are not very accurate depictions of the martial arts and the way things were in Japan and China, but there are a few that are.

The movie 'Shogun' however was pretty accurate when it came to depicting the life of the Samurai. It however was not very accurate at depicting the ninja. Many of the movies depicting the Shaolin martial arts were however very accurate and so was the Karate Kid movies.

One of the big things that was accurate with both the Karate Kid and Shaolin movies was the philosophies and spiritual training that went on and that is still very relevant today as it was back then.

The Shaolin stuff taught things like inner peace and self perfection for the most part. The emphasis for them was on mastery of oneself and the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment. The martial arts were taught to them and practiced by them as a way of improving their health and their bodies. The Shaolin systems were basically designed to keep the monks healthy and in physical shape as they were pretty much pacifists and would rather seek peace than a fight. Their stuff was more mental and spiritual than anything else.

The Japanese systems of Karate however had a different context in that their stuff was largely designed to be defenses against the Samurai as the Samurai were the only ones really allowed to carry weapons of any kind.

The ninja was a combination of both of them. The fighting skills were mainly developed out of Samurai and military tactics and ways and they often spent a great deal of time practicing that stuff largely in part because they had to. It was their only way of really defending themselves. They however prefered for the most part to train like the Shaolin monks and were often trying to develop their minds and their spirits.

There were cases were they did hire themselves out to be assassins and to committ espionage, but those cases are not like what the media portays them to be. They were for the most part rather exclusionary and prefered to keep to themselves by as much as possible and that is one of the reasons as to why it is considered a secret art. Unlike Karate and many of the other martial arts ninjutsu was developed out of and for combat and unlike many of the other martial arts like Karate and Kung Fu which have become commercialized, ninjutsu has remained a combat art and it is for that reason that you don't see ninja's at places like Karate tournaments.

Most of the original combat aspects of things like Karate and Kung Fu have been stripped out them to make them safer for sport competition and that is why the Do extension has been put there. Anything relating to real combat from Japan that is pure combat will have a jutsu extension and not a Do extension.

I know that a lot of people tend to place a lot of emphasis on the belt ranking system to determine how good they really are at any of the martial arts and while that may be helpful in the ring it is not helpful out on the street or on the battlefield as your opponent really is not going to care about stuff like that. All he wants to do is to stomp you and kill you if he can. That's why Mr. Miyagi said in the movie the Karate Kid that the purpose of a belt is to hold up your pants and he is right about that.

When it comes to actual fights it does not matter what is around your waist that matters the most. It's what you know and as to how good you really are at it. There's no points for second place in a real fight out on the street or on the battlefield at all. It's a winner take all, kill or be killed situation and that is one of the reasons as why it is so important that one has good morals and values because with knowledge of something like the martial arts comes power and like anything else it can be used for either good or evil just like a gun or a car.

I've been trying to explain this stuff to my father, but with little to no real results because he does not know or even understand what the martial arts are all about. To him what you see in the movies is the real deal and is an accurate portrayal of the martial arts.

Come to think of it I can probably use that same analogy but in a legal context to get him to understand things better as he is a lawyer. Surely he can't tell me that what I see on tv about lawyers is accurate or even very realistic at all.

 

[Fin1234]

1. I would love to do Hapkido someday! Same with Ninjutsu but I really need to find the time, like a good couple of years that I can dedicate towards it, but Aikido was really good fun and taught me some great principles in momentum manipulation which I still use to this day.

2. I can't really speak much for philosophies in Japanese arts, in Aikido there were no moral guidelines imprinted on us and with the Karate that we are doing at the moment our instructor just has us hit pads, jog and spar. What experiences have you had with moral training in Japanese arts?

3. Shaolin kung fu comes largley from meditation, the monks found that sitting still for large periods of time could lead to various health problems with blood restriction etc etc. So taji was developed to give movement to meditation and help defend the monks. Some of these temples would have a lot of gold in them or various valuable artifacts that may be moved to point A to B, so they were often the target of bandits and had to develop a way to defend themselves... ..I think also there was a case in history where a group of monks joined a generals army to help defend a peice of land.. however I can remember who exactly was involved in that...

4. Within Chinese MA, I can't recall any spiritual training, Chan Quan Shu was an internal art, so there was alot of breathing excersises and meditation involved in that, but I don't remember any ethical things being pressed upon me. The chinese MA's have there own culture, there is respect for instrucotrs and students alike, but it's alot more informal, the set of behaviour in a Japanese MA tends to be military like, where as I've found with the Chinese MA's it's more like a family.

Every time I go back home to train with the Wing Tsun school, I'm greeted like an family member, and I feel the same way about them. I think this is one of the reasons that martial arts develops good character. It can give people a shleter, a place where they "belong" even if they feel they don't belong anywhere else.

Could you point to the moral training you have found in MA? How is it conducted?

 

[rdonovan1]

1. I would love to do Hapkido someday! Same with Ninjutsu but I really need to find the time, like a good couple of years that I can dedicate towards it, but Aikido was really good fun and taught me some great principles in momentum manipulation which I still use to this day.

2. I can't really speak much for philosophies in Japanese arts, in Aikido there were no moral guidelines imprinted on us and with the Karate that we are doing at the moment our instructor just has us hit pads, jog and spar. What experiences have you had with moral training in Japanese arts?

3. Shaolin kung fu comes largley from meditation, the monks found that sitting still for large periods of time could lead to various health problems with blood restriction etc etc. So taji was developed to give movement to meditation and help defend the monks. Some of these temples would have a lot of gold in them or various valuable artifacts that may be moved to point A to B, so they were often the target of bandits and had to develop a way to defend themselves... ..I think also there was a case in history where a group of monks joined a generals army to help defend a peice of land.. however I can remember who exactly was involved in that...

4. Within Chinese MA, I can't recall any spiritual training, Chan Quan Shu was an internal art, so there was alot of breathing excersises and meditation involved in that, but I don't remember any ethical things being pressed upon me. The chinese MA's have there own culture, there is respect for instrucotrs and students alike, but it's alot more informal, the set of behaviour in a Japanese MA tends to be military like, where as I've found with the Chinese MA's it's more like a family.

Every time I go back home to train with the Wing Tsun school, I'm greeted like an family member, and I feel the same way about them. I think this is one of the reasons that martial arts develops good character. It can give people a shleter, a place where they "belong" even if they feel they don't belong anywhere else.

Could you point to the moral training you have found in MA? How is it conducted?

Every martial art has moral training behind it. If you get a chance to do so I would like to suggest that you check out a couple of books that I am familiar with.

1. Spirtual Practices of the Ninja.

2. Living the martial way.

3. Against all odds.

4. The warrior is silent.

5. The secret power within.

These are just some of the books that I know about at the moment that discuss it to varying degree's. I know that Bruce Lee also had a lot to do with it as well, but unfortunately I just don't have any of his stuff.

I do remember seeing a video in which he said to be like water, but at the moment I just can't remember what the name of it is.

I've also come across a few books that are similar to the martial arts, but that relate more to verbal self defense. If you're interested in knowing the titles of these books, just let me know.

Martial arts has always been important to me because it's been the only thing that I've ever had to take the place of my father not being in my life for me in a positive way.

I've found that by combining things like the martial arts, NLP and the game I can at least deal with it a little better. It's not the best but at least it's better than nothing. That's why I tend to take this whole business with the martial arts and the spiritual beliefs and philosophies that surround it so seriously.

Out of all the books that I have read so far the ones that seemed to help me the most are 'Against all odds' and 'The secret power within'.

I have not yet read the book about the 'Spiritual practices of the ninja', but I hope to someday.

If you ever get a chance to do so you might also want to check out the movie 'Bloodsport' with Jean Claude Van Damme. It's a really good movie and it's supposed to be based upon the real life events of Frank Dux. The facts behind the movie are probably bogus, but the movie itself is really good. I really like the part where he tells his shidoshi that he wants to learn. When asked why he replies 'You taught me to use any tactic that works, never to limit yourself to one style, and to keep an open mind'. That has to be one of the best lines in the entire movie.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The idea that people inherantly know what is right and wrong is evidently not the case as we see violence strife and trouble all over the world throughout history.
The causes of strife are poverty and want, greed, ideologies both atheist and religious.
The Bible tells us we have inherited the knowledge of good and evil as opposed to the knowledge of life (these were the two trees in the centre of the Garden of Eden)
This is a spiritual revelation. .. its makes sense to me and millions of others that the knowledge of good and evil, as opposed to God, is subjective.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The idea that people inherantly know what is right and wrong is evidently not the case as we see violence strife and trouble all over the world throughout history.

Doesn't that assume that people will never do what they know to be wrong?

The causes of strife are poverty and want, greed, ideologies both atheist and religious.

Also: Envy. Anger. Hatred. Righteousness. Authoritarianism. An Us-versus-Them mentality. Valuing a "greater good" over the goods of individuals. Irrationality. And many other sources.

The Bible tells us we have inherited the knowledge of good and evil as opposed to the knowledge of life (these were the two trees in the centre of the Garden of Eden)

Knowledge of life??? That's a spin I've never heard before.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[brightmorningstar]

To eudaemonist,

Doesn't that assume that people will never do what they know to be wrong?

Doesn’t it mean there are different ideas of what is right and wrong.

Also: Envy. Anger. Hatred. Righteousness. Authoritarianism. An Us-versus-Them mentality. Valuing a "greater good" over the goods of individuals. Irrationality. And many other sources.

yes.

Knowledge of life??? That's a spin I've never heard before.

Why would you see that as a spin when not all people can agree on what is right and what is wrong, they aren’t going to be able to agree on what is spin and what isnt.

 

[Eudaimonist]

To eudaemonist,
Doesn’t it mean there are different ideas of what is right and wrong.
yes.

Your interpretation is not the only one possible, which makes it not so "evident".

You are saying that violence makes it "evident" that people have no inherent knowledge of right and wrong. But this doesn't make it evident, since the world could (in theory) agree completely on issues of right and wrong, and yet some people might do wrong against their better judgment.

Why would you see that as a spin when not all people can agree on what is right and what is wrong, they aren’t going to be able to agree on what is spin and what isnt.

I'm talking about the Genesis story. I have never, ever heard of the Tree of Life being considered a source of knowledge, as opposed to a source of immortality.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[brightmorningstar]

To eudaemonist,
Doesn’t it mean there are different ideas of what is right and wrong.
yes.

Your interpretation is not the only one possible, which makes it not so "evident".

not necessarily, people have different ideas of what is right and wrong.

You are saying that violence makes it "evident" that people have no inherent knowledge of right and wrong. But this doesn't make it evident, since the world could (in theory) agree completely on issues of right and wrong, and yet some people might do wrong against their better judgment.

point taken, yes.

I'm talking about the Genesis story. I have never, ever heard of the Tree of Life being considered a source of knowledge, as opposed to a source of immortality.

Ah. I see. There were two trees, the tree of life which God said Adam and Eve could eat from and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God said not to eat from or it would lead to death.
I didn’t say the tree of life was a source of knowledge, nor does the text, there was the tree of life which they could eat from and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Fin1234]

Every martial art has moral training behind it. If you get a chance to do so I would like to suggest that you check out a couple of books that I am familiar with.

1. Spirtual Practices of the Ninja.

2. Living the martial way.

3. Against all odds.

4. The warrior is silent.

5. The secret power within.

These are just some of the books that I know about at the moment that discuss it to varying degree's. I know that Bruce Lee also had a lot to do with it as well, but unfortunately I just don't have any of his stuff.

I do remember seeing a video in which he said to be like water, but at the moment I just can't remember what the name of it is.

I've also come across a few books that are similar to the martial arts, but that relate more to verbal self defense. If you're interested in knowing the titles of these books, just let me know.

Martial arts has always been important to me because it's been the only thing that I've ever had to take the place of my father not being in my life for me in a positive way.

I've found that by combining things like the martial arts, NLP and the game I can at least deal with it a little better. It's not the best but at least it's better than nothing. That's why I tend to take this whole business with the martial arts and the spiritual beliefs and philosophies that surround it so seriously.

Out of all the books that I have read so far the ones that seemed to help me the most are 'Against all odds' and 'The secret power within'.

I have not yet read the book about the 'Spiritual practices of the ninja', but I hope to someday.

If you ever get a chance to do so you might also want to check out the movie 'Bloodsport' with Jean Claude Van Damme. It's a really good movie and it's supposed to be based upon the real life events of Frank Dux. The facts behind the movie are probably bogus, but the movie itself is really good. I really like the part where he tells his shidoshi that he wants to learn. When asked why he replies 'You taught me to use any tactic that works, never to limit yourself to one style, and to keep an open mind'. That has to be one of the best lines in the entire movie.

1. I can't say agree with moral training in MA, I haven't seen any of it, outside kids classes and that's just their to help draw parents into keeping their kids there.

Books are seperate to the martial arts themselves. An MA is a system or training regime designed to create someone skilled in killing, maiming and restraining another person (this person does not need to be an attacker)

But these Books, come from peoplewho have had experiences through mastery of their bodies and mental faculties and have written these down. In the same way many people say running is a spiritual activity. But only spiritual through human interpretation of it's effects. The activity itself is not a spiritual one.

2. Again, not a fan of Bruce lee when he wasn't THAT brilliant a martial artist and his very dodgy ethics as a person, a history of bullying others in his adolescance has put me off him as a person.

3. Best quote I've ever heard in a martial arts class, "Work (train) more, think less and you'll learn more"

^^ Experience leads to epiphany.