Right or wrong

[Im_A]

Probably one of the oldest questions in the book, but I'll ask it again:

How do you personally figure out right and wrong? Do you believe only behavior is wrong but not thoughts and feelings?

Furthermore, is our determination of right and wrong primarily subjective? If so, don't other people have to be wrong in order that there is a right?

Experiences and how it affects me is how I dictate the things that are, 'right' or 'wrong'. I also lean on the experiences of my family that they teach me. I consider the experiences of my best friends as a way to give insight. I also look at the insight of world I live in. How we as a species have evolved in our social norms, ethics etc.

It isn't perfect. I can't think of one time, that I didn't do something I disagreed that I wanted to do at the time. Where I come to a point of thinking I did wrong is by the affects. If I am convinced then I change my opinion, belief about that which I changed on.

In other words, I 'evolve' in my right and wrong. What I felt was right and wrong 10 years ago has changed. I don't worry who is right or wrong to justify my thoughts on what is right and wrong. I'm not in such an insecure place to have to know that every little thing I think is 'right' in some absolute sense. To me, the need to know is pathetic insecurity.

Thoughts and feelings are tricky to me. If one don't act on their what we consider wrong thoughts or feelings, then where is the judgment proven that they are things that can be consider right or wrong? Yet I would tend to believe that if certain thoughts and feelings can lead to wrong behavior, leading to a negative affect on oneself or others, negative affect defined by our own subjectivity, our collective views in society, social norms etc., then the thoughts and feelings could be considered wrong. That's about all I can say on your part on thoughts and feelings.

 

[Wayte]

I generally aim to help people. I try to avoid causing harm, though I invariably fail sometimes. I generally go with mor elogic than emotions, beingaware that emotions are easily swayed while logic, while flowing, at least demands things make sense.

 

[SithDoughnut]

I go with what feels like a good thing to do, and what feels like a bad thing to do, as I have nothing else to judge right or wrong by. Generally this depends on the situation. An action that is right in one context is probably wrong in another.

 

[rdonovan1]

From what I have seen most people really couldn't care less about what is right or wrong. I have noticed that not only in real life and on other websites, but even on Christian websites like this one and church itself.

People have stopped caring about what the Bible might say and have instead focused on what society or psychology tend to say. They have basically learned to be politcally correct and they take that very seriously.

The Bible has taken a back seat to it all even for people who claim to be christians and believing in something like the Bible generally gets people to think that you are psychologically disturbed somehow because the Bible is not politically correct.

God doesn't care about whether you are polically correct or not. He only cares about whether youi are doing the right thing and living according to his word and not the word of the world.

I don't remember where I saw it, but at one time I saw a passage in the Bible that said that according to God you are supposed to be in the world, but not of the world. So much for for Gods word as that seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird and for all practical purposes is extinct.

 

[Wayte]

From what I have seen most people really couldn't care less about what is right or wrong. I have noticed that not only in real life and on other websites, but even on Christian websites like this one and church itself.

People have stopped caring about what the Bible might say and have instead focused on what society or psychology tend to say. They have basically learned to be politcally correct and they take that very seriously.

The Bible has taken a back seat to it all even for people who claim to be christians and believing in something like the Bible generally gets people to think that you are psychologically disturbed somehow because the Bible is not politically correct.

God doesn't care about whether you are polically correct or not. He only cares about whether youi are doing the right thing and living according to his word and not the word of the world.

I don't remember where I saw it, but at one time I saw a passage in the Bible that said that according to God you are supposed to be in the world, but not of the world. So much for for Gods word as that seems to have gone the way of the dodo bird and for all practical purposes is extinct.

That is how social evolution works. The majority learn and advance their culture, while it seems the minority crosses their arms and insists the majority is just being "politically correct."

I find it hard to believe a truly wise creator would take issue with humans advancing socially.

 

[quatona]

From what I have seen most people really couldn't care less about what is right or wrong. I have noticed that not only in real life and on other websites, but even on Christian websites like this one and church itself.

You don´t like it when people disagree with you?

People have stopped caring about what the Bible might say and have instead focused on what society or psychology tend to say. They have basically learned to be politcally correct and they take that very seriously.

You are disappointed that the times when it was politically incorrect to contradict the bible have changed?

The Bible has taken a back seat to it all even for people who claim to be christians and believing in something like the Bible generally gets people to think that you are psychologically disturbed somehow because the Bible is not politically correct.

Personally, I don´t think the bible is politically incorrect. Rather, I think it´s flat out wrong on many accounts. Political incorrectness isn´t a problem for me, but I understand how and why you´d prefer to think that this is my objection (as opposed to listening to and addressing the objections I actually and really have).

God doesn't care about whether you are polically correct or not. He only cares about whether youi are doing the right thing and living according to his word and not the word of the world.

Now, if you theists could, for starters, come to an agreement concerning god´s opinions that might be a good starting point.

 

[rdonovan1]

That is how social evolution works. The majority learn and advance their culture, while it seems the minority crosses their arms and insists the majority is just being "politically correct."

I find it hard to believe a truly wise creator would take issue with humans advancing socially.

It's the people that have done that because they are afraid of ruffling anyone's feathers.

Society has not advanced socially. It's digressed instead.

 

[Wayte]

It's the people that have done that because they are afraid of ruffling anyone's feathers.

Society has not advanced socially. It's digressed instead.

Because it has gone a direction contrary to what was siggested in a time when slavery was ok, women were on par with property, and a person would be lucky to have a loaf of bread a day?

 

[rdonovan1]

I'm talking about society as a whole. If you look at the way society and even the churches are most of them will discourage you from really doing what is right and will even argue with you and even try to make you or others think that you are crazy.

Psychology itself tends to treat the Bible and everything that it contains as a psychosis and many of the churches tend to agree with them. Everything has become commercialized.

People have failed to follow the example of someone like Christ and those that think that they are following his example are too timid to act when they are wronged because they feel that is wrong.

I'm not going to claim that I know much about the Bible. All I know is that even Jesus at one time got mad. He was the type of person who did not care about whether he was politically correct and he didn't care about things like how much money youi made or even if people thought you were crazy.

He treated all people the same. He only cared about whether you were doing what God considered to be right or wrong. Everything else was irrelevant to him.

He also knew how to stand his ground against evil and those who would ridicule and persecute him. The kind of character and integrity that you saw in him is now gone even in the church and has now been replaced by what society and psychology says.

 

[rdonovan1]

Because it has gone a direction contrary to what was siggested in a time when slavery was ok, women were on par with property, and a person would be lucky to have a loaf of bread a day?

In my personal opinion people need to stop worrying so much about whether they are politically correct or not and they need to start focusing in on themselves trying to do what they know in their hearts is right and what Jesus would ultimately expect out of them.

I'm not against defending yourself at all. I in fact fully support it. Change however does not come from the outside. It comes from the inside.

I'm not basing any of what I am saying off of the Bible at all. I am going by what I know of the martial arts and the code of the Samurai. That is the only thing that I know for sure to be true. Everything else I have no idea about.

 

[SithDoughnut]

In my personal opinion people need to stop worrying so much about whether they are politically correct or not and they need to start focusing in on themselves trying to do what they know in their hearts is right and what Jesus would ultimately expect out of them.

I'm not against defending yourself at all. I in fact fully support it. Change however does not come from the outside. It comes from the inside.

I'm not basing any of what I am saying off of the Bible at all. I am going by what I know of the martial arts and the code of the Samurai. That is the only thing that I know for sure to be true. Everything else I have no idea about.

So your moral viewpoint is based off of some bizarre interpretation of Bushido? Ok...

You realise that Bushido doesn't really talk about change, right? The fact that it exists is evidence that morality can be externally influenced, and change can come from the outside.

 

[rdonovan1]

So your moral viewpoint is based off of some bizarre interpretation of Bushido? Ok...

You realise that Bushido doesn't really talk about change, right? The fact that it exists is evidence that morality can be externally influenced, and change can come from the outside.

I know the martial arts better than I know the Bible because it is one of the few things that I had growing up and it is nothing like you think it is.

It is based upon courtesy, respect, honor and things like that. The European version was called Chivalry.

In the Bible Jesus is the closest representation of what any of that means as he did not care about what others thought. He cared about what he knew to be right.

It's a little thing called morals and values and that is something that is sorely lacking in today's society.

 

[SithDoughnut]

I know the martial arts better than I know the Bible because it is one of the few things that I had growing up and it is nothing like you think it is.

It is based upon courtesy, respect, honor and things like that. The European version was called Chivalry.

In the Bible Jesus is the closest representation of what any of that means as he did not care about what others thought. He cared about what he knew to be right.

It's a little thing called morals and values and that is something that is sorely lacking in today's society.

Westernised martial arts do not necessarily follow the concept of Bushido properly - Chivalry is not the same thing, although it has its similarities. I agree with you, although you are missing an important point. The fact that you are following a concept created by others means that you don't just follow yourself, but also that code (or whatever you interpretation is). Even more importantly, Bushido emphasises submission to authority (although not blind submission). Again, this includes a viewpoint other than yours.

Bushido isn't about doing what you think is right, it's about doing what Bushido tells you is right. Otherwise why are you following it?

On a side note, how do you feel about Sepuku (i.e. Ritual suicide)?

 

[rdonovan1]

Westernised martial arts do not necessarily follow the concept of Bushido properly - Chivalry is not the same thing, although it has its similarities. I agree with you, although you are missing an important point. The fact that you are following a concept created by others means that you don't just follow yourself, but also that code (or whatever you interpretation is). Even more importantly, Bushido emphasises submission to authority (although not blind submission). Again, this includes a viewpoint other than yours.

Bushido isn't about doing what you think is right, it's about doing what Bushido tells you is right. Otherwise why are you following it?

On a side note, how do you feel about Sepuku (i.e. Ritual suicide)?

I don't believe in ritual suicde at all. I do however believe in being the best that you can be in life. Sitting around worrying about whether you are politically correct or not is no way to live.

The only way to live is to just take life by the you know what and to just say what the heck. It's kind of similar to the way that John Wayne and Rambo acted.

It's all about doing what you know is right and doing it. You may or may not agree with it, but you are doing it because it is right. That is a lot different than what most people do. Most people tend to supplicate. This is especially true of men and the dating scene. They have the disease to please and are afraid of acting like real men.

If you look at history and compare the Samurai with Jesus you will find that both were not afraid to do what they believed and knew was right and both were not afraid to die for it either.

I'm not going to claim to be a Bible expert, but from what I know of it based upon what I was taught by my strict Baptist grandparents and from what I have read in the Bible Jesus was definitely not someone to mess with. He was generally the nicest person that you would ever meet, but he like the Samurai had very definite boundaries set for them and he did not allow anyone to cross that line.

The Pastor at the the church that I have tried to attend in the past is able to explain it better than I can as he knows this stuff better than I do. I can only refer to what I know as best as I possibly can.

 

[Maxwell511]

What about psychopaths who do not seem to have a conscience? Did God make them that way?

God didn't give psychopaths a conscience, he gave them a police force instead.

 

[rdonovan1]

If you want real craziness, then check out what is happening in Burma. In that country the military is systematically killing men, women, and children for no reason at all. It is very disturbing to say the least and it should upset most normal people.

 

[Eudaimonist]

How do you personally figure out right and wrong?

I take a virtue ethics approach. Basically, I have a view of human flourishing and its requirements. Right actions tend to flow from a person of good character, and so I try to cultivate good character in myself. I see moral virtues as skills. I suppose that they are a bit like trying to learn how to ride a bicycle, and to make that second nature.

Do you believe only behavior is wrong but not thoughts and feelings?

Even with my agent-centered (as opposed to act-centered) approach to ethics, I think it would be odd to condemn someone for their thoughts or feelings. Yes, one could question how virtuous someone can be if their actions are not sincere, but I wouldn't say that someone is a bad person just for having "naughty" thoughts (that don't lead to actions) from time to time.

Furthermore, is our determination of right and wrong primarily subjective?

No, I think that this determination should be made regarding facts of reality, as they impact on one's life.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[rdonovan1]

What about psychopaths who do not seem to have a conscience? Did God make them that way?

The difference between a psychopath and someone who is morally apathetic is that the psychopath trully doesn't know right from wrong.

The person that is apathetic does know right from wrong but instead of choosing to do what is right they choose to do what is wrong because they think that they can do whatever they want and get away with it. They are more dangerous than the psychopath because they do not feel remorse for their words or actions. They are the ones that God warns about in the Bible and that God will destroy because they represent pure evil through and through.

A good example of what I am talking about can be found in the news reports from Burma where they are killing men, women, and children just for fun.

 

[Fin1234]

I know the martial arts better than I know the Bible because it is one of the few things that I had growing up and it is nothing like you think it is.

It is based upon courtesy, respect, honor and things like that. The European version was called Chivalry.

In the Bible Jesus is the closest representation of what any of that means as he did not care about what others thought. He cared about what he knew to be right.

It's a little thing called morals and values and that is something that is sorely lacking in today's society.

Bushido isn't a great place to start, and this idea that Martial arts is filled with respect and courtesy is non-sense now. And looking a the history of martial arts, it was back then as well.

The samuria were largely elitest, sexists and un-caring for the masses that were under there control.

Respect in Bushido, is more about earning respect and ensuring that your respect is maintained and giving respect to superiors. It was a way to help preserve the caste system and had little to do with a respect for human kind overall.

The Bushido really isn't a great place to get morals; a nice incite into the way the Samuria were suppossed to live. But not a great one for morals.

 

[rdonovan1]

Bushido isn't a great place to start, and this idea that Martial arts is filled with respect and courtesy is non-sense now. And looking a the history of martial arts, it was back then as well.

The samuria were largely elitest, sexists and un-caring for the masses that were under there control.

Respect in Bushido, is more about earning respect and ensuring that your respect is maintained and giving respect to superiors. It was a way to help preserve the caste system and had little to do with a respect for human kind overall.

The Bushido really isn't a great place to get morals; a nice incite into the way the Samuria were suppossed to live. But not a great one for morals.

Have you ever done any real studies of the martial arts? I'm just wondering because at the moment it doesn't sound like it at all. It just sounds like you are guessing.

I don't know what your background with the martial arts is, but I personally have studied the martial arts before. I am however behind on things big time because of a lot of time that I spent out on the road driving truck. I'm trying to get myself caught up, but it is not as easy as it sounds as I have run across a lot of stupid, ignorant and even downright dishonest or hostile people on the Internet and even in real life.

Because of that I am working on building better defenses so that I can try to overcome a lot of that crap. It's easier said than done though.

As far as Bushido is concerned the closest and most accurate description of it that I have found on paper is a book called 'Code of the Samurai' written by Thomas Cleary. There are a few other books as well, but many of the concepts that are found in this book are true.

Translating it into something that most Americans can understand is not as easiy as it sounds and that is something that I am currently working on.

The Samurai had the right ideas, but unfortunately it is not something that most Americans understand and that is why it needs to be translated a lot better than it has been so far.

The closest that I know of for translating it to the Bible relates to God's command that men be the leaders of their households and that they should be ready and willing to do what is right at all times.

If you look at the idealogy of both then you will see that princples of both the Bible and Busido are very similar. The only problem is that most people don't believe in the Bible anymore.