Rick Santorum is NOT a Conservative

[Lion Hearted Man]

Let's explore that worst-case possibility then:

A. Santorum --> Ten commandments

B. Ahmadinejad --> Sharia law


Not sure that's a really useful comparison you've made, Jase. Also, I don't believe that Santorum is interested in legislating morality ... though he is a strong advocate of moral behavior. There really is a difference - known as "separation of church and state".

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Okay, so what happens to all of us who do not believe in the Hebrew God?

Also, no work on Sundays? No coveting? Might as well destroy the economy as we know it.

And no adultery? While I don't think people should cheat, do you seriously think the government should punish it?

 

[Anovah]

I agree Santorum is not a perfect candidate, but he's the only one even close that has stuck in the race so he's all we've got and we need to support him.

Politics is like dating, if you're waiting for the perfect person to find you, you're very unlikely to get the perfect person. If you want the perfect candidate then you need to go online, find a candidate in your state or another state that has the perfect record and help them get elected. You can't sit on your ass for 4 years, then jump in to the political arena and start complaining there's no candidates you like. Get involved or you have only yourself to blame.

That should be his new campaign slogan. "Santorum, he's all we've got"

 

[NightHawkeye]

So...forgot that doing yard work on Saturday was punishable by death huh:

tulc(knows most people do)

Perhaps tulc doesn't understand Christianity nearly so well as he thinks he does.

Old covenant --> Judaic law

The Israelis don't even adhere to strict Judaic law, though some sects of Judaism are more strict than others.

New covenant --> tolerance, forgiveness, love and commandments as the path to God's kingdom ... in other words, an individual calling


Given that Christianity is all about the new covenant, I fail to see how all the flaming rhetoric about Santorum's religiosity is anything other than sheer hyperbole ... which is to say, completely without merit.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Perhaps tulc doesn't understand Christianity nearly so well as he thinks he does.

Old covenant --> Judaic law

The Israelis don't even adhere to strict Judaic law, though some sects of Judaism are more strict than others.

New covenant --> tolerance, forgiveness, love and commandments as the path to God's kingdom ... in other words, an individual calling


Given that Christianity is all about the new covenant, I fail to see how all the flaming rhetoric about Santorum's religiosity is anything other than sheer hyperbole ... which is to say, completely without merit.

New covenant =/= 10 Commandments

10 Commandments = part of the Old covenant

 

[tulc]

Perhaps tulc doesn't understand Christianity nearly so well as he thinks he does.

Old covenant --> Judaic law

The Israelis don't even adhere to strict Judaic law, though some sects of Judaism are more strict than others.

New covenant --> tolerance, forgiveness, love and commandments as the path to God's kingdom ... in other words, an individual calling


Given that Christianity is all about the new covenant, I fail to see how all the flaming rhetoric about Santorum's religiosity is anything other than sheer hyperbole ... which is to say, completely without merit.

Uhmmm...you said the Mosaic Law was pretty much like today's law (except for adultery) I was pointing out if we just lived by the 10 Commandments one of those Commandments was to keep the Sabbath and if you keep the Sabbath, that's part of the Sabbath Laws. That most of us don't remember that doesn't make it go away.
tulc(thinks someone who called President Obama an advocate of "totalitarian government" has little room to accuse others of indulging in "flaming rhetoric")

 

[Wolseley]

Santorum is a theocratic ultra social conservative. A very dangerous person. But apparently a lot of people here like the idea of the United States looking more like Iran under Ahmadinejad's rule.

Not as many as those here who want the United States to look like the Soviet Union under Stalin's rule....

 

[NightHawkeye]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Okay, so what happens to all of us who do not believe in the Hebrew God?

To be honest ... it's not really my concern. It's a voluntary call. Seriously. I don't have an obligation to force you to convert ... or to punish you for not converting. Even Mormon missionaries go away if you tell them to.

That restriction is even codified in the constitution. I do appreciate your concern though, being as so much of the constitution has been trashed recently.

I'll offer my own personal perspective ... as exemplified in the book of Micah.

Micah 4:1-13 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

The verse above talks about all men living in peace ... each looking to his own god. Though the book of Micah was written about 700 BC, it was Micah who, in the very next book, prophesied the coming of a messiah from Bethlehem. Don't read Micah 5 though ... you might not like it.

Also, no work on Sundays? No coveting? Might as well destroy the economy as we know it.

Meh ... there's always something to complain about.

As for coveting ... consider that in the old testament multiple wives were not unheard of. Just sayin'

And no adultery? While I don't think people should cheat, do you seriously think the government should punish it?

Think I already covered that ad nauseum ... Jesus didn't punish adultery.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

To be honest ... it's not really my concern. It's a voluntary call. Seriously. I don't have an obligation to force you to convert ... or to punish you for not converting. Even Mormon missionaries go away if you tell them to.

That restriction is even codified in the constitution. I do appreciate your concern though, being as so much of the constitution has been trashed recently.

I'll offer my own personal perspective ... as exemplified in the book of Micah.

Micah 4:1-13 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

The verse above talks about all men living in peace ... each looking to his own god. Though the book of Micah was written about 700 BC, it was Micah who, in the very next book, prophesied the coming of a messiah from Bethlehem. Don't read Micah 5 though ... you might not like it.




Meh ... there's always something to complain about.

As for coveting ... consider that in the old testament multiple wives were not unheard of. Just sayin'


Think I already covered that ad nauseum ... Jesus didn't punish adultery.

So what I'm getting out of this is that the only commandments that ought to be punished (as in, made into law) are thou shall not steal and thou shall not murder. This renders the Ten Commandments utterly pointless.

 

[NightHawkeye]

New covenant =/= 10 Commandments

Not entirely correct ... consider the last chapter in the last book of the Bible.

Rev 22:12-17 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
​

10 Commandments = part of the Old covenant

Being in the old testament does not mean they are excluded from the new covenant.

 

[Jase]

You do realize that you've made an absurd statement, right?

Probably not ... given your age ... so perhaps a little education is in order.

There are very few penalties of death in the Bible (unlike the Koran, but I digress ... ) In general, those offenses which carry a death penalty are the same ones as today, the notable exception being adultery. However, under Christianity a much higher level of tolerance emerged, which we live under today, as Jesus exemplified at the mount of Olives:

John 8:1-11 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
​

When Santorum says something really radical I'm sure that you will post it here so that we can see and judge it. Many will be interested ...

You are completely goalpost shifting. You were talking about the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments are the pinnacle of Jewish law, from which all other 603 Commandments fall under. The death penalty was given for several of the 10 commandments. The most obvious being the 4th Commandment, which everyone except Orthodox Jews breaks.

So if our laws were based on the 10 commandments, everyone would have to be executed. Christianity doesn't follow the 10 commandments, but that's not what you claimed.

 

[Jase]

Good thing we don't live under the Law, eh? Good thing Jesus didn't pick up a stone and nail the adulterous woman with it, eh? That play is really weak and old.

Did you too ignore the fact that Nighthawk said worst case scenario is we become bound by the 10 commandments?

Here it is:

Let's explore that worst-case possibility then:

A. Santorum --> Ten commandments

B. Ahmadinejad --> Sharia law

The 10 Commandments are Jewish law. And under Jewish law, breaking some of those commandments was a capital offense.

And Jesus didn't abolish the law.

 

[Jase]

No, Christianity and Islam are exact opposites, it's no coicidence either. The only unforgiveable sin in Islam is to believe God has a son. Hmm, wonder why? In the bible that is a definition of anti-Christ. Islam is the anti-religion religion. It teaches what not to believe.

Depends on what part of Christianity you're referring to. I consider Fundamentalism very much like Islam.

 

[Jase]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Okay, so what happens to all of us who do not believe in the Hebrew God?

Also, no work on Sundays? No coveting? Might as well destroy the economy as we know it.

And no adultery? While I don't think people should cheat, do you seriously think the government should punish it?

It's actually no work on Saturday (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). Sunday never has, nor ever will be the Sabbath.

But let us not forget honoring thy mother and father. Cursing one's parents was a capital offense under Jewish law. Or how about idolatry? That's a big one. Lots of Christians are in trouble with that one, since the Bible itself has become an idol among many Conservative divisions.

 

[Jase]

Perhaps tulc doesn't understand Christianity nearly so well as he thinks he does.

Old covenant --> Judaic law

The Israelis don't even adhere to strict Judaic law, though some sects of Judaism are more strict than others.

New covenant --> tolerance, forgiveness, love and commandments as the path to God's kingdom ... in other words, an individual calling


Given that Christianity is all about the new covenant, I fail to see how all the flaming rhetoric about Santorum's religiosity is anything other than sheer hyperbole ... which is to say, completely without merit.

Funny how most Christians don't follow the new covenant. They just throw Leviticus at gay people all day instead.

 

[Jase]

[/INDENT]
Being in the old testament does not mean they are excluded from the new covenant.

Only 5 of the 10 are in the New Testament. So no, the 10 commandments do not exist under the "new covenant".

 

[NightHawkeye]

Funny how most Christians don't follow the new covenant. They just throw Leviticus at gay people all day instead.

Now, if you had said "some" Christians, Jase, I'd have agreed with you.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Not entirely correct ... consider the last chapter in the last book of the Bible.

Rev 22:12-17 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
​

Being in the old testament does not mean they are excluded from the new covenant.

I would argue that Jesus never came to abolish any of the original Jewish laws. Matthew 5:18, after all.

It's actually no work on Saturday (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). Sunday never has, nor ever will be the Sabbath.

Thanks for the correction on Saturday being the Sabbath

 

[tulc]

Now, if you had said "some" Christians, Jase, I'd have agreed with you.

You don't think "most" is more accurate as then "some"?
tulc(would have objected to "all")

 

[NightHawkeye]

You don't think "most" is more accurate as then "some"?
tulc(would have objected to "all")

The Westboro Baptist Church only has forty members ... and I'd guess that to be an exaggerated claim.

Just sayin'

.

 

[Desk trauma]

In response to all the John 8 references, please look at the note in the margin of your bible. The story of the woman caught in adultery is not in the oldest documents, it is a later addition Jeus did not say that.