Richard Dawkins on God's behavior in the OT

[klutedavid]

Why what is?

Not to atheists, the ones I know.
I think Christians believe its a religion because they can't imagine anyone without religion. Maybe - explain why you think atheism qualifies as a religion.

Atheism could well be a religion.

Here is a definition of 'religion'.

Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. (Wikipedia)

So a worldview can constitute a religion by definition.

Since Atheism is a worldview, then Atheism is truly a religion.

 

[thomas_t]

Neither theists or atheists have clean hands but any signs of blood isn't automatically an indictment of their beliefs or lack thereof.

you're raising a very important point here.
I grew up in an environment in which the dominant religion was "everyone" : You have to conform to what "everyone" expects you to do. If you do things that "everyone" claims to be silly then, as this attitude goes, you MUST not do it. If in contrast "everyone" expects you to do something, then you MUST do it in order to fulfill the expectations of that religion.
Both believers and atheists adhered to that kind of strange religion. Germans ( and Dutch people) are said to be particularly prone to this sort of thinking. There are people emigrating solely becasue of this very attitude. They go to America, the so-called land of freedom.

When I converted to Christ in 2002, for the first time of my life I started to rebel and do things that "everyone" said were silly. Such as changing my work life. I became a musician. The hard-core conformists to "everyone" said I MUST not do this. I did it and subsequently had to face trouble.
The more modest adherents to "everyone's" views told me it was ok to become a musician but I MUST seek a proper education for my music but I wanted to follow my own thoughts and ideas. I had to run into a lot of trouble with them at that point. I think getting an education is good. But why make it a social norm. I had ideas on my own.

Later, in the churches I went to I was accepted for the first time in my life. Even if I did not conform to everyone's likes and dislikes. That was so important for me.
In churches, there is one rule, which is Bible. This is at least how it should be. And there is no requirement for musicians to get an education. I used to take piano lessons for 10 years, though.
That might be a very German story but I was glad to tell it here.

Thomas

 

[klutedavid]

If you count facebook likes, Dawkins is the most important atheist in the world.

Dawkins thinks God is a "vindictive control freak".
However, in this video LINK (see minute 1:14:16), Dawkins discusses rape in Judges 19 concluding "[the story] surely tells us something about the status of women in this religious society!".

In my opinion, Dawkins creates a perfect deadlock for God.
1) If God reacts Dawkins criticises him as being vengeful, if I understand Dawkins right.
2) If he does not then Dawkins criticises the behavior of "this religious society".
BTW in the video, Dawkins left out God's response to what happened in Judges 20.

God will always be wrong for Dawkins, I think.

Thomas

Never during my former life as a non-Christian would I have been one, to criticize the God of the Old Testament. What happens to Mr Dawkins, if the God in the Old Testament turns out to be the Lord of heaven and earth.

Why put yourself in such a high risk game?

Better off not passing any comment unless you know for certain that your correct. No one on earth has sufficient knowledge to answer that kind of question. Whether the God in the Old Testament is real or not.

Why can't a higher life form exist?

Mankind's knowledge is extremely limited and we really have no idea, what exists and what does not exist.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I don't know what Reddit is.
But I do get the feeling that you're VERY against religion. We Christians call this faith and not religion.
So, IOW, we believe that you're against our FAITH in God.

So why do YOU believe "religion" should be abolished from the face of the earth?

You can call it faith if you want, but it is still a religion.

I'm all for personal freedom, but I wish I'd live long enough to people freely let it go.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Why put yourself in such a high risk game?

Why play the game at all?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

You can call it faith if you want, but it is still a religion.

I'm all for personal freedom, but I wish I'd live long enough to people freely let it go.

You have!

 

[miknik5]

Atheism could well be a religion.

Here is a definition of 'religion'.

Religion is a social-cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. (Wikipedia)

So a worldview can constitute a religion by definition.

Since Atheism is a worldview, then Atheism is truly a religion.

But the definition for religion states a connection to a supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual...element.

What would that be for an atheist?

 

[klutedavid]

But the definition for religion states a connection to a supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual...element.

What would that be for an atheist?

Glad to be of assistance.

Spirituality
In modern times the emphasis is on subjective experience and the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."
(wikipedia)

 

[miknik5]

Glad to be of assistance.

Spirituality
In modern times the emphasis is on subjective experience and the "deepest values and meanings by which people live."
(wikipedia)

So itś actually worship of oneself?

 

[klutedavid]

Why play the game at all?

Yes Tinker Grey, that is what I said.

Why would Dawkins play such a high risk game?

Why does Dawkins play that game?

Dawkins does not know whether the story in Judges is true or not. Dawkins also has no idea whether or not, God is in the background of the Old Testament.

What happens if Dawkins is wrong and the account in Judges is true?

Can people be that stupid?

 

[klutedavid]

So itś actually worship of oneself?

Ask wikipedia.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes Tinker Grey, that is what I said.

Why would Dawkins play such a high risk game?

Why does Dawkins play that game?

Dawkins does not know whether the story in Judges is true or not. Dawkins also has no idea whether or not, God is in the background of the Old Testament.

What happens if Dawkins is wrong and the account in Judges is true?

Can people be that stupid?

Well, you're playing the game that Allah might not be real. Vishnu, Odin, etc., might be real. By some accounts Allah's hell is worse than YHWH's.

Hasn't anyone told you that Pascal's wager doesn't work?

 

[miknik5]

Ask wikipedia.

Thanks for the information

Spirituality implies a spirit.

 

[klutedavid]

Well, you're playing the game that Allah might not be real. Vishnu, Odin, etc., might be real. By some accounts Allah's hell is worse than YHWH's.

Hasn't anyone told you that Pascal's wager doesn't work?

You are mistaken on this point.

I do not play that game. I cannot affirm or deny the validity of the book of Judges. Simply because the question of the integrity of the account in Judges, cannot be answered.

Whether God exists or not, in the sense of knowing, is above my pay rate. I exercise a faith in Jesus Christ but I cannot know whether Jesus exists or not.

There is a difference between knowing and faith.

I am not a gambler.

 

[Tinker Grey]

You are mistaken on this point.

I do not play that game. I cannot affirm or deny the validity of the book of Judges. Simply because the question of the integrity of the account in Judges, cannot be answered.

Whether God exists or not, in the sense of knowing, is above my pay rate. I exercise a faith in Jesus Christ but I cannot know whether Jesus exists or not.

There is a difference between knowing and faith.

I am not a gambler.

Nor am I. I won't bet that a being will let me in to heaven for acting like I believe.

 

[klutedavid]

Thanks for the information

Spirituality implies a spirit.

You just contradicted wikipedia.

So now I ask you to provide the definition that your using.

 

[klutedavid]

Nor am I. I won't bet that a being will let me in to heaven for acting like I believe.

So you have no opinion on the account in Judges 19?

Do you support Mr Dawkins opinion on Judges 19?

As I previously said Tinker Grey. I believe in God and that is different to knowing that God exists.

Knowing means the state of being aware or informed.

Where as belief is based on a conviction rather than a formal proof.

You can know that the sun exists but you exercise faith in the existence of Dark Energy.

Two very separate words with different meaning.

 

[miknik5]

You just contradicted wikipedia.

So now I ask you to provide the definition that your using.

the same that you are, or have implied with your definition of religion from post 21...

either a person looks to and relies on their own spirit (that is, the inclinations of their heart and their mind) based on their subjective experience(s) and how these experiences appeal to their lower senses/emotions and which is validated by their lower emotions (again, their heart and their mind)...

or they look to and rely on a higher SPIRIT

And since when was Wikipedia the best source? I thought I have always heard that it wasn´t...

 

[miknik5]

Religion is defined as belief and worship in a god...

That is why I asked what is the spiritual connection for an atheist that would support the statement that this is a religion.

I don´t see it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

So you have no opinion on the account in Judges 19?

Do you support Mr Dawkins opinion on Judges 19?

I didn't read/watch Dawkins' opinion on the subject. The story itself seems out of context with the stories surrounding it. Certainly, the men who raped the concubine were evil. But surely the Levite who gave her up to them was evil. Instead of giving her succor and nursing her back to health (it is unclear from the passage whether this was possible) he cuts her up in pieces. From the passage, one cannot tell whether he killed her or not.

So we know that the Levite felt he could sacrifice his concubine to save himself as if she were no more than property. The passage indicates no more sorrow on his part than one might feel for lost property. Then he cuts her up with no more message in mind than "you guys suck."

As I previously said Tinker Grey. I believe in God and that is different to knowing that God exists.

I'm glad you acknowledge this, but I have no interest in that sort of belief.

You can know that the sun exists but you exercise faith in the existence of Dark Energy.

Two very separate words with different meaning.

Yes and no. There is something causing action in the universe. That something is happening is observed. Dark Energy is a place holder for whatever the cause might be. In one sense, dark energy is known. However, what dark energy actually is is unknown. The same is true for dark matter.

We know that this stuff is there. Any statement that asserts that it is X would be a belief. But, most physicist simply say "we don't know."