Richard Dawkins on God's behavior in the OT

[klutedavid]

Religion is defined as belief and worship in a god...

That is why I asked what is the spiritual connection for an atheist that would support the statement that this is a religion.

I don´t see it.

I see it a little different to you.

I see religion as more of a collective belief in a higher order, even a spiritual agreement on what is important. So would I classify the philosophy of Buddhism as a religion? Yes I would.

I regard all folk that do not deny the existence of God as religious.

To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. (American Atheist)

An atheist does not deny the existence of God, rather they lack a belief in God.

An atheist cannot deny the existence of God nor cannot anyone else. Mankind still has not worked out what causes gravity yet, working out whether God's exist, is far above man's limited abilities.

Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians, that there were over five hundred witnesses of the risen Christ. Do you believe that Paul was telling the truth to the Corinthians?

Or do you believe that Paul was lying to the Corinthians?

 

[klutedavid]

I didn't read/watch Dawkins' opinion on the subject. The story itself seems out of context with the stories surrounding it. Certainly, the men who raped the concubine were evil. But surely the Levite who gave her up to them was evil. Instead of giving her succor and nursing her back to health (it is unclear from the passage whether this was possible) he cuts her up in pieces. From the passage, one cannot tell whether he killed her or not.

I think she was dead on the door step when the Levite opened the door.

So we know that the Levite felt he could sacrifice his concubine to save himself as if she were no more than property.

I don't think the Levite had a say in the matter. The men just took her.

The passage indicates no more sorrow on his part than one might feel for lost property. Then he cuts her up with no more message in mind than "you guys suck."

I think he was upset and angry.

I'm glad you acknowledge this, but I have no interest in that sort of belief.

I do not need to believe Judges 19 as a true story or a false story either.

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the foundational doctrine of Christianity.

Yes and no. There is something causing action in the universe. That something is happening is observed. Dark Energy is a place holder for whatever the cause might be. In one sense, dark energy is known. However, what dark energy actually is is unknown. The same is true for dark matter.

The problem arises that science is all about observation, measurement, and experiment. Not filling in the gaps with unknown entities, next they will create a God to explain the movement of galaxies.

We know that this stuff is there.

No we don't, it may be a case that the scientific paradigm is not up to the task. Of understanding the universe.

Any statement that asserts that it is X would be a belief. But, most physicist simply say "we don't know."

Of course they don't know and they really have no idea. They are forced to create a source of energy unfortunately.

They also ran into a road block in subatomic physics. The Cern linear accelerator demonstrated particles whose behavior, was incomprehensible to the scientific world. I heard a professor say that not only is our science lacking but also mathematics cannot explain. The bizarre behavior of subatomic entities.

I like String Theory myself give me multiple universes.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I think she was dead on the door step when the Levite opened the door.

You can think that. It's a reasonable guess. But, it says he spoke to her and she didn't answer. So the text isn't clear. The text says she was alive when it was over. Verse 26: At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

Nothing about death in that.

I don't think the Levite had a say in the matter. The men just took her.

Come on, really? Verse 25: But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them

I think he was upset and angry.I do not need to believe Judges 19 as a true story or a false story either.

You can think that. But the text does nothing to indicate that he was angry or upset -- he just does stuff. Yes, I think very likely the whole story is just sort of some "just so" story. It's a very puzzling episode that conveys no lesson to learn. It seems a pointless inclusion.

Of course they don't know and they really have no idea. They are forced to create a source of energy unfortunately.

They didn't create a source of energy. They made an observation and gave the unknown a
placeholding name.

 

[miknik5]

The old man who hosted the levite sent the woman out...not the husband of the concubine. He did, when he awoke, and found her at the door unresponsive, take her body back and divided her into 12 pieces and sent to all the tribes of Israel...this was a somber moment for this man, a Levite, because he, as a priest before GOD was responsible and in service to the house of Israel...he earned nothing of his own, but received a 10th from each of the houses of Israel for his service as a priest...and if the land around Jerusalem were behaving in such a manner, then the Levite, understood that his service to the houses was not as effective as it should be...and he laid the guilt of this act on the house of Israel...

 

[miknik5]

I see it a little different to you.

I see religion as more of a collective belief in a higher order, even a spiritual agreement on what is important. So would I classify the philosophy of Buddhism as a religion? Yes I would.

I regard all folk that do not deny the existence of God as religious.

To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. (American Atheist)

An atheist does not deny the existence of God, rather they lack a belief in God.

An atheist cannot deny the existence of God nor cannot anyone else. Mankind still has not worked out what causes gravity yet, working out whether God's exist, is far above man's limited abilities.

Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians, that there were over five hundred witnesses of the risen Christ. Do you believe that Paul was telling the truth to the Corinthians?

Or do you believe that Paul was lying to the Corinthians?

I don´t know how to respond to your post...it doesn´t seem to have anything to do with my last post to you...

Further, you admit that to YOU, this is religion...but that isn´t what the definition for religion states, and which I remember has always been tied to a higher being.power.god...

Last of all, sir...your last few sentences, I am not sure why or how you even came to a conclusion or needed to post this...I am not even sure how it ties back to what we were discussing.

Please, do not offer opinions of me. I am not even sure how you came to that conclusion....


thank you

 

[miknik5]

I see it a little different to you.

I see religion as more of a collective belief in a higher order, even a spiritual agreement on what is important. So would I classify the philosophy of Buddhism as a religion? Yes I would.

I regard all folk that do not deny the existence of God as religious.

To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. (American Atheist)

An atheist does not deny the existence of God, rather they lack a belief in God.

An atheist cannot deny the existence of God nor cannot anyone else. Mankind still has not worked out what causes gravity yet, working out whether God's exist, is far above man's limited abilities.

Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians, that there were over five hundred witnesses of the risen Christ. Do you believe that Paul was telling the truth to the Corinthians?

Or do you believe that Paul was lying to the Corinthians?

What is the major difference between lack and deny? Will you say indifference and rebellion?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Further, you admit that to YOU, this is religion...but that isn´t what the definition for religion states, and which I remember has always been tied to a higher being.power.god...

Not always. Buddhism is considered a religion but does not god (though it might have a 'higher' power in karma).

 

[miknik5]

Not always. Buddhism is considered a religion but does not god (though it might have a 'higher' power in karma).

But who would be dealing out this Karma?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

But who would be dealing out this Karma?

Nobody. Karma is just a balancing of things. If anything the individual deals it out - their good works balancing their bad.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why what is?

Not to atheists, the ones I know.
I think Christians believe its a religion because they can't imagine anyone without religion. Maybe - explain why you think atheism qualifies as a religion.

What I meant is:
Why do you think atheists would like to see Christianity disappear?

I don't understand why we bother them so much.


As to religion:

Here is the meaning of what it means:

Definition of religion

1a: the state of a religiousa nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

sourece: Definition of RELIGION

Atheists have faith that God does not exist.
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for...
The conviction of things not seen.

Didn't Einstein have faith in the theory of relativity?

We all have faith in something or someone...
it just depends what.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You can call it faith if you want, but it is still a religion.

I'm all for personal freedom, but I wish I'd live long enough to people freely let it go.

There's a little difference between faith and religion.
Faith is something I have toward something or someone. I trust that person and believe in that person or that something.

Religion is something people do to try and be nice with God...they go to church, light candles to Buddha, make little rafts in the Gangi River...that kind of stuff.

But,,,,Tinker Grey....You're not answering my question but just keep repeating what you wish for.

You wish for Christians to disappear....
WHY???

Why do we bother you so much?
YOU don't bother me.....

 

[GodsGrace101]

Nobody. Karma is just a balancing of things. If anything the individual deals it out - their good works balancing their bad.

I don't believe it's a BALANCING as you've stated.
Good works do not balance out bad works.

What kind of a system would that be?
Who would have to figure out how much good we need to do to balance out the bad???

Karma is that you get back what you put out.
Or, as the Beatles put it:

THE LOVE YOU TAKE....
IS EQUAL TO THE LOVE YOU MAKE....

You put out love
you get love back.

You put out hate
you get hate back.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

I don't believe it's a BALANCING as you've stated.
Good works do not balance out bad works.

What kind of a system would that be?
Who would have to figure out how much good we need to do to balance out the bad???

Karma definition: (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

Nobody decides - it is just a determining factor for the next life. If you end up as an atheist, you must have lived a pretty horrendous life last time

 

[Tinker Grey]

There's a little difference between faith and religion.
Faith is something I have toward something or someone. I trust that person and believe in that person or that something.

Religion is something people do to try and be nice with God...they go to church, light candles to Buddha, make little rafts in the Gangi River...that kind of stuff.

But,,,,Tinker Grey....You're not answering my question but just keep repeating what you wish for.

You wish for Christians to disappear....
WHY???

Why do we bother you so much?
YOU don't bother me.....

I don't wish for Christians to disappear. I don't hate you. You don't bother me. As long as religious types don't attempt to mandate behavior based on their beliefs (such as prohibiting gay marriage), I'm happy to let you be.

My answer to the question as to whether humans would be better off without religion, is yes. The reason is that religions tend to teach unquestioning obedience. "God says go kill the Canaanites (so Josh says), so I guess Imma kill me some Canaanites." That's not to say that other ideologies don't do the same. Anyone pushing and ideology, whether Jim Jones, Stalin, Olsteen, or Ayn Rand, can and should be questioned.

I'm saying that a world without religion might might be better. It'd be better still if all were trained to examine the proposition put to them as well as the ones they were raised with.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I think she was dead on the door step when the Levite opened the door.I don't think the Levite had a say in the matter. The men just took her.I think he was upset and angry.I do not need to believe Judges 19 as a true story or a false story either.

I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the foundational doctrine of Christianity. The problem arises that science is all about observation, measurement, and experiment. Not filling in the gaps with unknown entities, next they will create a God to explain the movement of galaxies. No we don't, it may be a case that the scientific paradigm is not up to the task. Of understanding the universe. Of course they don't know and they really have no idea. They are forced to create a source of energy unfortunately.

They also ran into a road block in subatomic physics. The Cern linear accelerator demonstrated particles whose behavior, was incomprehensible to the scientific world. I heard a professor say that not only is our science lacking but also mathematics cannot explain. The bizarre behavior of subatomic entities.

I like String Theory myself give me multiple universes.

Why multi universes?
And the Cern accelerator cannot go back before the Big Bang...so was it all worth it?

I guess man has to do everything he can to find out our beginning when he does not have the answer.

So God always was and we can't understand that.
And anyway, what made God?

So something can't come from nothing, but here everything is.

Take your pick. I like number one.
God made everything...even mathematics,,,even science. Even all the very laws science depends on.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Karma definition: (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

Nobody decides - it is just a determining factor for the next life. If you end up as an atheist, you must have lived a pretty horrendous life last time

Paragraph one sounds good.

Don't you think that's different than when you said it was a balancing act??

(that we have to do good acts to make up for the bad ---I THINK this is what you stated).

 

[DaisyDay]

What I meant is:
Why do you think atheists would like to see Christianity disappear?

I don't understand why we bother them so much.

From what I have gathered, the ones who would like Christianity to disappear are the former Christians who feel like they've been harmed by the culture.

As to religion:

Here is the meaning of what it means:

Definition of religion

1a: the state of a religiousa nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

sourece: Definition of RELIGION

Atheists have faith that God does not exist.

Do they? Or have they merely concluded that from the evidence in their lives? That would also leave out all the agnostic atheists who believe that that can simply never be known.

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for...
The conviction of things not seen.

Faith is distinct from religion, although some people have religious faith, others have non-religious faith.

Didn't Einstein have faith in the theory of relativity?

Not as far as I know. He had theories and certain mathematical proofs.

We all have faith in something or someone...
it just depends what.

Yeah, I have faith that my dog won't bite me, but I don't make a religion of that.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't wish for Christians to disappear. I don't hate you. You don't bother me. As long as religious types don't attempt to mandate behavior based on their beliefs (such as prohibiting gay marriage), I'm happy to let you be.

I happen to agree with you 100%.
But there are a couple of problems with what you've stated above.

It's about the mandating of behavior.
You took the example of SSM.
I'd say the if two of the SS are living together, no one really cares. This has been happening from the dawn of time. I know for sure it was going on 2,000 years ago...ever been to Pompeii? Yeah,,, it was going on before Vesuvio blew up and buried it.
It's nothing new.

But SSM is. Marriage is not meant to be between two of the SS. And this is not a belief that only Christians or religious persons hold to. This is a Natural Law. I'm sure you're a nice person and I'm sure you believe in the Natural Law. Most civilized populations do. This is the belief that humans hold that allows us to grow better as time goes on...without these laws, chaos would ensure.
Some would be: murder, adultery, infanticide, stealing, etc. A society could not make progress without the Natural Law.

I don't think Christians believe in the Natural Law any more than an atheist does. I just think they believe in a spiritual being that created everything, including us. This is a personal belief.

You like history? Did Christianity have any affect on the uncivilized populations of the time before Christianity? Check it out. It's one of the main reasons we're better off today than 2,000 years ago.

My answer to the question as to whether humans would be better off without religion, is yes. The reason is that religions tend to teach unquestioning obedience. "God says go kill the Canaanites (so Josh says), so I guess Imma kill me some Canaanites." That's not to say that other ideologies don't do the same. Anyone pushing and ideology, whether Jim Jones, Stalin, Olsteen, or Ayn Rand, can and should be questioned.

Oh. An anti-authoritarian!
You got any kids?
That'll change your mind real quick.
Some obedience does have to be unquestioning.
The armed forces....soldiers.
And other examples.....If a plane is crashing you would tend to unquestionably obey the directions of the cabin officers.

We're kind of like a human race that is crashing...and God would like to show us how to live a better life so we could be better off.

I agree with you about Osteen, Jones, and those others you mentioned. Stalin killed about 20 million persons....Christianity can't even match that...counting the crusades.

Ayan Rand included.
Can we include William Golding?
Could we include Aldous Huxley?
George Orwell?

Do you think we'd fare better WITH Christianity or without it?

It seems to me men mess up really well.
Without God we'd be in a mess like the ones above within two generations if we removed God from our culture.

I'm saying that a world without religion might might be better. It'd be better still if all were trained to examine the proposition put to them as well as the ones they were raised with.

I've examined the propositions. I'll be most on these threads have. I don't know any true Christian that has not studied and examined Christianity before accepting it. I left the church I was raised with.

As to the O.T......
I'd save my breath speaking about it if I were you....
there are fundamental Christians that believe God WROTE the O.T. You know, sat down at His computer and printed that out. This is not how it is. I won't get into it because I don't know how interested you are...but not all theologians believe that God commanded men, woman and children to be slaughtered. And some other pretty nasty stuff.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Karma definition: (in Hinduism and Buddhism) the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

Nobody decides - it is just a determining factor for the next life. If you end up as an atheist, you must have lived a pretty horrendous life last time

Wait.
Do you believe in reincarnation or are you just stating what B and H beliefs are?

I think a Charismatic is Christian.

 

[GodsGrace101]

From what I have gathered, the ones who would like Christianity to disappear are the former Christians who feel like they've been harmed by the culture.



Do they? Or have they merely concluded that from the evidence in their lives? That would also leave out all the agnostic atheists who believe that that can simply never be known.

Faith is distinct from religion, although some people have religious faith, others have non-religious faith.

Not as far as I know. He had theories and certain mathematical proofs.


Yeah, I have faith that my dog won't bite me, but I don't make a religion of that.

Wow. Former Christians. That feel they've been harmed by the culture.. You mean church culture?
That's why we're supposed to depend on God and not on a church or a person like a pastor or preacher.

Of course atheists have faith.
Faith doesn't only have to be spiritual you know.
The atheist has faith that God does not exist.
It's the agnostic that is not sure and is willing to find out.

And if Einstein had mathematical proofs as you say (and indeed he did and it was proven correct) then that is MORE than faith! And he certainly had faith to be so sure of his math.

Don't you have a nice dog??
LOL