Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[vivid]

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

A series of parables ensues (including the one under discussion).

But then you already know how I see it, having posted on it before.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

 

[agape101]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

I forget the verse, but Jesus didn't speak to the masses except for in parable..., the reason was that those who were meant to understand would... plus- I don't think Jewish believers go to the chest cavity of Abraham when they die; I'm pretty sure that would be uncomfortable with more than a small child ;-) the reason there is a push to try to render this literal instead of parable is because it is the only reference that carries the term Hades and flame and torment with respect to eachother. Anyother reference to Hades is just plain realm of the dead and death, sheol (the grave). "death and hades give up the dead that are in them." Hades is compared to giving up it's dead along with the sea..., there it looks like it is referring to the earthen mass grave of the dead.

Now- as a parable- what does it mean?

I have heard an interesting take on it:

What does "rich" mean? The "rich" man called out to "father Abraham" that means he was jewish and of the chosen people.... Lazarus comes from the name Elizer- which was the name of a gentile servant of Abraham's.... Jesus is referencing the position of the spiritual richness of the faithful gentile servants who have been grafted onto the vine of Christ- and the unbelieving, although chosen, Jew. The "rich" chosen, yet unbelieving jew will be repentant beyond death where they will understand that only a drop of living water from the spiritually grafted beggar wil be enough to quench their thirst.

anyway that is the best interpretation I have seen; and it makes sense to me.

Even if it were literal it would show that hades can be a place of humbling and repentance- in that case free willers would have a hard time justifyng it as a place of chosen torment...

btw- torment carries the meaning of being tested as gold and silver are tested for purity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I forget the verse, but Jesus didn't speak to the masses except for in parable..., the reason was that those who were meant to understand would... plus- I don't think Jewish believers go to the chest cavity of Abraham when they die; I'm pretty sure that would be uncomfortable with more than a small child ;-) the reason there is a push to try to render this literal instead of parable is because it is the only reference that carries the term Hades and flame and torment with respect to eachother. Anyother reference to Hades is just plain realm of the dead and death, sheol (the grave). "death and hades give up the dead that are in them." Hades is compared to giving up it's dead along with the sea..., there it looks like it is referring to the earthen mass grave of the dead.

Now- as a parable- what does it mean?

I have heard an interesting take on it:

What does "rich" mean? The "rich" man called out to "father Abraham" that means he was jewish and of the chosen people.... Lazarus comes from the name Elizer- which was the name of a gentile servant of Abraham's.... Jesus is referencing the position of the spiritual richness of the faithful gentile servants who have been grafted onto the vine of Christ- and the unbelieving, although chosen, Jew. The "rich" chosen, yet unbelieving jew will be repentant beyond death where they will understand that only a drop of living water from the spiritually grafted beggar wil be enough to quench their thirst.

anyway that is the best interpretation I have seen; and it makes sense to me.

Even if it were literal it would show that hades can be a place of humbling and repentance- in that case free willers would have a hard time justifyng it as a place of chosen torment...

btw- torment carries the meaning of being tested as gold and silver are tested for purity.

Great post! Thank you

 

[Jpark]

Hello

I agree that there is a strong possibility that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

First, as my study notes put it, the main intent of this parable is to call those with a godless view of wealth and righteousness to repent and help others with their money.

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Second, according to my study notes, to a Jew Abraham's bosom suggests the honored place in Paradise, that is, the beggar received a special welcome in heaven and was seated besides Abraham.

However,

In Luke 16:26, the reference to a great gulf, that is, a firmament, indicates that this is not merely a parable, in my opinion.

http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/OTcosmos.jpg

Now does this mean Hades is a place of torment. No. Hades simply means the grave. In my honest opinion, Jesus was symbolically referring to the lake of fire, a spiritual location consisting of a lake and at the bottom of the lake, a special prison.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hello

I agree that there is a strong possibility that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

First, as my study notes put it, the main intent of this parable is to call those with a godless view of wealth and righteousness to repent and help others with their money.

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Second, according to my study notes, to a Jew Abraham's bosom suggests the honored place in Paradise, that is, the beggar received a special welcome in heaven and was seated besides Abraham.

However,

In Luke 16:26, the reference to a great gulf, that is, a firmament, indicates that this is not merely a parable, in my opinion.

http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/OTcosmos.jpg

Now does this mean Hades is a place of torment. No. Hades simply means the grave. In my honest opinion, Jesus was symbolically referring to the lake of fire, a spiritual location consisting of a lake and at the bottom of the lake, a special prison.

Thank you for very informative and edifying post dear friend
God bless

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hmm if it is a parable . then i would think it is at least what death was "like" before Jesus was risen from the dead .

in describing another world with the elements of this one .

all it can be is a similitude .

i would suppose the next question is:

Are the parables allegorical?

 

[angelmom01]

Hmm if it is a parable . then i would think it is at least what death was "like" before Jesus was risen from the dead .

in describing another world with the elements of this one .

all it can be is a similitude .

i would suppose the next question is:

Are the parables allegorical?

Aren't parables, by definition, allegorical?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hello

I agree that there is a strong possibility that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable.

First, as my study notes put it, the main intent of this parable is to call those with a godless view of wealth and righteousness to repent and help others with their money.

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Second, according to my study notes, to a Jew Abraham's bosom suggests the honored place in Paradise, that is, the beggar received a special welcome in heaven and was seated besides Abraham.

However,

In Luke 16:26, the reference to a great gulf, that is, a firmament, indicates that this is not merely a parable, in my opinion.

http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/OTcosmos.jpg

Now does this mean Hades is a place of torment. No. Hades simply means the grave. In my honest opinion, Jesus was symbolically referring to the lake of fire, a spiritual location consisting of a lake and at the bottom of the lake, a special prison.

Huh. Luke 16:26 (King James Version)

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Firmament means ground or heaven.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Aren't parables, by definition, allegorical?

well i'd think so . but .. i've heard varying schools of thought on how to and how not to interpret parables .

so i thought i'd clear the air . if anyone wanted to comment .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Huh. Luke 16:26 (King James Version)

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Firmament means ground or heaven.

Are you talking about the "chasm"?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472/
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

 

[Zeena]

Are you talking about the "chasm"?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472/
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

I think the 'chasm' might be synonymous with 'tartarus' or the 'abyss', rather than 'gehenna'..

See 2 Peter 2:4, for instance..

Also, Luke 8:31,Rev 9:1-2,Rev 9:11,Rev 11:7,Rev 17:8,Rev 20:1-3

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I decided to post this on this thread from another thread.
I was pretty much "flabbergasted" by it.
Are there any others here that view this parable as "gnostic rubbish?

Originally Posted by JudaicChristian

Lazarus and the rich man is Gnostic rubbish. Not scriptural. It is a contradiction to scriptures. There are a lot of things I am not allowed to speak of on this message board, because it is against the rules.

 

[Jig]

I agree that the stories found within the parables of Jesus are most likely a fictional construction. However, though the people never existed and the situation never happened, everything is still within the realm of possibility. It could have happened - it just didn't.

Jesus always referred to real locations and real geography. Can anyone, without referencing this parable (of the Rich Man and Lazarus), name one parable of Jesus that includes a false location or false geography?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I agree that the stories found within the parables of Jesus are most likely a fictional construction. However, though the people never existed and the situation never happened, everything is still within the realm of possibility. It could have happened - it just didn't.

Jesus always referred to real locations and real geography. Can anyone, without referencing this parable (of the Rich Man and Lazarus), name one parable of Jesus that includes a false location or false geography?

Never really thought about it.
Anyone here know of any?

 

[addo]

Taking the example of LittleLambofJesus, I though I could as well post links to studies or commentaries. There you go, about the Rich Man and Lazarus:

h t t p : / / w w w . t e n t m a k e r . o r g / a r t i c l e s / L a z a r u s - b y H u i e . h t m

Since I don't have enough posts, I cannot post links. So you'll have to delete all the spaces between the characters if you'll want to access it. Sorry. There is not other way, or at least I haven't found another way yet.

Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[Pythons]

The question should have been:


Rich-man and Lazarus......
...True story / Parable OR TOTAL FICTION?


To those who adhere to the teaching of soul-sleep as taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses......
......It would have to be fiction because Jesus never told a parable that was not possible.


Because soul sleep believers reject the story of the rich man and Lazarus as true or even possible....
....They are reduced to admit that Jesus had to use the 1st lie of the Devil to teach another truth!

 

[addo]

The question should have been:


Rich-man and Lazarus......
...True story / Parable OR TOTAL FICTION?


To those who adhere to the teaching of soul-sleep as taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses......
......It would have to be fiction because Jesus never told a parable that was not possible.


Because soul sleep believers reject the story of the rich man and Lazarus as true or even possible....
....They are reduced to admit that Jesus had to use the 1st lie of the Devil to teach another truth!

.... or He used total symbolism, as you see if you read the site I provided. He also said He is the door? Obviously, He is no door. He is a living being. A door isn't a living being. Is Jesus a liar because He is not actually a door (or gate)? No. It was a spiritual and symbolic talk. So it was with Lazarus and the Rich Man.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.... or He used total symbolism, as you see if you read the site I provided. He also said He is the door? Obviously, He is no door. He is a living being. A door isn't a living being. Is Jesus a liar because He is not actually a door (or gate)? No. It was a spiritual and symbolic talk.
So it was with Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Doesn't the book of Revelation also use a lot of symbolism?

THE SYMBOLISM IN BOOK OF REVELATION

*snip*

One man studied and found 348 allusions (not illusions, Light) in Revelation from the Old Testament. You see the similarity in wording and the context mirrored in Revelation and the particular Old Testament story, and immediately can recognize the reference source! That’s, IF you know the bible well enough to even notice that.

95 of the 348 plain references used in Revelation as taken from the Old Testament are repeated in Revelation. That makes about 250 Old Testament passages are cited. How many chapters are in Revelation? 22. That makes about TEN OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES FOR EVERY CHAPTER!

 

[JudaicChristian]

I decided to post this on this thread from another thread.
I was pretty much "flabbergasted" by it.
Are there any others here that view this parable as "gnostic rubbish?

Why would Yahshua tell a story that contradicts the Father and himself? Is it also a biblical teaching that all the rich go to Hell, and all the poor go to Heaven? It should be a no brainer that the story does not come from Yahshua.