Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Timothew]

Rich Man and Lazarus

 

[dollarsbill]

What about this no-names-rule they talk about?

Is there any rule that says a parable teller is prohibited from ever uttering a name during the telling of a parable?

She was only giving her opinion, no Scriptural proof. No proof has been presented that is a parable.

 

[Timothew]

She was only giving her opinion, no Scriptural proof. No proof has been presented that is a parable.

Yes.

Is there proof that it is not a parable?

 

[dollarsbill]

Yes.

Is there proof that it is not a parable?

Some of us believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said about eternal life and eternal punishment in the fire. Luke 16 is consistent with the NT doctrine of eternal punishment in the fire. God gave a perfect description of the eternal fire.

 

[Timothew]

Some of us believe that Jesus meant exactly what He said about eternal life and eternal punishment in the fire. Luke 16 is consistent with the NT doctrine of eternal punishment in the fire. God gave a perfect description of the eternal fire.

I see,

So it is just an opinion, no scriptural proof. No proof has been presented that it is not a parable.

 

[Azadok2day]

Coventile parable? What do you mean? :o

I was reading the translation above and no where does it say pained by flame in the KJV bible , keep using those newer bible where Satan had his children change the wording to decieve you all . God the father would never suffer one of his children to be eternally tormented in flames and if you think he would then you have no understanding of God . The lake of fire is for blotting out the wicked destroying them and their memory from all that knew them , by no means is it a place of eternal torment. Sad that Christians believe this .

 

[dollarsbill]

I see,

So it is just an opinion, no scriptural proof. No proof has been presented that it is not a parable.

It is a direct and HIGHLY detailed account of literal people by Jesus. Even the JW's who deny eternal punishment included it.

Luke 16 NWT
“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz´a·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’

It is indeed a literal account. It is HIGHLY consistent with the NT.

 

[Timothew]

It is a direct and HIGHLY detailed account of literal people by Jesus. Even the JW's who deny eternal punishment included it.

Luke 16 NWT
“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in Ha´des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz´a·rus in the bosom [position] with him. 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz´a·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz´a·rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and YOU people, so that those wanting to go over from here to YOU people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’

It is indeed a literal account. It is HIGHLY consistent with the NT.

I believe the reason that the JWs include this parable in their bibles is because this parable is in the original manuscripts. Of course, I don't know this for sure, since I am not a JW. I believe the Mormons also include this parable in their bibles. They believe in eternal torment. But I don't think that the quoted post means that because a fringe group believes something, that everyone who believes something similar is a member of that group. I go to the airport, but I am not a hari krisna.

 

[dollarsbill]

More from the NWT:

Rev 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Rev 20
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[Timothew]

More from the NWT:

Rev 14
9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of his wrath, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Rev 20
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I don't really like the NWT. It is inaccurate and biased towards their theology.

 

[ebia]

I don't really like the NWT. Why do you keep quoting it? It is inaccurate and biased towards their theology. Are you part of the Watchtower group?

Wondering that as well.

 

[Rick Otto]

unsubscribing

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What about this no-names-rule they talk about?

Is there any rule that says a parable teller is prohibited from ever uttering a name during the telling of a parable?

Originally Posted by dollarsbill

She was only giving her opinion, no Scriptural proof.
No proof has been presented that is a parable.
​

Yes.

Is there proof that it is not a parable?

It seems the fact that actual names are used in that story/parable is the only proof that those who believe it is not a parable use.
Lazarus, Abraham and Moses are used,

LUKE 16:30 "And he said, 'No father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " (NKJV)


though "5 brothers" are mentioned, but not by name. Here is one commentators view of who those brothers might be symbolizing:

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by spiritman

Coventile parable? What do you mean? :o​

I believe it is Covenantle story/parable.​

​

I was reading the translation above and no where does it say pained by flame in the KJV bible , keep using those newer bible where Satan had his children change the wording to decieve you all . God the father would never suffer one of his children to be eternally tormented in flames and if you think he would then you have no understanding of God . The lake of fire is for blotting out the wicked destroying them and their memory from all that knew them , by no means is it a place of eternal torment. Sad that Christians believe this .

Good post.
Here is how other popular Bible versions render that greek word

odunwmai <3600> (5743)

NKJV) LUKE 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "

Young) Luke 16:24 and having cried, he said, Father Abraham, deal kindly with me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and may cool my tongue, because I am distressed in this flame

NASB) Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The word rendered "torment" here is a form of the Greek verb odunao, which literally means "grief," "pain," or "suffering." Predominantly, it conveys the sense of mental anguish, not physical pain. Forms of this word are found only four times in the Scriptures, all in the writings of Luke. It appears twice in this parable, in verses 24 and 25.

In Luke 2:48, it is used to describe the anxious distress that Mary and Joseph felt after they discovered the 12-year old Yeshua missing on the trip home from Jerusalem after the Passover feast. In Acts 20:38, it depicts the sorrow the elders of the Ephesian Church felt at Paul's farewell announcement that they would never see him again.

The rich man cries out from the symbolic darkness of Hades for comfort because of the suffering caused by the flame. The explanation of the symbolism of the flame will require a little background information.

In Deuteronomy 11 and 28, Moses delineates God's part in His covenant with Israel. Moses told them that if they obeyed God, they would be the most blessed nation on earth. Conversely, if they disobeyed, God promised to curse and eventually destroy them because of their sins.

 

[Timothew]

LLOJ!

The parable is full of symbolism, and completely misunderstood if taken at face value. In fact, there is no way to take it at face value because the rich man is punished in Hades (Which nobody even believes in, except some non-christian greeks) before he is judged for his crimes, which are never stated. The rich man and the character of Lazarus go to the same place, merely separated by a gulf. Certainly nobody is suggesting that heaven and hell are in the same place. The Lazarus character is rewarded by going to the good part of hades (The nice section of Hell?), but he hasn't been shown to do anything other than beg and have his sores licked by dogs. The gospel takes a weird twist if this is not a parable, but a true story. The gospel would then be "If you beg for crumbs and get dogs to lick your sores, then you will go to the good part of hell when you die."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LLOJ!

The parable is full of symbolism, and completely misunderstood if taken at face value. In fact, there is no way to take it at face value because the rich man is punished in Hades (Which nobody even believes in, except some non-christian greeks) before he is judged for his crimes, which are never stated. The rich man and the character of Lazarus go to the same place, merely separated by a gulf. Certainly nobody is suggesting that heaven and hell are in the same place. The Lazarus character is rewarded by going to the good part of hades (The nice section of Hell?), but he hasn't been shown to do anything other than beg and have his sores licked by dogs. The gospel takes a weird twist if this is not a parable, but a true story. The gospel would then be "If you beg for crumbs and get dogs to lick your sores, then you will go to the good part of hell when you die."

I am busy posting on a Sabbath thread and was wondering if the "Rich Man" was a "sabbath keeper" who didn't keep it the right way?
The post I made on it is here if thou art interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7676096/#post61093371
What does keeping the Sabbath mean?

 

[pdudgeon]

MOD HAT ON

this thread is being TEMPORARILY closed for cleaning. when the cleaning is done the thread will be re-opened for continued posting.

mod hat off.

 

[pdudgeon]

MOD HAT ON

thread is now re-opened for posting. thanks for your patience.

 

[brinny]

I am busy posting on a Sabbath thread and was wondering if the "Rich Man" was a "sabbath keeper" who didn't keep it the right way?
The post I made on it is here if thou art interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7676096/#post61093371
What does keeping the Sabbath mean?

Awesome thought to contemplate. My hunch is that he was a sabbath keeper in the tradition of keeping sabbath's in that day. He dotted his "i's" and crossed his "t's", etc. He followed what was required to a tee.....yet, apparently his heart was amiss......*ponders on how that is possible*