Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[Timothew]

Are there other parables in scripture that give fictional characters names or is this "parable" unique?

This parable is unique in that it is the only one that has a name. The other parables are each unique in other ways. Is the parable of the prodigal son not a parable because it is the only one that has a son leaving his father and going off to another land and losing all his money and wanting to eat pig food? Show me another parable that has a person wanting to eat pig food! We might just as well have a "no eating pig food" rule as a "never use a name in a parable" rule.

 

[dollarsbill]

Where is the rule written that a parable can never use a name? Still waiting for the proof of this rule, and waiting...

It doesn't say nor imply being a parable. And so it is literal.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This parable is unique in that it is the only one that has a name. The other parables are each unique in other ways. Is the parable of the prodigal son not a parable because it is the only one that has a son leaving his father and going off to another land and losing all his money and wanting to eat pig food? Show me another parable that has a person wanting to eat pig food! We might just as well have a "no eating pig food" rule as a "never use a name in a parable" rule.

What about the lost sheep?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7306890/#post61045017

Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep.
Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"?

 

[weathered]

I would think it would matter to the Jews, since this parable is directed toward them, including the Pharisees

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page
Abraham's Bosom

*snip*

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him. Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees.

The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke. There are five stories which follow consecutively.
It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible.

At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable? The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"?

It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

Ok. Let me ask what doctrinal ax does the opposition have to grind? And what truth would be buried if this were called a true story instead of a parable?

 

[dollarsbill]

Ok. Let me ask what doctrinal ax does the opposition have to grind? And what truth would be buried if this were called a true story instead of a parable?

We could also ask why would Jesus make up such a horror story.

 

[weathered]

This parable is unique in that it is the only one that has a name. The other parables are each unique in other ways. Is the parable of the prodigal son not a parable because it is the only one that has a son leaving his father and going off to another land and losing all his money and wanting to eat pig food? Show me another parable that has a person wanting to eat pig food! We might just as well have a "no eating pig food" rule as a "never use a name in a parable" rule.

I guess im assuming that God actually made these things happen in order use them as parables. Kind of like the man who was blind and was healed by Jesus, the apostles asked what evil his parents did that he was blinded, Jesus said that he was blind so that he could be healed not because his parents did evil, or something like that. God always new the man would be blinded and that his story would be recorded in the bible. But that is pure speculation on my part and a stretch, but i just believe that God makes things happen just to use them as examples later on.

Maybe i misunderstand this scripture, i know im not exactly sure what they mean.

1Co_10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


And of course this KJV isn't the original language either that these scriptures were written in. Not sure if its different than the original.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by archierieus It is a parable, and it is not a description of hell. I will be getting back to this later today.

Dave

So did Jesus mislead us with the descriptions He used?

Go Cards!

Better yet, did He mislead the Jewish audience He was talking to.

From what I understand, Judaism has no concept of an eternal "hell" in their religion.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.
Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.

What I find interesting is that the Apostle Paul never mentioned "Gehenna" in his epistles

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995-6/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

We could also ask why would Jesus make up such a horror story.

Indeed.....

 

[weathered]

We could also ask why would Jesus make up such a horror story.

We are, but it seems a difficult question to easily answer, it would take an impartial and in depth study of Luke to answer it, having an open mind. And even then im not sure whether it can be proven to be parable or factual story, the story in question is surrounded by parables so they have a point, and then there is my theory that maybe even parables might be true sometimes.

This is why i wonder what ax both sides have to grind, so maybe i can find the truth somehow.

 

[weathered]

Better yet, did He mislead the Jewish audience He was talking to.

From what I understand, Judaism has no concept of an eternal "hell" in their religion.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell.
Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are erroneous and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what the Messiah was truly teaching.

What I find interesting is that the Apostle Paul never mentioned "Gehenna" in his epistles

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995-6/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

Indeed.....

Maybe this is the first they heard of hell, Jesus revealed many things to them that was never known before i think. If they didn't hear of eternal hell before then why did david Hope in the His salvation? What did he need saved from?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We are, but it seems a difficult question to easily answer, it would take an impartial and in depth study of Luke to answer it, having an open mind. And even then im not sure whether it can be proven to be parable or factual story, the story in question is surrounded by parables so they have a point, and then there is my theory that maybe even parables might be true sometimes.

This is why i wonder what ax both sides have to grind, so maybe i can find the truth somehow.

The same can be said about Republicans and Democrats

Luke 3:9 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Revelation 8:7 and the first messenger did sound, and there came hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast to the land,
and the third of the trees was burnt up, and all the green grass was burnt up.

 

[weathered]

The same can be said about Republicans and Democrats

Luke 3:9 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.
Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Revelation 8:7 and the first messenger did sound, and there came hail and fire, mingled with blood, and it was cast to the land,
and the third of the trees was burnt up, and all the green grass was burnt up.

Politics, what a scam. I actually once thought politics actually mattered. I guess sometime i tend to still think that way until i come to me senses again.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Maybe this is the first they heard of hell, Jesus revealed many things to them that was never known before i think. If they didn't hear of eternal hell before then why did david Hope in the His salvation? What did he need saved from?

Death and the grave?

Luke 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom,

Revelation 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen!
and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Revelation 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this [is] the second death;

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.

 

[weathered]

Death and the grave?

Luke 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom,

Revelation 1:18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen!
and I have the keys of the hades and of the death.

Revelation 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire--this [is] the second death;

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the House of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those from the nations who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe.

Isn't hell described as eternal death anyway? I don't want to be dead eternally anymore than i want to burn eternally. Either way we read that its good to save some with fear, snatching them out of the flames, whatever those flames may be. Does it matter if one thinks they are eternal flames of unending eternal punishment? Man has thought this way about hell for thousands of years, has it lead to repentance for some? Is this good or bad?

 

[Timothew]

We are, but it seems a difficult question to easily answer, it would take an impartial and in depth study of Luke to answer it, having an open mind. And even then im not sure whether it can be proven to be parable or factual story, the story in question is surrounded by parables so they have a point, and then there is my theory that maybe even parables might be true sometimes.

This is why i wonder what ax both sides have to grind, so maybe i can find the truth somehow.

The ax I ws referring to is the doctrine of eternal torment. The eternal torment side needs this parable to be a true story or they lose one of their "proofs". The non-eternal torment side needs this to be a parable, because if it is literally true it shows a picture of a man in torment in flames. I guess it's a two bitted axe.

 

[weathered]

The ax I ws referring to is the doctrine of eternal torment. The eternal torment side needs this parable to be a true story or they lose one of their "proofs". The non-eternal torment side needs this to be a parable, because if it is literally true it shows a picture of a man in torment in flames. I guess it's a two bitted axe.

Yes and im not sure who's right. I guess i don't care anymore. I just want to escape whatever hell is, i have known hell on earth, i dont want that eternally. I just want to live and be happy, it takes Jesus for this, nothing else can do this, everything else always ends in torment sooner or later.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Isn't hell described as eternal death anyway? I don't want to be dead eternally anymore than i want to burn eternally.
Either way we read that its good to save some with fear, snatching them out of the flames, whatever those flames may be. Does it matter if one thinks they are eternal flames of unending eternal punishment? Man has thought this way about hell for thousands of years, has it lead to repentance for some? Is this good or bad?

Those views are also a point of contention within Christianity

http://www.christianforums.com/t7611544-101/
Eternal Suffering or Annihilation

 

[weathered]

Lets talk about escaping hell on earth, that will get the worlds attention, let hell eternally be whatever it is, hell on earth is real and there is only one way to escape it, that is by knowing Jesus Christ, only he has brought me happiness. Without him to hope in i may not be alive today, and without his real presence in my life, his love and mercy i would be in the loony bin, no joke. Jesus saved me now, here on earth, i dont need to worry about hell any more. Im glad to know him. Tears of Joy replaced my tears of sorrow, even though i still encounter hardship it helps me become a better person, and will keep helping me, but without Jesus im better off dead.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lets talk about escaping hell on earth, that will get the worlds attention, let hell eternally be whatever it is, hell on earth is real and there is only one way to escape it, that is by knowing Jesus Christ, only he has brought me happiness. Without him to hope in i may not be alive today, and without his real presence in my life, his love and mercy i would be in the loony bin, no joke. Jesus saved me now, here on earth, i dont need to worry about hell any more. Im glad to know him. Tears of Joy replaced my tears of sorrow, even though i still encounter hardship it helps me become a better person, and will keep helping me, but without Jesus im better off dead.

Great testimony.
Now back to the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus

 

[weathered]

Great testimony.
Now back to the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus

And i cannot express enough how true it is. Jesus is my lifeline, my sanity, my savior and redeemer. If i were in church i would be singing praises to Him, i sing now in my heart and he is with me.

 

[weathered]

But yea, back to the topic.