Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[JudaicChristian]

The Lake of Fire is not depicted to be thrown into itself! What are you thinking in that statement?

Ultimately all sin, evil and DEATH will reside in that LAKE forever and ever...including the temporal purveyors of those powers, the devil and his messengers.

They are currently HELL ON EARTH...and they WILL GET their just rewards, permanently.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Where would that be located at according to the Jewish/Hebrew mindset?

 

[squint]

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Yeah. Most christians when they view HELL, they are viewing the matter above, THE LAKE, as the FINAL HELL.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Yeah. Most Christians when they view HELL, they are viewing the matter above, THE LAKE, as the FINAL HELL.

I am not aware of any Pagan or Christian teaching that there is more than one Hell.

 

[squint]

I am not aware of any Pagan or Christian teaching that there is more than one Hell.

Well, if HELL/HADES/GEHENNA is cast into the infamous LAKE at the end, what's yer beef again?

Here is a form of burning that goes on right now:

Matthew 12:43

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

If one applies the previously noted 'decipher' of parables, one might even see that the 'rich man' in the parable may have been going through a 'similar experience.'

Here is another form of burning that goes on presently:

Romans 12:20

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

I could make some interesting elaborations on what this latter means, but to understand that one has to understand who is having the fire heaped on them and where/how that happens.

s

 

[JudaicChristian]

Well, if HELL/HADES/GEHENNA is cast into the infamous LAKE at the end, what's yer beef again?

Here is a form of burning that goes on right now:

Matthew 12:43

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

If one applies the previously noted 'decipher' of parables, one might even see that the 'rich man' in the parable may have been going through a 'similar experience.'

Here is another form of burning that goes on presently:

Romans 12:20

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

I could make some interesting elaborations on what this latter means, but to understand that one has to understand who is having the fire heaped on them and where/how that happens.

s

The words coal and fire are often used to mean "judgement."

The word "sheol" in Hebrew literally means "grave." Hell is not a teaching of Judaism, it is of Pagan origin. The word "Gehenna" is a symbolic repersentation for destruction.
According to scripture Yahwah takes away the life of the condemned and they are no more.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and (grave) Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Death and the grave are done away with along with the condemned.
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Now since Yahwah kills the wicked, then how can anyone be alive in Hell to suffer. The dead know nothing.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Glad to see you 2 keeping this thread alive

 

[JudaicChristian]

Glad to see you 2 keeping this thread alive

Show me one place in the Old Testament where the word "Devil" is used.

 

[Pythons]

Show me one place in the Old Testament where the word "Devil" is used.

There are several,

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Satan IS "The" Devil.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

In other words EVERY time you read Satan in the Old Testament it's another way of saying "The Devil".

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Etc, etc, etc.

 

[squint]

The words coal and fire are often used to mean "judgement."

True. Associative meanings must be applied. Judgment itself can be also be a multifold matter. Matters of judgment unto correction, love, resistance, damnation, etc. Judgment does not automatically equate to 'bad only.'

The word "sheol" in Hebrew literally means "grave." Hell is not a teaching of Judaism, it is of Pagan origin.

Jesus also applied some of these terms in a wider array than the simplicity of a dead body in the ground. There are 'walking dead' and 'walking graves.' Very often these are matters of what is in the mind and heart more than a mere physical matter.

It is debateable to me whether the account in question even involved their actual physical deaths, seeing it as a parable. I say more than likely NOT.

The word "Gehenna" is a symbolic repersentation for destruction.

Of which same are usually temporal i.e. we have no account of the permanent death meaning 'eradication in total' via destruction of ANY evil spirit for example.

According to scripture Yahwah takes away the life of the condemned and they are no more.

Were any of these matters only so simple as to view them in regards to mankind only as that is almost NEVER the case in any of these matters, again using the decipher of all parables.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and (grave) Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Death and the grave are done away with along with the condemned.
Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
Now since Yahwah kills the wicked, then how can anyone be alive in Hell to suffer. The dead know nothing.

You have stretched several types of judgment into a single unit, which doesn't work. There are many types of 'continuing judgments' that are and have been employed during the course of human history ALL of which relate to 'evil powers' that are also in operation.

THEN, at the finality of these matters, there is the FINAL JUDGMENT. It is wrong to take what happened in prior judgments such as the flood or at S&G and make them fit the FINALE. The previous are figurative to the finale, but not the same. The finale will be LIKE the previous, only PERMANENT.

Anyone picking up matters of 'judgments' without a very broad range of understandings of the parties, the timeframes and the events and how they relate to each other will quickly come to many divisions none of which will mesh until broader pictures encompassing these matters come forth also.

When Jesus warned of the final judgment he pointed to both the flood (WATER) event and the S&G (FIRE) event. I won't deter any deeper into those matters as they are not relevant to the parable in question.

s

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

When Jesus warned of the final judgment he pointed to both the flood (WATER) event and the S&G (FIRE) event. I won't deter any deeper into those matters as they are not relevant to the parable in question.

s

Hi squint. While translating this parable from the Greek, an interlinear I used had "ferrying" for the greek word #1276 which I had never seen in translations.

Hebrew 11:29 mentions the Red Sea event and uses the greek word #1224, as does Luke 16:26. Pretty interesting

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

[JudaicChristian]

There are several,



Satan IS "The" Devil.



In other words EVERY time you read Satan in the Old Testament it's another way of saying "The Devil".





Etc, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by JudaicChristian
Show me one place in the Old Testament where the word "Devil" is used.
There are several,


Originally Posted by Job 1,6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Satan IS "The" Devil.


Originally Posted by Rev 12,9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
In other words EVERY time you read Satan in the Old Testament it's another way of saying "The Devil".


Originally Posted by 1 chron 21
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel
Originally Posted by Job 1,7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Etc, etc, etc.
The point I was trying to make is that the word "Devil" is not found in the Old Testament. And the only TRUE place may be Rev 12,9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[squint]

Hi squint. While translating this parable from the Greek, an interlinear I used had "ferrying" for the greek word #1276 which I had never seen in translations.

Hebrew 11:29 mentions the Red Sea event and uses the greek word #1276, as does Luke 16:26. Pretty interesting

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

You know lloj, the longer the Word is in us, the more interesting it becomes.

Yes! There was A GREAT CHASM of those WATERS on the RIGHT HAND and on the LEFT hand...very good...and DRY GROUND inbetween where they, the ISRAELITES could cross over but the EGYPTIANS could NOT...heh heh heh...you are getting quite adept, and not by accident!

Take the parable in question. Then look at the presentations of Paul on matters of death and burial:

Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death

Picture Lazarus...

Exodus 11:7

But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

Well, we'll just tiptoe a little closer as time goes on. I expect the Word takes care of all these matters sooner or later OR none of us would be here 'sharing.'

s

 

[JudaicChristian]

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True. Associative meanings must be applied. Judgment itself can be also be a multifold matter. Matters of judgment unto correction, love, resistance, damnation, etc. Judgment does not automatically equate to 'bad only.'

[/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Jesus also applied some of these terms in a wider array than the simplicity of a dead body in the ground. There are 'walking dead' and 'walking graves.' Very often these are matters of what is in the mind and heart more than a mere physical matter.

It is debateable to me whether the account in question even involved their actual physical deaths, seeing it as a parable. I say more than likely NOT.

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Of which same are usually temporal i.e. we have no account of the permanent death meaning 'eradication in total' via destruction of ANY evil spirit for example.


Were any of these matters only so simple as to view them in regards to mankind only as that is almost NEVER the case in any of these matters, again using the decipher of all parables.



You have stretched several types of judgment into a single unit, which doesn't work. There are many types of 'continuing judgments' that are and have been employed during the course of human history ALL of which relate to 'evil powers' that are also in operation.

THEN, at the finality of these matters, there is the FINAL JUDGMENT. It is wrong to take what happened in prior judgments such as the flood or at S&G and make them fit the FINALE. The previous are figurative to the finale, but not the same. The finale will be LIKE the previous, only PERMANENT.

Anyone picking up matters of 'judgments' without a very broad range of understandings of the parties, the timeframes and the events and how they relate to each other will quickly come to many divisions none of which will mesh until broader pictures encompassing these matters come forth also.

When Jesus warned of the final judgment he pointed to both the flood (WATER) event and the S&G (FIRE) event. I won't deter any deeper into those matters as they are not relevant to the parable in question.

s

The only "END" I am speaking of is the "Final Judgement."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

You know lloj, the longer the Word is in us, the more interesting it becomes.

Yes! There was A GREAT CHASM of those WATERS on the RIGHT HAND and on the LEFT hand...very good...and DRY GROUND inbetween where they, the ISRAELITES could cross over but the EGYPTIANS could NOT...heh heh heh...you are getting quite adept, and not by accident!


s

Kind of goes with the Song of Moses in Reve 15/Exodus15 me thinks

Reve 15:3 And they are singing the Song of Moses, the bond-servant of the God and the Song of the Lambkin saying "great and marvelous the Works of Thee Lord! the God, the Almighty. Just and true the ways of Thee, the King of the saints" [*ages/*nations]. [Exodus 15]

Exodus 15:1 Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YHWH and they are saying to say of "I shall sing to YHWH that to exalt He exalts. Horse and one riding of him He heaved into sea [Reve 15:3]
2 Strenghth of me and melody of Yah and He becoming to me for salvation this one El of me and I shall adorn Him Elohiym of father of me and I shall exalt Him"
21 And Miriam is responding to them "sing ye to YHWH that to be triumphant He is triumphant, horse and and one riding of him He heaved into Sea.

 

[squint]

The only "END" I am speaking of is the "Final Judgement."

OK...and I agree, the terms gehenna and hades and sheol in the text are temporal figuratives and temporal workings of judgments...leading up the the GRANDE FINALE... we cool with dat?

The 'rich man' was in HADES was he not? He was assuredly NOT in the LAKE of fire, as that is YET TO COME.

He was in 'the realm of the DEAD.' The DARKNESS. Sheol.

Deut. 32
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

Could make some interesting connections here to the Lazarus parable as well and 'what happens' when the 'enemies' are divided and then what happens to 'them' alone as in 2 Sam. 22 and to those DIVIDED i.e. Lazarus.

enjoy!

squint

 

[watchm@n]

It was 100&#37; true.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It was 100% true.

I and the Jews would hope so!!!!

 

[squint]

It was 100% true.

The rich man and Lazarus comes in a string of parables i.e. the 1 lost sheep, the prodigal son, the unjust steward, etc. etc.

The parables contain broader 'universally applicable' meanings for their statements and are not meant to be limited to 'just that one time event.' That is why we still look at them with current day applicability. The principles depicted STILL apply to all of us as delivered in parabolic fashions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The rich man and Lazarus comes in a string of parables i.e. the 1 lost sheep, the prodigal son, the unjust steward, etc. etc.

The parables contain broader 'universally applicable' meanings for their statements and are not meant to be limited to 'just that one time event.' That is why we still look at them with current day applicability. The principles depicted STILL apply to all of us as delivered in parabolic fashions.

Perhaps you might want to just take a gander at this one Christian commentator's view of it, as he actually says exactly what you just did......he also delves into the Greek much like I did with it....

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

*snip*

At the beginning of Jesus' discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that "He spoke this parable unto them, saying," (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is "the parable this.." This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable?

The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, "And He spoke this parable unto them," was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - "this parable"? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, "He spoke this parable unto them," this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!