Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Mama Kidogo

The question asked in the OP isn't really important. The real question should be:Is it truth?
​

To know the answer to the question "What is true?", A person has to understand what they are reading.

What was Jesus' point in telling this story?
What truth was He conveying to us?
Why did Luke include this story in his gospel?

If a person believes that the rich guy was an actual person who was in hades experiencing eternal torment in the flames, they come away with one version of "the truth".
If a person reads this story as a parable that Jesus told, then they will look for the point Jesus was making by telling this parable.

We all agree that it is "truth". We disagree on the point of the parable.

Thank you both for that post.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave? It is strenuously denied by most evangelists that this story, as told by Christ, could be a parable. They hold that this is not a parable because it starts out in narrative form...............
But in the parable of the prodigal son, in the fifteenth chapter of Luke, the narrative introduction is found also, for it says, “A certain man had two sons...” Yet it is generally conceded that the story of the prodigal son is a parable and all the fundamentalist preachers love to preach from its beautiful figures, thus applying it as a parable.
The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, “And He spoke this parable unto them,” was the story about the lost sheep. Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”? It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Thescriptureoftruth222

do ye not understand the parable of the rich man and lazarus? For that parable was an example of a man who made himself fat with riches but he was not rich towards god. And lazarus who in this life was a poor man and a begger filled with sores. Lazarus in his life god gave him evil things, For the sons of men in this world glory in riches and the outer appearance lazarus had not riches and the sores which he had was upon his appearance.
Should not lazarus enter into the kingdom of god? seeing that in this live he did not receive his consolation? but the rich man received his consolation but he knew not god.

doesn't the scripture of truth saith not many noble men, wise men nor rich man are chosen by god to enter into his kingdom.

Yeah but who does god choose? doesn't god choose the poor,the blind, the maned, the hated, the rejected of this world to enter into his kingdom?

verily I say unto you. Many rich men wont enter into the kingdom of god because they are full they care not for gods law because they have more than hearts could wish.

but the poor, there is the kingdom for its written in the book of proverbs

"He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor"

If a man gives to the poor in the name jesus I tell you he honors the lord
​

Thanks you for posting.



.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Mama Kidogo

You make a very good point there Squint. Too often we examine it from only one of those points and miss two thirds of the lesson being taught.
​

There are some rules that come with this engagement.

One, if any person thinks themselves personally exempt from the reality of Mark 4:15, then they are already under the lying denial of the occupying party and they will not understand, nor can they, as God Purposefully locks out all liars from understandings.

Once that door is opened by HONESTY, then a flood of information will come pouring in from ABOVE, from the scriptures.

The topic of the 'rich man' in the text is deep territory, but it is hidden from view in PLAIN SIGHT.

It's quite fascinating.

s

Only from those who do not have eyes to see.

Mat 13:15
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.'

Rev 3:18
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen,
and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.



.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The timing of this thread Resurrection is perfect.

 

[Der Alte]

So then those in hell can talk to Abraham? (No snark, I'm really asking.)

Stephen saw heaven opened up and Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Did Satan show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time? If Satan can do that don't you think that God can cause people to see and communicate over a great distance?

The strory of Lazarus and the rich man is often cavalierly dismissed as a parable. If the rich man represents Israel, losing their position with God, and Lazarus represents gentiles being admitted to the kingdom of God, when did God make it impossible for gentiles to cross over and become Jews and Jews to cross over and become Christians?

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

 

[seeingeyes]

Stephen saw heaven opened up and Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. Did Satan show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time? If Satan can do that don't you think that God can cause people to see and communicate over a great distance?

So that's a "yes", then? You believe that people in hell can chat with Abraham?

The strory of Lazarus and the rich man is often cavalierly dismissed as a parable. If the rich man represents Israel, losing their position with God, and Lazarus represents gentiles being admitted to the kingdom of God, when did God make it impossible for gentiles to cross over and become Jews and Jews to cross over and become Christians?

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.​

I have never said I subscribed to that interpretation, so I'll leave that to someone who does.

 

[Mark51]

The rich man is symbolic of Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions. They considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple. They were very self-righteous, wore fine linen; and were proud of being Abraham’s offspring.

 

[Der Alte]

The rich man is symbolic of Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions. They considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple. They were very self-righteous, wore fine linen; and were proud of being Abraham’s offspring.

All of the early church fathers who mention the story of Lazarus and the rich man consider it to be factual, not a parable.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
[Ireneaeus,

120-202 AD, was a student/associate of Polycarp, who was a student/associate of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

All of the early church fathers who mention the story of Lazarus and the rich man consider it to be factual, not a parable.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
[Ireneaeus,

120-202 AD, was a student/associate of Polycarp, who was a student/associate of John.]
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

No offence to the 'early church fathers' but their dogmas dictated their reasoning. Just because they wrote hundreds of years ago, doesn't make their opinions correct. Jesus said of this time in church history that there would be error brought in.

 

[Der Alte]

No offence to the 'early church fathers' but their dogmas dictated their reasoning. Just because they wrote hundreds of years ago, doesn't make their opinions correct. Jesus said of this time in church history that there would be error brought in.

Did you happen to notice that one of those early church fathers, Irenaeus, I quoted was taught by John the disciple? If you are going to accuse the early Christians of error, maybe you should have some evidence rather than blanket unsupported assumptions/presuppositions? Where is your evidence that the rich man was "symbolic of Jewish clergy?" In all of the legitimate parables Jesus uses events which were common knowledge, to His audience, to clarify/explain spiritual truths which were unknown or misunderstood. At some time in history a widow lost money, a shepherd lost sheep, a son squandered his inheritance, etc. What is the known situation in the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

In the Lazarus story Jesus names two specific persons Lazarus and Abraham. Neither Luke nor Jesus introduced the story as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples. If a beggar named Lazarus was not thrown down at a rich man's gate and if Abraham was not in the place and did say the words Jesus mentioned, then Jesus lied.

Jesus mentioned the kingdom of heaven 112 times. Is the kingdom of heaven like unto a rich man living extravagantly and a poor beggar being denied the crumbs from the rich man's table? Is the kingdom of heaven like unto some being tormented in flames and some being comforted?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Did you happen to notice that one of those early church fathers, Irenaeus, I quoted was taught by John the disciple? If you are going to accuse the early Christians of error, maybe you should have some evidence rather than blanket unsupported assumptions/presuppositions? Where is your evidence that the rich man was "symbolic of Jewish clergy?" In all of the legitimate parables Jesus uses events which were common knowledge, to His audience, to clarify/explain spiritual truths which were unknown or misunderstood. At some time in history a widow lost money, a shepherd lost sheep, a son squandered his inheritance, etc. What is the known situation in the story of Lazarus and the rich man?

The belief in the afterlife was common among the Hebrews of Jesus' day as they were influenced by Greek philosophy during their time of rule under them which was just before the Romans. The idea of a place called Hades of eternal torment was widely held during this time... it is therefore, a common understanding that Jesus was using in this parable.

Jesus mentioned the kingdom of heaven 112 times. Is the kingdom of heaven like unto a rich man living extravagantly and a poor beggar being denied the crumbs from the rich man's table? Is the kingdom of heaven like unto some being tormented in flames and some being comforted?

The parable was taught to show the proud Jews their hearts in relation to the nations around them that did not have the good news of salvation... it was showing them that the Kingdom was to be given to the gentiles (beggars) because the Jews had selfishly hoarded the truth for themselves and therefore did not do as they were commanded to do.

 

[Der Alte]

The belief in the afterlife was common among the Hebrews of Jesus' day as they were influenced by Greek philosophy during their time of rule under them which was just before the Romans. The idea of a place called Hades of eternal torment was widely held during this time... it is therefore, a common understanding that Jesus was using in this parable.
The parable was taught to show the proud Jews their hearts in relation to the nations around them that did not have the good news of salvation... it was showing them that the Kingdom was to be given to the gentiles (beggars) because the Jews had selfishly hoarded the truth for themselves and therefore did not do as they were commanded to do.

.
I agree with everything except "influenced by Greek philosophy" If one googles Lazarus and the rich man they will find many explanations what the "parable" really means. So which is the right one? When Jesus taught about eternal punishment it supported/encouraged the existing Jewish belief in a place of unending torment and Jesus said nothing about a false belief "influenced by Greek philosophy."

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

In Matt. 18:6 and 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of howmuch sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

 

[Meowzltov]

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. That means the characters are not historical. It is meant to be realistic, therefore elements of the setting are real, such as gehenna, abraham's bosom,etc. It is told for the purpose of teaching an eternal truth which is that not caring for the poor will end you up in gehenna.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The belief in the afterlife was common among the Hebrews of Jesus' day as they were influenced by Greek philosophy during their time of rule under them which was just before the Romans. The idea of a place called Hades of eternal torment was widely held during this time... it is therefore, a common understanding that Jesus was using in this parable.

The parable was taught to show the proud Jews their hearts in relation to the nations around them that did not have the good news of salvation... it was showing them that the Kingdom was to be given to the gentiles (beggars) because the Jews had selfishly hoarded the truth for themselves and therefore did not do as they were commanded to do.

The rich man is symbolic of Jewish clergy who were well provided for with spiritual provisions. They considered themselves children of the kingdom, clothed in purple. They were very self-righteous, wore fine linen; and were proud of being Abraham’s offspring.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. That means the characters are not historical. It is meant to be realistic, therefore elements of the setting are real, such as gehenna, abraham's bosom,etc. It is told for the purpose of teaching an eternal truth which is that not caring for the poor will end you up in gehenna.

Bingo! We a few winners!

Whom did Jesus rail the most against in the NT? The ruling corrupt and elite rulers in Jerusalem: The Sadducees, Pharisees, Scribes and Lawyers.


Luk 11:52
“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge
Mat 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 23:
13 “But woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>"

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames"). It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.........................................

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe..................

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!........................





.




.[/quote]

 

[Der Alte]

. . . First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames"). It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.........................................

Jesus said nothing without a purpose. How does the singular "flame" prove "reproof, testing, and punishment?" The word φλόξ/phlox translated flame occurs 7 times in the NT always in the singular. What was the significance of the detail about dipping the finger in water and cooling the rich man's tongue?

Since the story is not introduced as a parable and not explained later to Jesus' disciples if we assume that it is factual and the rich man was actually being tormented as he said, his comment is understandable. If a person were being tormented in fire he would not be thinking logically and would probably beg for even a drop of water.

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"? The implication that the House of Judah and those called from the Gentile nations were to change places would have been almost impossible for the Pharisees and scribes to believe..................

There is no indication anywhere in the NT that the Pharisees and scribes understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a prophecy about their being alienated from God. What purpose would a prophecy like this serve if it was not understood until 2000 years +/- after the fact by gentiles not the Jews themselves?

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!.

.......................

How can we "be certain" that Pharisees and scribes understood that the fate of the rich man referred to them? If Jesus wanted "those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with" the story of Lazarus and the rich man, why did He use a vague parable the meaning of which is still being debated 2000 years +/- later.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus said nothing without a purpose. How does the singular "flame" prove "reproof, testing, and punishment?" The word φλόξ/phlox translated flame occurs 7 times in the NT always in the singular. What was the significance of the detail about dipping the finger in water and cooling the rich man's tongue?

Since the story is not introduced as a parable and not explained later to Jesus' disciples if we assume that it is factual and the rich man was actually being tormented as he said, his comment is understandable. If a person were being tormented in fire he would not be thinking logically and would probably beg for even a drop of water.

There is no indication anywhere in the NT that the Pharisees and scribes understood the story of Lazarus and the rich man as a prophecy about their being alienated from God. What purpose would a prophecy like this serve if it was not understood until 2000 years +/- after the fact by gentiles not the Jews themselves?

How can we "be certain" that Pharisees and scribes understood that the fate of the rich man referred to them? If Jesus wanted "those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with" the story of Lazarus and the rich man, why did He use a vague parable the meaning of which is still being debated 2000 years +/- later.

Good question and why I created another thread on that:

Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?
Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?

 

[Meowzltov]

Good question and why I created another thread on that:

Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?
Rich Man and Lazarus most misunderstood parable in NT?

I'm baffled why anyone would think there is anything difficult to understand about the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
1. It's a parable, not a true story. Which means the characters are not historical. But it also means it's a teaching story. What's it supposed to teach? That there are dire consequences in store for those who do not reach out compassionately to the poor.
2. Parables take place in recognizable real locations. A farmer's field. Jericho. Jerusalem. A typical widows home in second temple era Judea. In this story, we have two settings. The first is the gate to the Rich Man's abode, where Lazarus sits to beg. The second is Gehenna , the temporary hell (or paradise) where sins are purged or good lives are rewarded in preparation for the resurrection. Both are part of reality.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm baffled why anyone would think there is anything difficult to understand about the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
1. It's a parable, not a true story. Which means the characters are not historical. But it also means it's a teaching story. What's it supposed to teach? That there are dire consequences in store for those who do not reach out compassionately to the poor.
2. Parables take place in recognizable real locations. A farmer's field. Jericho. Jerusalem. A typical widows home in second temple era Judea. In this story, we have two settings. The first is the gate to the Rich Man's abode, where Lazarus sits to beg. The second is Gehenna , the temporary hell (or paradise) where sins are purged or good lives are rewarded in preparation for the resurrection. Both are part of reality.

Not sure what you mean by the characters not being historical.

Moses, Abraham and Lazarus are all mentioned in it and the NT..........
Perhaps Jesus mentioned them so it would be more understandable to the Jewish audience He was addressing. I understand it pretty well now and can now try to harmonize to the covenantle book of Revelation. [yes, I view this parable and Revelation as covenantle"]

Strong's Number G3475 matches the Greek Μωϋσῆς (Mōÿsēs),
which occurs 80 times in 79 verses

Strong's Number G11 matches the Greek Ἀβραάμ (Abraam),
which occurs 73 times in 69 verses

Strong's Number G2976 matches the Greek Λάζαρος (Lazaros),
which occurs 15 times in 15 verses

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

i believe the gulf is what Jesus crossed when he preached to the sinners
in Noahs day and brought out those who repented
1 PETER 4:19
he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
aparently according to Epehesians some repented
ephesians 4:8-9
when He assended he led captivity captive
What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Good post. I actually view this as a covenantle parable/story, between faith of Abraham and Law of Moses. Both are mentioned.

I believe one way to view the gulf is perhaps it could be symbolizing the Cross.
Just a view I am throwing out there.

Both Abraham/NC/faith and Moses/OC/law are mentioned.

Luke 16:26
And upon all of these between us [Abraham/faith/spirit/NC] and ye [Moses/law/flesh/OC] a great chasm/gulf hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over<1224> hence toward ye no may be able,
neither thence toward us may be ferrying<1276>

Note verses 30, 31

LUKE 16:
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "