Rhema-Logos Pop Teaching

[LinkH]

These are the examples that I can't explain at this point. Obviously the distinction between the two words is not hard and fast. But the authorities maintain that it tends to exist.

@1stcenturylady, sorry for not getting back to you. It's been rough here lately. These are the examples I would have come up with.

Which authorities? You mean that there are different ranges of meaning to each word? I don't doubt that. These meanings just don't seem to correspond that well to some of the Charisamtic movement teachings on the meanings of the words.

I think a good rule of thumb is if someone went to Rhema Bible College or some institute like that, and wants to tell us what the Greek or Hebrew means, there is a good chance it may not be true. Some of these schools, even if they have Greek classes, may not train preachers to know Greek enough to evaluate these kinds of claims in Greek.

 

[paul1149]

Which authorities

The ones I already named here.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Paul wrote it in Greek and he wrote 'logos' (or the approriate grammatical form thereof) and not 'rhema' so translation is not an issue.

I think a better explanation is that the Charismatics who came up with this teaching didn't really know Greek. Someone suggested it started with FGBMI.

You do know that we do not have the original Greek manuscripts from Paul don't you? Besides, it has been said that he wrote in Hebrew and had it translated into Greek for the Greek speaking Gentiles. I do have to say, I think you are just a little bit biased. As am I, but on a different page.

 

[1stcenturylady]

One resource that might provide insight is the TDNT. My copy is incomplete, and doesn't include either word. But the resource traces the usage of words in the Septuagint, Attic Greek, the NT, and secular Greek in NT times, so you can see how usage evolved.

Do you happen to know if Hebrew also has two different words for word? I ask that because it has been said the Paul wrote or spoke in Hebrew and his scribe translated into Greek.

 

[LinkH]

You do know that we do not have the original Greek manuscripts from Paul don't you? Besides, it has been said that he wrote in Hebrew and had it translated into Greek for the Greek speaking Gentiles. I do have to say, I think you are just a little bit biased. As am I, but on a different page.

That seems quite unlikely, that he wrote in Hebrew, considering the presence of Greek-speaking synagogues who used the Septuagint in the Hellenistic world he was born in. I'm sure someone could argue against that based on subtlties of the Greek in which he wrote.

But it seems quite a huge leap to make just to keep the modern pop teachings on rhema/logos which are allegedly supposed to come from the Greek words in the New Testament... much of which comes from Paul's writings in Greek.

 

[paul1149]

Do you happen to know if Hebrew also has two different words for word? I ask that because it has been said the Paul wrote or spoke in Hebrew and his scribe translated into Greek.

I'm far from any authority on this, but the basic word for "word" in Hebrew is debar, and my understanding is that it is compounded with other words to add extra meanings. For instance, there is an expression for a word that comes into completeness as it is being spoken, sort of like what happened when Jesus said at Capernaum, "Today, this scripture has been fullfiled in your hearing". I have been looking for that expression for years, without success.

I'm also no authority on Paul, and while I would expect him to be fully fluent in the Hebrew, having studied under Gamaliel, I would be very surprised if he weren't also fluent in Greek, which I believe was the lingua franca of the day. John 19.20 has the inscription over Jesus' head in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. Aramaic was for the uneducated Jews, Latin for Roman law, and Greek for general consumption, I believe.

Ah yes, Acts has Paul speaking Greek:

And when he came to the steps, he was actually carried by the soldiers because of the violence of the crowd,
for the mob of the people followed, crying out, “Away with him!”
As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the tribune, “May I say something to you?” And he said, “You know Greek?
Then you are not the Egyptian, who recently stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?”
Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people.”
And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying: -Acts 21:35-40​

Paul's need for knowing Greek would be compelling, considering the life and death nature of the volatility of his excursions into Greece, Macadonia, Pisidia, Galatia, etc. And I see no mention of a translator on his journeys.

 

[LinkH]

According to Edersheim's Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, an old book, but still useful, there were Greek-speaking synagogues that used the Septuagint Greek translation (and believed it to be inspired and translated independently the same way, the Torah at least, by 70 Jewish elders.) They would argue minute theological points from the Greek text like the Hebrew-speaking synagoagues did.

Edersheim wrote about the Aramaic and Hebrew synagoagues in the Holy Land, where one might read Torah in Hebrew and it be translated into Aramaic along with the commentary on it.

In Judea and Galilee, there were likely mainly Hebrew and Aramaic synagogues. But there is evidence that some of the people actually spoke Hebrew. The Jews who came back from the captivity spoke Aramaic. Hebrew was still spoken in the country-side and was never fully wiped out. Surrounding people's spoke 'Hebrew languages'. Synagogues in Israel may have had Torah readings in Hebrew, a language either learned in school or that some of them spoke as a native language in an outlying area.

Notice the complaint from the Hellenistic widows in Jersualem in Acts. The Greek-speakers likely had their own community and Greek-speaking synagogues in Jerusalem as well. Some of the Jewish men, who may have been older than their wives, in the diaspora were believed to have moved back to Jerusalem to retire. Some of them died, leaving their younger wives behind. These Greek-speakers may not have known Hebrew or Aramaic. The Greek-speakers may have felt their widows were neglected, so the church may have appointed the 7 primarily from the Hellenist group to make sure the food was distributed fairly.

Paul was from Tarsus, in the Hellenistic world. It is likely he spoke Greek like the synagogues he evangelized in.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm far from any authority on this, but the basic word for "word" in Hebrew is debar, and my understanding is that it is compounded with other words to add extra meanings. For instance, there is an expression for a word that comes into completeness as it is being spoken, sort of like what happened when Jesus said at Capernaum, "Today, this scripture has been fullfiled in your hearing". I have been looking for that expression for years, without success.

I'm also no authority on Paul, and while I would expect him to be fully fluent in the Hebrew, having studied under Gamaliel, I would be very surprised if he weren't also fluent in Greek, which I believe was the lingua franca of the day. John 19.20 has the inscription over Jesus' head in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. Aramaic was for the uneducated Jews, Latin for Roman law, and Greek for general consumption, I believe.

Ah yes, Acts has Paul speaking Greek:

And when he came to the steps, he was actually carried by the soldiers because of the violence of the crowd,
for the mob of the people followed, crying out, “Away with him!”
As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the tribune, “May I say something to you?” And he said, “You know Greek?
Then you are not the Egyptian, who recently stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?”
Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people.”
And when he had given him permission, Paul, standing on the steps, motioned with his hand to the people. And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying: -Acts 21:35-40​

Paul's need for knowing Greek would be compelling, considering the life and death nature of the volatility of his excursions into Greece, Macadonia, Pisidia, Galatia, etc. And I see no mention of a translator on his journeys.

Okay, thanks.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That seems quite unlikely, that he wrote in Hebrew, considering the presence of Greek-speaking synagogues who used the Septuagint in the Hellenistic world he was born in. I'm sure someone could argue against that based on subtlties of the Greek in which he wrote.

But it seems quite a huge leap to make just to keep the modern pop teachings on rhema/logos which are allegedly supposed to come from the Greek words in the New Testament... much of which comes from Paul's writings in Greek.

Has God ever spoken to you personally? If so, He spoke a "word" to you. What was it, logos or rhema?

 

[LinkH]

Has God ever spoken to you personally? If so, He spoke a "word" to you. What was it, logos or rhema?

Does it matter how I'd categorize it? I've gotten what I'd categorize as words of knowledge before. The Bible uses 'logos' for 'word' in 'word of knowledge.'