Revelation in order?

ewq1938 · Jan 14, 2019

FredVB said:
It could be in order, one can try reading it in that way to see how it works that way.

It's not all in order though. Rev 11 shows the end of the GT and the 7th trump which is when Jesus returns, Rev 12 goes way back to the birth and death of Christ and ends with Satan going after the remnant of the woman's seed, the start of the GT, and thus Rev 13 shows the beginning of the GT and the rise of the two beasts and the creation of the mark of the beast etc.

That's the most obvious way to prove the chronology is not in order but there are other examples.

iamlamad · Jan 15, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It's not all in order though. Rev 11 shows the end of the GT and the 7th trump which is when Jesus returns, Rev 12 goes way back to the birth and death of Christ and ends with Satan going after the remnant of the woman's seed, the start of the GT, and thus Rev 13 shows the beginning of the GT and the rise of the two beasts and the creation of the mark of the beast etc.

That's the most obvious way to prove the chronology is not in order but there are other examples.

Sorry, but revelation 11 shows the MIDPOINT of the week, and there is NO COMING. God gets His planet back from the devil, but certainly does not take immediate possession. That will come after the week has finished (7th vial) and after the marriage and supper as shown in Rev. 19.

Rev 12 starts with a parenthesis in the first 5 verses. We could count parenthesis in John's chronology. Rev. 11:15 - the 7th trump - marks the midpoint. Rev. 12:6 is maybe a few seconds later as they saw the abomination and flee. Michael goes after Satan at the 7th trumpet, right where John wrote it.

The 7th trumpet marks the end of 6000 years of man's rule. Adam's lease ends - that is why Satan looses and Jesus gains the world at that time.

Just so you know, the week begins with the 7th seal - ends with the 7th vial. The man of sin is revealed on earth when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven. (or vice versa) VERY shortly (after the war) Satan possesses the man of sin and he will then be called "the Beast." So Rev. 13 is exactly where it should be.

Howevever, after around 13:5, John has another parenthesis, taking us down the last half of the week with the two beasts. In Rev. 14, John is back to just after the midpoint of the week.

It is IN the right order.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 13, 2019

Bipolargirl said: ↑
do you think the book of revelation is written in order?
The book of revelation is confusing to me.

BABerean2 said:
No way.

The Second Coming of Christ is found at the end of chapter 6, with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. They would not be hiding, unless the Lamb is present.

It is found at the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead", in Revelation 11:15-18.

The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson, which includes the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ.

The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.

It is found when Christ comes "as a thief", at Armageddon, in Revelation 16:15-16.

It is found in chapter 19.

It is found at the end of chapter 20.

.

Good post and I also agree it is not in order.
I will try to find a study on that when I have time.

Also as was mentioned in another thread, some of the events/prophecies in Revelation are repeated twice.

Revelation 1:1
An-un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the Time/Season nigh<1451>

FredVB · Aug 4, 2023

ewq1938 said:
It's not all in order though. Rev 11 shows the end of the GT and the 7th trump which is when Jesus returns, Rev 12 goes way back to the birth and death of Christ and ends with Satan going after the remnant of the woman's seed, the start of the GT, and thus Rev 13 shows the beginning of the GT and the rise of the two beasts and the creation of the mark of the beast etc.

That's the most obvious way to prove the chronology is not in order but there are other examples.

I came to figure out that it does not matter much if we read it as being in chronological order, or not, if we miss things because of interpretations of what is shown, based on apparently good guesses rather than scripture passages to determine it. Isaiah said that there would be disaster laying all the earth waste, Revelation 18 describes what Mystery Babylon, that will collapse and fall, is, and the descriptions do not match what I hear anyone interpreting what Mystery Babylon is based on what was heard before from guesses, even good guesses, without basis from scriptures. All the merchants of the earth will wail and mourn in despair, the fall and collapse will be so great. No one city can correspond to that, no church or religion corresponds to that. It will be thorough collapse. God's people do not belong in it, God's people have to be told to come out from there, but it should not be for them to wait for a voice from heaven telling them to get out, when they don't belong there to start with. All the description in Revelation 18 shows we are there. It is not referring to those of us who are real believers being caught up, there is call to our own responsibility to get out of the city, anywhere in Mystery Babylon, flee it and make stable sustainable living in the country apart from the cities, with growing what there can be on that land.

anetazo · Aug 5, 2023

Revelation is written in order. Jesus gave His apostle John the revelation. Some people have difficulty understanding the seals and trumps.
James chapter 1 Pray and ask God for wisdom and knowledge. God will help you understand. I'm Teacher, Gods Elect. My job is seed planter and fix settings. Get the picture.
Revelation chapter 6. The seals are out of order. The seals align with Matthew chapter 24, the 7 sign's Jesus gave for the end times. Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump and six seal.
Now the trumps of chapter 8 are in order.
The first four trumps align with zechariah chapter 1, the four horns. It's education, economics, political and religion. These four agencies are brainwashing people to accept the coming one world political system.
Example, education system teaches evolution and philosophy. They drove God out. Get the picture.

Religion, the priests and pastors have failed to nourish their flocks and warn them antichrist will come near future. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine. Hosea chapter 5 warns us of this.
The 5th trump is probation. The 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem, claiming to be messiah. The 7th trump, Jesus returns, and will establish His kingdom.
Revelation chapter 2 and 3. The seven churches. Philadelphia and smyrna are Gods Election. The other 5 churches Jesus isn't happy with. Either not repenting or teaching traditions of men.

If you need help. I can help. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and his son Dennis, for 23 years, shepherds chapel. Take care.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

anetazo said:
Revelation is written in order. ...
Revelation is written in order. Jesus gave His apostle John the revelation. Some people have difficulty understanding the seals and trumps.
James chapter 1 Pray and ask God for wisdom and knowledge. God will help you understand....
Revelation chapter 6. The seals are out of order. ...

Readers, John numbered the seals for the proper sequence. It is only imagination to think otherwise.
OF COURSE the seals have been and will be opened in the exact order and John numbered them. The first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book. Any other theory comes from pulling the first seals out of their context of Jesus ascending, sending the Holy Spirit down, and taking the book.

God and John also numbered the trumpets and bowls for their proper sequence.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

anetazo said:
...

The 5th trump is probation.

The fifth trumpet looses the stinging locusts. Their job is to torment people. Let's stick closely to what is written.

anetazo said:
The 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem, claiming to be messiah. The 7th trump, Jesus returns, and will establish His kingdom.

It is at the 7th trumpet that the man of sin will enter the temple and cause the abomination Daniel wrote of. I believe the man of sin moves to Jerusalem at Rev. 11: 1-2. I believe he will come with Gentile soldiers that will then trample the city for 42 months. God sends the Two Witnesses at this moment in time because the man of sin has just arrived in Jerusalem. I believe they arrive just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week.

It is only wild imagination that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet that will divide the week. There is not one hint of a coming here. What is written is that there is a property closing in the courtroom of heaven, where the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. At that point in time, Jesus takes to Himself His great power (the church has had His power previously) and begins to reign ON THE EARTH. Then will come to pass what people have been praying for centuries: "thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

What happened to cause this property change of rulership at this time? I believe Adam's 6000 year lease will expire. Suddenly Satan will find he has no more legal hold the anything here. Then the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down.

Just so everyone knows, Jesus WILL come, but as shown in Revelation 19, after the entire week has finished.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

LittleLambofJesus said:
Good post and I also agree it is not in order.
I will try to find a study on that when I have time.

Also as was mentioned in another thread, some of the events/prophecies in Revelation are repeated twice.

Revelation 1:1
An-un-veiling of Jesus Christ, which gives to Him, the GOD, to show to the bond-servants of Him,
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him
which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the Time/Season nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
That the Time/Season nigh<1451>

Revelation is written in PERFECT order, when one recognizes John's intermissions and parentheses.
For example, John breaks from his timeline between the 6th and 7th seals for an intermission. Why? Because He just rearrange the setting to fit the next act: the opening of the 70th week, which will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet.

John has a parenthesis in chapter 11, perhaps from verse 7 to verse 13.
Another parenthesis is the first five verses of chapter 12.

iamlamad · Aug 7, 2023

ewq1938 said:
It's not all in order though. Rev 11 shows the end of the GT and the 7th trump which is when Jesus returns, Rev 12 goes way back to the birth and death of Christ and ends with Satan going after the remnant of the woman's seed, the start of the GT, and thus Rev 13 shows the beginning of the GT and the rise of the two beasts and the creation of the mark of the beast etc.

That's the most obvious way to prove the chronology is not in order but there are other examples.

I must disagree. There is NO COMING at the 7th trumpet. There is a property closing (transfer or ownership) in the courtroom of heaven. The kingdoms of this world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus. Ownership changes, but there is no coming. John could not be any clearer: Jesus coming to take possession is written in chapter 19, AFTER the entire 70th week has finished.

Why is this transfer of at the midpoint of the week? My guess is because that is the moment in time that Adam's 6000 year lease expires.

anetazo · Aug 12, 2023

iamlamad said:
The fifth trumpet looses the stinging locusts. Their job is to torment people. Let's stick closely to what is written.

It is at the 7th trumpet that the man of sin will enter the temple and cause the abomination Daniel wrote of. I believe the man of sin moves to Jerusalem at Rev. 11: 1-2. I believe he will come with Gentile soldiers that will then trample the city for 42 months. God sends the Two Witnesses at this moment in time because the man of sin has just arrived in Jerusalem. I believe they arrive just 3 1/2 days before the abomination that will divide the week.

It is only wild imagination that Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet that will divide the week. There is not one hint of a coming here. What is written is that there is a property closing in the courtroom of heaven, where the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ. At that point in time, Jesus takes to Himself His great power (the church has had His power previously) and begins to reign ON THE EARTH. Then will come to pass what people have been praying for centuries: "thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

What happened to cause this property change of rulership at this time? I believe Adam's 6000 year lease will expire. Suddenly Satan will find he has no more legal hold the anything here. Then the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down.

Just so everyone knows, Jesus WILL come, but as shown in Revelation 19, after the entire week has finished.

Your wrong. The fifth trump is probation. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem. The 7th trump Jesus arrives in Jerusalem.
The 7th trump correspond with revelation chapter 19, Jesus on white war horse and army follows.
I know what I'm talking about. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and Dennis, shepherds chapel, for 23 years.
I'm gently trying to correct you.
James chapter 3, Masters are teachers. They will be very strictly judged by Jesus when He returns 7th trump. Those misleading people will, false brethren, go with satan into the pit during the millennium.
I'm trying to reason with you. You don't want to be in the false brethren category.
I hope you accept the correction, and study the bible. You have not done your homework.
Titus chapter 3, I gave the warning. If you wont listen. As God's Elect, I won't have anything further to do with you. I'm being respectful. Jesus will judge you near future.
Romans chapter 8, God's election are already judged. They have holy spirit. Do you understand ??.

iamlamad · Aug 12, 2023

anetazo said:
Your wrong. The fifth trump is probation. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem. The 7th trump Jesus arrives in Jerusalem.
The 7th trump correspond with revelation chapter 19, Jesus on white war horse and army follows.
I know what I'm talking about. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and Dennis, shepherds chapel, for 23 years.
I'm gently trying to correct you.
James chapter 3, Masters are teachers. They will be very strictly judged by Jesus when He returns 7th trump. Those misleading people will, false brethren, go with satan into the pit during the millennium.
I'm trying to reason with you. You don't want to be in the false brethren category.
I hope you accept the correction, and study the bible. You have not done your homework.
Titus chapter 3, I gave the warning. If you wont listen. As God's Elect, I won't have anything further to do with you. I'm being respectful. Jesus will judge you near future.
Romans chapter 8, God's election are already judged. They have holy spirit. Do you understand ??.

Show us the word "probation" in any verse in Revelation.
Show us proof that at the 6th trumpet the Antichrist will come to Jerusalem.
Show us scripture to prove Satan is the Antichrist Beast of Revelation.

"The 7th trump correspond with revelation chapter 19"
Here you are WARPING time, trying to make the end of a seven year period the same time as the midpoint of the period. There are 7 mentions of those 3.5 years in scripture. You cannot make them just disappear. Chapters 11, 12, and 13 are midpoint chapters with five each 3.5 year countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week written in them.

Just so you know, we are brothers in Christ and should write with that love for each other. I wonder if it has crossed your mind that it just might be you that have it wrong?

FredVB · Aug 22, 2023

anetazo said:
Revelation is written in order. Jesus gave His apostle John the revelation. Some people have difficulty understanding the seals and trumps.
James chapter 1 Pray and ask God for wisdom and knowledge. God will help you understand. I'm Teacher, Gods Elect. My job is seed planter and fix settings. Get the picture.
Revelation chapter 6. The seals are out of order. The seals align with Matthew chapter 24, the 7 sign's Jesus gave for the end times. Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump and six seal.
Now the trumps of chapter 8 are in order.
The first four trumps align with zechariah chapter 1, the four horns. It's education, economics, political and religion. These four agencies are brainwashing people to accept the coming one world political system.
Example, education system teaches evolution and philosophy. They drove God out. Get the picture.

Religion, the priests and pastors have failed to nourish their flocks and warn them antichrist will come near future. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine. Hosea chapter 5 warns us of this.
The 5th trump is probation. The 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem, claiming to be messiah. The 7th trump, Jesus returns, and will establish His kingdom.
Revelation chapter 2 and 3. The seven churches. Philadelphia and smyrna are Gods Election. The other 5 churches Jesus isn't happy with. Either not repenting or teaching traditions of men.

If you need help. I can help. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and his son Dennis, for 23 years, shepherds chapel. Take care.

I do not think I need that separate help from my attention to what the Bible says. I have clarity from traditions with interpretations in eschatology. There are passages in further places in scriptures that should be taken into account but I see are neglected. So who is needing help? I see it is certain Mystery Babylon will fall and there is still all the irresponsibility that is widespread. God help people to see they must come out, they have to choose for doing that.

iamlamad · Aug 22, 2023

anetazo said:
Your wrong. The fifth trump is probation. At the 6th trump, satan as antichrist will come to Jerusalem. The 7th trump Jesus arrives in Jerusalem.
The 7th trump correspond with revelation chapter 19, Jesus on white war horse and army follows.
I know what I'm talking about. I studied under pastor Arnold murray and Dennis, shepherds chapel, for 23 years.
I'm gently trying to correct you.
James chapter 3, Masters are teachers. They will be very strictly judged by Jesus when He returns 7th trump. Those misleading people will, false brethren, go with satan into the pit during the millennium.
I'm trying to reason with you. You don't want to be in the false brethren category.
I hope you accept the correction, and study the bible. You have not done your homework.
Titus chapter 3, I gave the warning. If you wont listen. As God's Elect, I won't have anything further to do with you. I'm being respectful. Jesus will judge you near future.
Romans chapter 8, God's election are already judged. They have holy spirit. Do you understand ??.

A classic case of what Socrates said: "The ills of the whole word are caused by those who think they know, when in fact, they don't."

FredVB · Aug 24, 2023

iamlamad said:
A classic case of what Socrates said: "The ills of the whole word are caused by those who think they know, when in fact, they don't."

Everyone is led to be so sure from the interpretations they hear from others, that rather than see things in light of other scripture passages see things in their own time frames that were not known in the times of the Bible for fulfillment.

dwb001 · Aug 27, 2023

Radagast said:
No.

It's confusing to everybody.

Funny... I don't find it confusing at all.

dwb001 · Aug 27, 2023

HTacianas said:
No, it's not in order. It begins, ends, and then begins again, often overlapping. Remember that it is a religious work and written in the religious language of the time. To us it can seem to not make much sense, but the people it was written to, in understanding the language, understood what it meant.

Do you have sources from the early church fathers that say they understood the book of Revelation?
I was under the impression that Revelation almost did not make it into the cannon.
That would indicate that early in the church, Revelation was not understood.
I would love to hear your sources for your opinion.

HTacianas · Aug 27, 2023

dwb001 said:
Do you have sources from the early church fathers that say they understood the book of Revelation?
I was under the impression that Revelation almost did not make it into the cannon.
That would indicate that early in the church, Revelation was not understood.
I would love to hear your sources for your opinion.

The Revelation is a letter written to seven specific Churches, and addresses each of them in language they would understand. For instance, the Laodiceans are referred to as "lukewarm". There once was an aqueduct that ran to Laodicea carrying how water from a geyser. By the time it reached Laodicea it had cooled and was lukewarm. It was not hot enough for a spa, but too warm to drink. Each of the seven Churches are described similarly, meaning that the language used to address them was familiar to them.

And you're right that it almost did not make it into the Canon, one reason was that it spoke of "the millennium". By the time the Canon was established millennialism had been condemned by the Church.

dwb001 · Aug 27, 2023

HTacianas said:
The Revelation is a letter written to seven specific Churches, and addresses each of them in language they would understand. For instance, the Laodiceans are referred to as "lukewarm". There once was an aqueduct that ran to Laodicea carrying how water from a geyser. By the time it reached Laodicea it had cooled and was lukewarm. It was not hot enough for a spa, but too warm to drink. Each of the seven Churches are described similarly, meaning that the language used to address them was familiar to them.

And you're right that it almost did not make it into the Canon, one reason was that it spoke of "the millennium". By the time the Canon was established millennialism had been condemned by the Church.

So you have no early sources for your opinion?
Thanks anyway.

FredVB · Aug 29, 2023

Every view I ever hear for this matter in eschatology is from interpretation with understanding what is current and not known previously, and without Bible passages had for support of any of them. I do use other Bible passages that would be support, which should not be dismissed.

dwb001 · Aug 29, 2023

FredVB said:
Every view I ever hear for this matter in eschatology is from interpretation with understanding what is current and not known previously, and without Bible passages had for support of any of them. I do use other Bible passages that would be support, which should not be dismissed.

I think that understanding Revelation starts with figuring out how it is meant to be read. And I don't know of many people that get that first step correct.

Revelation in order?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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