Revelation in chart form

Quasar92

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Above we have Darby apologists explaining how John Darby came up with the pretrib doctrine, after a fall from his horse during 1827.

There is one chief witness against them.
That would be John Darby himself.

During 1829 Darby wrote a prophetic paper written from the historicist, amill perspective with no mention of the pretrib doctrine.
However, Darby does mention "The Morning Watch", which was the publication of the Irvingites.
Therefore, we know that Darby was keeping up with the followers of Edward Irving.

See the links below, which were not written by Darby apologists.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.


The issue pertaining to Darby is to inform you again, after numerous previous time, that he did not invent the pre-trib rapture o the Church. But rather, restored it from the RCC teachings of Amillenniaism, that held it hostage for more than 1,600 years.

When are you going to stop using him for a crutch, to promote your heretic belief that the Church is Israel?


Quasar92
 
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Douggg

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The listing of who and what the one and only one dictator ruler, before the return of Christ, is the Antichrist in the Bible, whom Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, as recorded in Rev.13:1-2, I provided for you in my post #11.

Q, in Revelation 13, it says in the text "beast", not Antichrist. You are throwing out your opinion that the text should say, infere, Antichrist. I say the person is the beast at that time, like it says in the text, because the person is no longer the Antichrist for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

The person is the Antichrist only for while he is the King of Israel (illegitimate). The term the Christ is associated with being the King of Israel, son of David.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Mark-15-32/
This is not opinion. It is right out of the bible.

Mark 32:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Now you show me where Christ means beast.... in order for the AntiChrist to be the Anti-beast.

Apparently, you don't understand that being Senator is not the same role as being President in the analogy I gave you regarding Barack Obama.
 
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jgr

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Concerning the “group calling themselves Jews, but are not Jews” or “the Synagogue of Satan”. Do you have any thoughts on who, currently on the world stage, this may be?

Who is it that could claim to be Jews, and yet not be?

You've correctly supplied the answer from Romans 2:28-29.

Those who make their claim based on the externalities of race and/or religion and/or culture; but who are internally uncircumsized in heart and spirit, and whose praise is not of God.

Various groups have falsely claimed to be Jews over the years. Today certain groups in the Church believe they’ve inherited the promises God made to Israel. Some of them even live according to to the Levitical system. This view is called Replacement Theology.

Christ is the Heir of all promises of God to Israel (Galatians 3:16, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Hebrews 1:1-2), and He has declared all true believers, irrespective of ethnicity, to be joint heirs with Him (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 8:17). You are correct; it is Replacement Theology. It is the replacement of the unbeliever with the believer.

But the Bible disagrees with that view and in any case, you’ll find members of all 12 tribes in Israel today. The so-called 10 lost tribes were never completely lost. We know this because 2 chronicles 11:14-17 tells us at the time of the rebellion that divided the Kingdom the faithful from all 12 tribes moved to the south. And at the end of the Age God will find 12,000 each from 12 tribes in Israel to serve as His evangelists on Earth. (Rev. 7:1-8)

With Abrahamic DNA ubiquitous within humankind, you'll find all tribes everywhere on earth. The "Jewish" community itself acknowledges this.

God's evangelists are His true believers everywhere irrespective of ethnicity, aka His Church.
 
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Marvin Knox

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.... The issue pertaing to Drby is to inform you again, after numerous previous time, that he did not invent the pre-trib rapture o the Church. But rather, restored it from the RCC teachings of Amillenniaism, that held it hostage for more than 1,600 years.
When are you going to stop using him for a crutch, to promote your heretic belief that the Church is Israel? Quasar92
While I won't spare the time to go through everything in the OP charts (and I may not agree with every conclusion in them) - I must say here that the entire "Darby started this heresy" charge is absolutely ridiculous.

The merits of the various positions should be debated on their own without people resorting to this kind of cop out crutch.
 
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BABerean2

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The issue pertaing to Drby is to inform you again, after numerous previous time, that he did not invent the pre-trib rapture o the Church. But rather, restored it from the RCC teachings of Amillenniaism, that held it hostage for more than 1,600 years.

When are you going to stop using him for a crutch, to promote your heretic belief that the Church is Israel?


Quasar92

That would be when you admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16, Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.

He is the one seed to whom the Abrahamic promise was made, instead of the many seeds as you imply.

You are a New Covenant denier, in order to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.



The New Covenant: Bob George
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7NQffg_NE
.
 
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Oldmantook

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The false rapture teaching was popularized in America by the introduction and promotion of the Scofield Bible which is essentially C.I. Scofield's notes based on Darby's rapture doctrine. Men like 33rd degree freemason George Bannerman Dealey owner of the Dallas Morning News and member of Scofield’s church contributed greatly to the cause. Why would a freemason promote Scofield? Freemasonry association and promotion of Schofield and his Bible should cause red flags about the introduction of the rapture teaching in America. Scofield was not a trustworthy person to say the least. He referred to himself as Dr. Scofield despite no evidence/documentation of having such a degree. He was a swindler and was convicted of forgery. He abandoned his first wife and children, began dating another woman (while pastoring a church), got divorced and then remarried 3 months later. Do these characteristics mark for a man of integrity, much less the qualifications of an elder/teacher/pastor of a church?
Scofield's bad fruit should at the least cause one to question Scofield's teaching about the rapture. Simple error or intentional deception? I vote for the latter.
 
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Danoh

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While I won't spare the time to go through everything in the OP charts (and I may not agree with every conclusion in them) - I must say here that the entire "Darby started this heresy" charge is absolutely ridiculous.

The merits of the various positions should be debated on their own without people resorting to this kind of cop out crutch.

That's because these issues are ever in debate between the following two of the other kinds of Bible "students" out there...

Those who get their ideas "about" the Bible through what ends up a huge personal library of books supposedly based on Scripture.

And those who actually put their time in the Scripture itself over their time in books about it; learning from IT how to PROPERLY study IT out.

Both end up concluding they each "know" the Scripture.

Both can not be correct.

One of the two ever proving they know "about" the Bible more than they actually know the Bible.

Especially those who are all about the books and the youtube videos, and all that kind of a thing.

Such end up concluding that the way to solve for one issue or another is more books "about" it.

And such end up concluding that those they disagree with also relied on books "about" the Bible.

It is no surprise then, that when these endless books based, google based, youtube based, Dr. So and so based "Bible experts" actually lay out one or another set of texts from the Bible itself, they often prove how poor they are at properly handling "the Bible."

Their long set in cement habit of reading the reasoning of their ever sources "about" the Bible INTO the Scripture has so corrupted what little ability to follow the actual flow of a Scripture writer's thought, they once may have had, but for their having reached for "a book about..." a bit too soon, and...a bit too often.

It is one thing to look into books "about."

They have their important place.

It is totally another, however, to OVER rely on them.

To do so is just as self-decieving as the old "well, what this passage means TO ME is..."

It is clear to the actually Bible based Bible student that Darby's first distinction had been his coming to understand his completeness in Christ.

Which IS a Body issue.

That he should have seen from, in light of, or through the lens of that one - that there were / are other distinctions - is actually no different than Martin Luther's (also a) Body distinction centuries later - that justification was / is by faith, given the FINISHED work of the Cross.

No surprise then, that the ever proven incompetent by their own words enemies of Dispensationalism, end up concluding against Darby in the exact same way as the RCC did against Luther - that Luther's was "some new development, not held by the fathers" or what have you.

For throughout the long history of these issues the reasoning of men is ever the same - the same old, same old reasoning...of men.

Nevertheless, Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.
 
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Marvin Knox

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.............Do these characteristics mark for a man of integrity, much less the qualifications of an elder/teacher/pastor of a church?
Assuming the charges you level are true and even if they are not - the answer is NO.
.............
Scofield's bad fruit should at the least cause one to question Scofield's teaching about the rapture. Simple error or intentional deception? I vote for the latter.
I agree that they should raise red flags when they are leveled by you - even if they are not accurate in the end.

I agree that they should (among other reasons) bring an honest student of the scriptures to investigate the scripture basis for his teaching.

I disagree that they are in error - in a general way.

As to his intent for teaching what he did - I wouldn't have the foggiest idea and neither do you.

As for my intent, and those of most others I know, who have ended up holding the same general views on end time events as Darby, Schofield et al.- I'm quite sure we don't hold and teach our views for deceptive reasons any more than you do.
 
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Oldmantook

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Assuming the charges you level are true and even if they are not - the answer is NO.

I agree that they should raise red flags when they are leveled by you - even if they are not accurate in the end.

I agree that they should (among other reasons) bring an honest student of the scriptures to investigate the scripture basis for his teaching.

I disagree that they are in error - in a general way.

As to his intent for teaching what he did - I wouldn't have the foggiest idea and neither do you.

As for my intent, and those of most others I know, who have ended up holding the same general views on end time events as Darby, Schofield et al.- I'm quite sure we don't hold and teach our views for deceptive reasons any more than you do.
Are you not capable of doing your own research Marvin?
Are you not capable of verifying whether or not my claims of Scofield's integrity or lack thereof, are accurate or not?
For you to simply dismiss my charges without even a cursory examination of the facts is out of character for you Marvin - or is it?
To blindly accept Scofield's teachings without also investigating his deceitful character is questionable at best and foolish at worst.
 
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Marvin Knox

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Are you not capable of doing your own research Marvin?
Yes - I am. Who says I'm not? Provide references please so I can take them to task.
Are you not capable of verifying whether or not my claims of Scofield's integrity or lack thereof, are accurate or not?
Giving consideration to the length of time between his life and mine, the possible and even likely prejudice of those reporting on him at the time, and the unreliability of the internet as our main source at this time - I am quite capable and have done so.

Did someone say that I had not? References please!
For you to simply dismiss my charges without even a cursory examination of the facts is out of character for you Marvin - or is it?
Yes - that would be out of character for me. That's exactly why it's so ridiculous for you to levy charges against me and my character by saying that I dismiss your charges without even a cursory examination of the data available.

You do know what happens when you assume don't you.:oops:
To blindly accept Scofield's teachings without also investigating his deceitful character is questionable at best and foolish at worst.
Of course it is. That's why I wouldn't do it didn't do it. I, and most people who generally believe as he did haven't either.

Many of the millions of believers who think different than you do on some end time events have come to their conclusions without even knowing who Darby and Schofield were.

To charge that we are followers of Darby and Schofield simply because we have some things in common with them concerning our interpretation of end time events is no more fair than for me to lump you in with some guys you don't know just because of your beliefs.

If I could show that Jimmy Swaggart or some such person of ill repute was a universalist like you are - it wouldn't make a bit of difference as on whether you are or are not correct now would it? Your beliefs and the proofs you offer for them should be examined on their own without slandering you own character.

You really should be ashamed of such tactics.
 
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BABerean2

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No surprise then, that the ever proven incompetent by their own words enemies of Dispensationalism, end up concluding against Darby in the exact same way as the RCC did against Luther - that Luther's was "some new development, not held by the fathers" or what have you.

For throughout the long history of these issues the reasoning of men is ever the same - the same old, same old reasoning...of men.


Once a person comes to understand that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart.

.
 
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Oldmantook

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Yes - I am. Who says I'm not? Provide references please so I can take them to task.
Is is not a simple matter to do a few key strokes and research yourself? The info is widespread and readily available. Perform your own due diligence.

Giving consideration to the length of time between his life and mine, the possible and even likely prejudice of those reporting on him at the time, and the unreliability of the internet as our main source at this time - I am quite capable and have done so.
Really? Likely prejudice? Is that your presumption or established fact? In my own research, I have encountered no evidence of prejudice so I invite you show me otherwise, if you can.

Yes - that would be out of character for me. That's exactly why it's so ridiculous for you to levy charges against me and my character by saying that I dismiss your charges without even a cursory examination of the data available.

You do know what happens when you assume don't you.:oops:
Yes, I assume you don't know what you're talking about since you have not countered my allegations. If my claims are false, simply show me where I'm mistaken. Show me that data that Scofield earned his doctorate. Show me the data that he didn't abandon his family. Show me the data that he was not convicted of forgery. Otherwise, you dismiss these allegations without even investigating for yourself.

Of course it is. That's why I wouldn't do it didn't do it. I, and most people who generally believe as he did haven't either.

Many of the millions of believers who think different than you do on some end time events have come to their conclusions without even knowing who Darby and Schofield were.

To charge that we are followers of Darby and Schofield simply because we have some things in common with them concerning our interpretation of end time events is no more fair than for me to lump you in with some guys you don't know just because of your beliefs.

If I could show that Jimmy Swaggart or some such person of ill repute was a universalist like you are - it wouldn't make a bit of difference as on whether you are or are not correct now would it? Your beliefs and the proofs you offer for them should be examined on their own without slandering you own character.

You really should be ashamed of such tactics.
My premise is simply that Scofield's character was such that one should prudently be suspicious of his interpretation of Scripture. Off the bat you simply dismiss these allegations without any evidence that I'm wrong/mistaken. A proven liar is not to be trusted unless one enjoys being deceived. That alone should cause you to pause in accepting Darby's/Scofield's teachings. Secondly, and most importantly, do Darby's and Scofield's teachings about the rapture line up with Scripture and what Jesus taught? We all agree that Jesus will one day return as a thief which is commonly referred to as the rapture. The germane question is does the rapture occur before the tribulation as Darby postulated? The answer is NO as Jesus himself taught the exact opposite of Darby/Scofield. Jesus stated that his coming as a thief occurs around or right before the battle of Armageddon which is the post-tribulation view.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 16:15-16

Jesus places his return as a thief at the time of Armageddon. You can choose to align yourself with the writings of Darby/Scofield if you wish but I prefer to align myself with Jesus' own words.
 
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Quasar92

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Q, in Revelation 13, it says in the text "beast", not Antichrist. You are throwing out your opinion that the text should say, infere, Antichrist. I say the person is the beast at that time, like it says in the text, because the person is no longer the Antichrist for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

The person is the Antichrist only for while he is the King of Israel (illegitimate). The term the Christ is associated with being the King of Israel, son of David.
This is not opinion. It is right out of the bible.

Mark 32:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Now you show me where Christ means beast.... in order for the AntiChrist to be the Anti-beast.

Apparently, you don't understand that being Senator is not the same role as being President in the analogy I gave you regarding Barack Obama.
Q, in Revelation 13, it says in the text "beast", not Antichrist. You are throwing out your opinion that the text should say, infere, Antichrist. I say the person is the beast at that time, like it says in the text, because the person is no longer the Antichrist for the last 42 months of the 7 years.

The person is the Antichrist only for while he is the King of Israel (illegitimate). The term the Christ is associated with being the King of Israel, son of David.
This is not opinion. It is right out of the bible.

Mark 32:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Now you show me where Christ means beast.... in order for the AntiChrist to be the Anti-beast.

Apparently, you don't understand that being Senator is not the same role as being President in the analogy I gave you regarding Barack Obama.


My studies of prophecy and eschatology totalled 36 years alone, and I earned my qualifications to teach it from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University. in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX. And where, may I ask did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?

Here is another source from David Nixon, fully supporting what I have previosly provided on who and what the Antichrist is. There is no such thing as the Antichrist ever being the king of Israel. You have been deceived into believing false information.

his article is taken from a longer piece "The Unholy Trinity Operating in the Last Days" by David J. Nixon which can be accessed in full here
In Revelation 13 we are introduced to the second person in the unholy trinity: the Antichrist. The character of “The Antichrist” is not strictly named correctly many argue. We call him such because John warns against deceivers who have gone out denying Christ’s deity and calls all such people “the deceiver and the antichrist” (2 John 7); indeed he has earlier indicated that those who cannot confess that Jesus is God incarnate are like this because of the “spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already” (1 John 4:3). This apparently indicates that there is a particular spirit of the antichrist and that it evidences itself in setting itself up against the claims of Jesus to be the Son of God to deceive people. Thus whenever we have the End Time character variously called “the little horn” (Daniel 7:8),“The prince of the people who must come” (Daniel 9:26), “the Man of Lawlessness” (2 Thessalonians 2:3), or “the Beast out of the Sea” (Revelation 13) and we look at what the Bible says about what his actions will be (“opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:4) then we understandably see him as the ultimate personification of the plural spiritual antichrists of history. He is depicted as a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns with 10 crowns and blasphemous names written on them; I am not entirely certain that a great deal can be derived from the image with any degree of certainty or accuracy so instead I propose to look at the more clear things we do get directly out of the scriptures.

The origin of the Beast out of the Sea and his power is made clear: “To it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority” (Revelation 13:2); “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing because they refused to love the truth and so be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). Just as Satan as “Prince of this World” (John 14:30) legitimately offered all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus in the wilderness temptations, so too he will offer the kingdoms to the Antichrist in the ultimate demonstration of the bankruptcy of gaining the world at the expense of his soul (Matthew 16:26). To facilitate this rise into power the Restrainer described by the Apostle Paul (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) must have been removed out of the way, and many of us take that to mean that the Rapture will have already have occurred by this time removing the Church and indwelling Holy Spirit from the world. At some point (I would argue 3.5 years before this empowering, for reasons you will see momentarily) Antichrist will form a 7 year covenant with Israel which marks the commencement of the 70th Week. It is perhaps this time of peace and security that the Apostle Paul refers to as: “While people are saying ‘peace and security’, then sudden destruction will come upon them” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The scriptures are clear that the Antichrist is given 7years, with a 42 month duration of authority (Revelation 13:5) which would place the timing of Satan’s empowerment of him at the midpoint of the 70th Week at which time there are 42 months (another way of saying “a time, times and half a time”/3.5 years/1260 days) until the Second Coming when the Antichrist is judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire by Christ. It then logically follows that the Abomination of Desolation must occur quickly after this empowering of the Antichrist for it is the definitive half way point of the 70th Week with his turning against Israel in breach of the covenant to attack the Temple and so necessarily needs to fit with the timings set out in prophecy: “And he shall make a covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator” (Daniel 9:27). Once his efforts against Israel are thwarted then he will turn and be allowed to “make war on the saints and to conquer them” (Revelation 13:7)

By: David J. Nixon



Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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My studies of prophecy and eschatology totalled 36 years alone, and I earned my qualifications to teach it from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University. in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX. And where, may I ask did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?

Based on your yardstick above, Dr. Kelly Varner should be well qualified to teach the Bible.

What does he say below about your Two Peoples of God/New Covenant Denial doctrine?



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

.
 
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Quasar92

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That would be when you admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Matthew 1:1, and Galatians 3:16, Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel.

He is the one seed to whom the Abrahamic promise was made, instead of the many seeds as you imply.

You are a New Covenant denier, in order to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.



The New Covenant: Bob George

.


FYI, I have concurred that Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant many times over, in my own posts. Don't you ever take time to read? It's long past time for you to understand, Israel has not yet accepted it! The Bible reveals they will not accept it until Jesus second coming, recorded in Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5. Period!


Quasar92
 
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Marvin Knox

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Is is not a simple matter to do a few key strokes and research yourself? The info is widespread and readily available. Perform your own due diligence.
You misunderstand what I said.

You accuse me of not performing due diligence and I asked you to show me where you find proof that I have not. I asked you to provide references as to who told you I didn't know the issues involved.
In my own research, I have encountered no evidence of prejudice so I invite you show me otherwise, if you can.
Since, as you say, the position of Darby and Schofield was so much against the norm - it is only to be expected that most would disagree out of hand.
Yes, I assume you don't know what you're talking about since you have not countered my allegations. If my claims are false, simply show me where I'm mistaken. Show me that data that Scofield earned his doctorate. Show me the data that he didn't abandon his family. Show me the data that he was not convicted of forgery. Otherwise, you dismiss these allegations without even investigating for yourself.
I have not claimed that your allegations are false. Again - where are you getting these things you charge me with?
My premise is simply that Scofield's character was such that one should prudently be suspicious of his interpretation of Scripture.
To which I agree. Where are you finding that I disagree or, as you also charge, that I have ever vouched for Scofield's character?

You keep making false accusations about how I think and what I have studied and I have asked you where you are getting your information since it isn't from me.
Off the bat you simply dismiss these allegations without any evidence that I'm wrong/mistaken.
Where did you get the idea that I dismissed the allegation without any evidence that you are wrong or mistaken? Please provide the place where I have said these things or shut up about it. You are lying about me and it's wearing more than a little thin.
That alone should cause you to pause in accepting Darby's/Scofield's teachings.
As I have clearly said - it does. Where are you getting the idea that it hasn't given me pause?
Secondly, and most importantly, do Darby's and Scofield's teachings about the rapture line up with Scripture and what Jesus taught?
Yes or I wouldn't agree with them.
Jesus places his return as a thief at the time of Armageddon. You can choose to align yourself with the writings of Darby/Scofield if you wish but I prefer to align myself with Jesus' own words.
"for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon." Revelation 16:14-16

Where does Jesus say that He returns as a thief just before the battle at Har-Magedon?

Your great hatred of everything Darby and Schofield is driving you to imagine things which are not in the scriptures.

*** Please stop making false charges against me and show me where you are getting your false information or we will have to cease the discussion with this.
 
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Quasar92

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Based on your yardstick above, Dr. Kelly Varner should be well qualified to teach the Bible.

What does he say below about your Two Peoples of God/New Covenant Denial doctrine?



Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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Why you keep up the above pointless argument is a complete mystery.

Did God send Israel into a diaspora of 1,878 years, and take their land and nation away from them; Allow their temple and Jerusalem to be destroyed because they not only rejected Jesus as their Messiah and the New Covenant, but had Him crucified as well? All of whom are non-believers, the FIRST group of people.

YES or NO!

Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5 reveal they will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah and accept the terms of the New Covenant, when Jesus returns in His Second Coming! Capiche?!

The Body of Christ, His Church, in which Jesus is the founder and head of, according to Col.1:18, are all believers in Him and the SECOND group or people!


Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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Zech.12:10 and 14:4-5 reveal they will finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah and accept the terms of the New Covenant, when Jesus returns in His Second Coming! Capiche?!

Based on the parable of the virgins in Matthew chapter 25, there will be no second chances based on DNA, at His Second Coming.
You are adding race to a Gospel based only on Grace.

In Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites (See Romans 11:1-5) and believing Gentiles grafted together into the same tree.

The branches broken off can be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ.
This is the "so" manner of their salvation in Romans 11:24-26.

There is no Plan B, outside of the New Covenant Church.

Acts 2:36, and James 1:1-3, and Romans 11:1, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 prove the error of your Two Peoples of God doctrine.


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Douggg

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My studies of prophecy and eschatology totalled 36 years alone, and I earned my qualifications to teach it from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University. in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX. And where, may I ask did you obtain your credentials to teach the Bible?
Q, I walk with God as His servant and friend, according to His love, grace, and mercy.

Here is another source from David Nixon, fully supporting what I have previosly provided on who and what the Antichrist is. There is no such thing as the Antichrist ever being the king of Israel. You have been deceived into believing false information.
Do you believe that God sent Jesus to be the King of Israel, but was rejected by his own people? John 1:11

Q, you are not arguing with me over that the prefix "Anti" means instead of and/or against - are you? If not, it comes down to the concept of "the Christ" pertaining to Israel. You already think that Antichrist confirms the covenant with Israel for 7 years. For that to happen, in what way does Israel view "the Christ" ?

"the Christ" is a title of being the King of Israel, descended from King David, promised to lead the Jews and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety. The Jews rejected Jesus in that capacity. The Antichrist will be the another they will embrace in that capacity - instead of and against Jesus, who is God - the rightful King of Israel. You might want to look at 1Samuel12:12.

Jesus is the one who God sent to be the King of Israel - the Christ; the "Anti"christ will be the another the Jews will embrace as their King of Israel.

Mark 2:2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
___________________________________________________________________________
Q, does the Jews', Israel's, rejection of Jesus as their King of Israel made any difference to salvation being offered to the gentiles?

So the Jews, Israel's, disposition counts.

From the Judaism101.org site, regarding the mashiach, their term for the messiah, they state he will be king (of Israel is implied) in the end times. This is as fundamental to them, as Jesus is to us. The Jews are intensely expecting their messiah.

Quote from Judaism 101:

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.


Q, the person who will be anointed the King of Israel in the End of Days by the Jews as their King - will be the Antichrist, the another that Jesus said they would accept. He will not claim to be God initially.

But well into his reign as the Antichrist, when he goes into the temple, sits, that he will claim to be God - which will mortify the Jews that their mashiach King of Israel does such a thing. And they will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel - ending his time as the AntiChrist.

Q,

The Antichrist is the person as the King of Israel (illegitimate).
The beast is the person as the 8th King of the fourth empire.

The person as the beast is not doing the things in Revelation 13 - in the capacity of being the Jews perceived messiah - King of Israel. Instead, he will be the 8th king - the beast - of the fourth empire, Revelation 17:10-11. The beast will be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus's Return.

The Revelation of Jesus to the world in great power and glory, is the Revelation of Jesus as He is, the Lord God Almighty.

God is the rightful king of Israel and that's the way it's going to be. again, take a look at 1Samuel12:12.
 
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Oldmantook

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You misunderstand what I said.

You accuse me of not performing due diligence and I asked you to show me where you find proof that I have not. I asked you to provide references as to who told you I didn't know the issues involved.
I won't do your homework for you Marvin. I specifically asked you to disprove my claims that Scofield was not convicted of forgery, did not abandon his family and did not possess a doctorate. I'm still waiting.

Since, as you say, the position of Darby and Schofield was so much against the norm - it is only to be expected that most would disagree out of hand.
Where did I write that their position was out of the norm? I simply claimed that Scofield's character warranted further scrutiny based on the facts I presented and thus his interpretation of the "rapture" was suspect.

I have not claimed that your allegations are false. Again - where are you getting these things you charge me with?
You asked me to prove it so may I presume you did not believe me? It is a rather simple matter to investigate for yourself and determine for yourself whether what I cited is accurate is it not?

To which I agree. Where are you finding that I disagree or, as you also charge, that I have ever vouched for Scofield's character?

You keep making false accusations about how I think and what I have studied and I have asked you where you are getting your information since it isn't from me.
I never wrote that you vouched for his character, but you never agreed with me either. So exactly, what is your position of Scofield's integrity or lack thereof, based on your own research?

Where did you get the idea that I dismissed the allegation without any evidence that you are wrong or mistaken? Please provide the place where I have said these things or shut up about it. You are lying about me and it's wearing more than a little thin.
No lies here. Did you not write your presumption stating "likely prejudice" and "unreliability of the internet? Really Marvin, is that your whole argument??

As I have clearly said - it does. Where are you getting the idea that it hasn't given me pause?
If it really gives your pause as you so claim, what exactly have you discovered that disproves my claims regarding Scofield then?

Where does Jesus say that He returns as a thief just before the battle at Har-Magedon?

Your great hatred of everything Darby and Schofield is driving you to imagine things which are not in the scriptures.

*** Please stop making false charges against me and show me where you are getting your false information or we will have to cease the discussion with this.
Feel free to cease discussing anytime Marvin, especially if you decline to show me where I'm wrong regarding Scofield's poor character, lest we keep going round in circles which neither you or I care for.
Did you not read Rev 16:15-16? It states Jesus is coming as a thief. Then comes Armageddon. Do you choose to simply ignore the proximity of Jesus' coming and the occurrence of Armageddon. What do you think it means as you have curiously not offered any interpretation of your own?
 
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