Revelation in chart form

[Oldmantook]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Pretty sure ALL THESE THINGS has it covered.

Does "escape" by necessity refer to a rapture event? It could be one way, but not the only way so your presumption is unfounded.

 

[Oldmantook]

I said it that way specifically to see if you knew , - there are way too many people -especially on forums who 'profess' they know things that they do not know - they criticize people when they them self have not studied the Word of God - they are some pew warmers who go to church and are totally dependent on what a preacher says and believes everything a preacher says simply because they are a preacher -this is why Jesus says don't allow your self to be deceived--Study Gods Word and learn what Jesus says then compare it to what preachers say.

The ONLY reason there are so many denominations is simply because some people have a different opinion than a church preacher says so they start their own church teaching what they think the bible says

If you studied the WORD of God you would know - it is not as if you came in here seeking to learn - you came to express your blasting skills with no desire to learn - just to condemn what people say- and that you apparently are not familiar with what Jesus taught

I have read the Bible several times over and graduated with honors from seminary. So I think I have managed to study the Word. I strongly suggest you stick to discussing the Word rather than focusing of your perceived lack of my qualifications. If you disagree with me, do so by debating the scriptures. That's not too much to ask of you, is it?

 

[Oldmantook]

FYI, the OP is about Revelation in Chart form, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. C.I. Scofield provided an annotated Bible for the general public. A tirade was initiated about the person of Scofield, which has nothing whatever to do with the subject of the thread!
It is nothing but flat out gossip and a personal vendetta against him, that has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. No amount of arguing is going to excuse those facts!


Quasar92

So the rapture/Jesus' return is not related to the Revelation Chart? As I wrote earlier, show me evidence that what I've claimed about Scofield is not historical fact and is gossip. I'll wait for for your evidence....

 

[Douggg]

I have read the Bible several times over and graduated with honors from seminary. So I think I have managed to study the Word. I strongly suggest you stick to discussing the Word rather than focusing of your perceived lack of my qualifications. If you disagree with me, do so by debating the scriptures. That's not too much to ask of you, is it?

Yes, that advice should be followed globally.

 

[Douggg]

Does "escape" by necessity refer to a rapture event? It could be one way, but not the only way so your presumption is unfounded.

The rapture is strongly implied. I don't see the other way, because of what it says in verse 35...

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

And by what it says in Revelation 3:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

__________________________________________________________________

It doesn't mandate, nor disqualify, a pre-70th week rapture. The rapture could happen pre-70th week, in the next minute. It means - any time between now, this very second, and when it actually takes place - some time before the Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

And no-one can figure that exact day out (even after the 7 years begin) because there is not enough information given - regarding the transgression of desolation act.

The Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night because no-one saying peace and safety at that time are going to be expecting the Antichrist's actions.

1Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And even if the body of Christ has not been raptured before the seven years begin and are still here - and recognize the Antichrist for who he is right off the bat- it still cannot be determined what day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

 

[Oldmantook]

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

So how will the Son of man be in his day. It will be as lightning that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven;
And yet Jesus tells the disciples they shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man. That means there is more than one time that Jesus comes as lightning that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven.

Read the whole chapter. What did Jesus mean by "one of the days" of the Son of Man? That phrase is repeated in v.26 where Jesus compares the days of the Son of Man to the days of Noah. In the verses that follow Jesus references a time frame/events in the future similar to the days of Noah. Therefore "one of the days" in proper context refers to one of the days in the future which will be similar in character to the days of Noah. It does not refer to more than one time that Jesus returns. In other words, during one of those days, which are like the days of Noah, Jesus promised that he will return - one time; not two.

 

[Oldmantook]

There is only one harvest of the saints/those of us who belong to Christ, His Church, BEFORE the first resurrection of the tribulation martyr/saints, in Rev.20:4. The latter are those who will be left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, in the sky, in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:16-17.

In 2 Thess.2:3:"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." in verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.


Quasarf92

Your view is problematic. How can Jesus come as a thief two times? If he comes as a thief at the rapture before the tribulation, how can he come as a thief a second time after the tribulation? Your view ignores the fact that Jesus stated that he's coming as a thief prior to Armageddon (Rev 16:15-16) which takes place after the tribulation - not before it.

 

[Oldmantook]

The rapture is strongly implied. I don't see the other way, because of what it says in verse 35...

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

And by what it says in Revelation 3:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

__________________________________________________________________

It doesn't mandate, nor disqualify, a pre-70th week rapture. The rapture could happen pre-70th week, in the next minute. It means - any time between now, this very second, and when it actually takes place - some time before the Day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

And no-one can figure that exact day out (even after the 7 years begin) because there is not enough information given - regarding the transgression of desolation act.

The Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night because no-one saying peace and safety at that time are going to be expecting the Antichrist's actions.

1Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And even if the body of Christ has not been raptured before the seven years begin and are still here - and recognize the Antichrist for who he is right off the bat- it still cannot be determined what day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God.

You reference a pertinent passage that has bearing upon this subject. Rev 3:10 is a promise to the faithful Philadelphian church. Because of their faith and perseverance, Jesus promised that they will be kept from the hour of testing. Thus it can be surmised that if any church was to be raptured, it would certainly be the Church of Philadelphia. Given this assumption, if one can determine what Jesus meant by the hour of testing that will come upon the whole earth, then one can reasonably determine when the "rapture" occurs.

In my opinion the hour of testing, refers to the hour of Babylon's destruction.
Rev 18:10
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’
Rev 18:17
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ “Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
Rev 18:19
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’

Therefore the rapture of the Philadelphian Church and the rest of the Saints takes place just prior to the hour of Babylon's demise which occurs at the end of the great tribulation - not before the tribulation as rapture adherents hold to. This is further confirmed by Jesus' own words when he gives instruction as to when he returns.
Rev 16:15-16
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
Mystery Babylon and all those aligned with her are ultimately destroyed at Armageddon but the Philadelphian Church and the rest of the persevering saints are kept from the hour of testing that is to come upon the whole word when Jesus "raptures" them just prior to this battle.

 

[Douggg]

Therefore the rapture of the Philadelphian Church and the rest of the Saints takes place just prior to the hour of Babylon's demise which occurs at the end of the great tribulation - not before the tribulation as rapture adherents hold to. This is further confirmed by Jesus' own words when he gives instruction as to when he returns.

Then why aren't the Christians in Zechariah 14:4-5 in Jerusalem raptured with the rest of the Christians?

 

[Choose Wisely]

Does "escape" by necessity refer to a rapture event? It could be one way, but not the only way so your presumption is unfounded.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The scripture speaks for itself.

 

[BABerean2]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The scripture speaks for itself.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Those in Christ will be rewarded, instead of facing the wrath and the destruction that shall come to pass, at the time of the the judgment of the dead found above.

The same thing is found in John 5:27-30.

.

 

[Quasar92]

Heh Heh...I'm completely comfortable. Truth is cool.

Here's a suggestion...go exhume Darby and Scofield, and chastise them for being right.

They'll be more than happy to see you.

Now time for our readers to decide again for themselves.

Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ has forgiven the sins of John Darby and Cyrus Scofield, as He has yours and mine, and are with the Lord now, I will be delighted to join them when that time comes. As a WWII vet in my 95th year, that will not be much longer for you to get your above command fulfilled.

However, Your command for me to exhume them is in complete error, as they are not in their dead mortal bodies. But rather, they are in heaven with the Lord, according to 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.1

That "you are perfectly comfortable," is nice, but has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. And you are right on when you say, "truth is cool." However, your belief there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church is not a truth. For you to deny that statement, it will be necessary for you to field a Scripturally based argument, that refutes any part of the first two posts of the four, in the following link. Or your views are those that are false. Expressing your personal opinion without Scriptural support of any kind to support it is both meaningless as well as worthless.

The Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

So the rapture/Jesus' return is not related to the Revelation Chart? As I wrote earlier, show me evidence that what I've claimed about Scofield is not historical fact and is gossip. I'll wait for for your evidence....

Where do you find anything I have posted that denies the rapture of the Church not being in the OP chart form?

Nor will you find a single thing you claimed about Scofield, that I denied. I called it gossip, and the issue about it any furrther from me, is closed!


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Knowing the Lord Jesus Christ has forgiven the sins of John Darby and Cyrus Scofield, as He has yours and mine, and are with the Lord now, I will be delighted to join them when that time comes. As a WWII vet in my 95th year, that will not be much longer for you to get your above command fulfilled.

However, Your command for me to exhume them is in complete error, as they are not in their dead mortal bodies. But rather, they are in heaven with the Lord, according to 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.1

That "you are perfectly comfortable," is nice, but has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. And you are right on when you say, "truth is cool." However, your belief there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church is not a truth. For you to deny that statement, it will be necessary for you to field a Scripturally based argument, that refutes any part of the first two posts of the four, in the following link. Or your views are those that are false. Expressing your personal opinion without Scriptural support of any kind to support it is both meaningless as well as worthless.

The Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

No views that I've presented have been my own. They've rather been those of the faithful and sacrificial saints through the ages, from the ancient to the present. And there are in total far more of those, than of armchair modernists and pulpiteers who have abandoned historic prophetic orthodoxy to chase chimeras of futurized fantasy and fallacy.

Until the Church returns to the historic prophetic faith of its fathers, there can be no peace in the camp.

 

[Quasar92]

No views that I've presented have been my own. They've rather been those of the faithful and sacrificial saints through the ages, from the ancient to the present. And there are in total far more of those, than of armchair modernists and pulpiteers who have abandoned historic prophetic orthodoxy to chase chimeras of futurized fantasy and fallacy.

Until the Church returns to the historic prophetic faith of its fathers, there can be no peace in the camp.

The above opinionated oracles are what you provided to my following challenge . It is abundantly clear, you are not able to field a Scriptural argument to support your belief, there will not be any pre-trib rapture of the Church, that Jesus and His apostles taught. As documented in the four post link below, calling them all liars:

>>>That "you are perfectly comfortable," is nice, but has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. And you are right on when you say, "truth is cool." However, your belief there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church is not a truth. For you to deny that statement, it will be necessary for you to field a Scripturally based argument, that refutes any part of the first two posts of the four, in the following link. Or your views are those that are false. Expressing your personal opinion without Scriptural support of any kind to support it is both meaningless as well as worthless.

The Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church<<<

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

 

[jgr]

The above opinionated oracles are what you provided to my following challenge . It is abundantly clear, you are not able to field a Scriptural argument to support your belief, there will not be any pre-trib rapture of the Church, that Jesus and His apostles taught. As documented in the four post link below, calling them all liars:

>>>That "you are perfectly comfortable," is nice, but has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. And you are right on when you say, "truth is cool." However, your belief there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church is not a truth. For you to deny that statement, it will be necessary for you to field a Scripturally based argument, that refutes any part of the first two posts of the four, in the following link. Or your views are those that are false. Expressing your personal opinion without Scriptural support of any kind to support it is both meaningless as well as worthless.

The Biblical teachings of the pre-trib rapture of the Church<<<

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/dee...g-of-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-t-t19401898.html


Quasar92

My particular point in post #273 was not to disprove the rapture, but rather to determine why Paul used "apostasia", rather than "harpazo" (which he used in 1 Thess. 4:17), in 2 Thess. 2:3.

What's your explanation?

 

[Oldmantook]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The scripture speaks for itself.

Indeed it does, but not necessarily according to your interpretation.

 

[Oldmantook]

Then why aren't the Christians in Zechariah 14:4-5 in Jerusalem raptured with the rest of the Christians?

Unless I misunderstand your question I believe these verses refer to the Jews who flee Jerusalem. The saints are "raptured."

 

[Oldmantook]

Where do you find anything I have posted that denies the rapture of the Church not being in the OP chart form?

Nor will you find a single thing you claimed about Scofield, that I denied. I called it gossip, and the issue about it any furrther from me, is closed!


Quasar92

You called it gossip because it brings into question your pet belief about the pretrib rapture. You could not provide any evidence about what I claimed about Scofield's character was false. Suit yourself.

 

[Douggg]

Unless I misunderstand your question I believe these verses refer to the Jews who flee Jerusalem. The saints are "raptured."

My point was that the Jews at that time will be Christians. They are not raptured. Which the only reason would be that the rapture took place before they became Christians.

When do they become Christians? Well, it has to be after the Day of the Lord begins because they will be saying peace and safety up to then.

It isn't till around the middle of the 7 years that the Jews en masse become Christians. When the AoD is setup and they begin to flee to the mountains. It will be a time of mass chaos in Israel. The two witnesses will provide some protection for the Jews as they flee, but after a couple of months they will killed and that window will be not as open.

The 7th trumpet sounds and there is the war in the second heaven, Satan and his angels cast down. Which in Revelation 12:10 is about the Jews, Israel, becoming Christians, at that time.