Revelation in chart form

BABerean2 · Feb 25, 2018

Quasar92 said:
FYI, the OP is about Revelation in Chart form, by Arnold Fruchtenbaum. C.I. Scofield provided an annotated Bible for the general public. A tirade was initiated about the person of Scofield, which has nothing whatever to do with the subject of the thread!
It is nothing but flat out gossip and a personal vendetta against him, that has nothing at all to do with the thread subject. No amount of arguing is going to excuse those facts!

Quasar92

What is the relationship between Arnold Fruchtenbaum's charts and the teachings of C.I. Scofield?
The two cannot be separated.

.

Choose Wisely · Feb 25, 2018

Oldmantook said:
We both agree that Jesus will come back as a thief. Did Jesus say he will come back as a thief at the rapture before the tribulation as you erroneously believe? Let's allow Jesus to speak for himself.
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 16:15-16.
The rapture occurs just before the battle of Armageddon which occurs at the end of the tribulation - not before.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Ever notice how it doesn't say.........The sign of the son of man appears in heaven, and THEN the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light and the stars fall heaven.

It says the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light and the stars will fall from heaven.......AND THEN THE SIGN OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN HEAVEN.

How is it that you guys know exactly when Jesus will come and yet you can't comprehend these verses:

Luke 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

He is coming more than once. There is more than one day of the Son of man..........just like it says in Luke 17.

Can it get any clearer? He says that you can escape all the things that shall come to pass.

Quasar92 · Feb 25, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Where does it state "plainly and outright" that God will keep his followers out of the GT? Just because there are different harvests, it does not necessitate there will also be more than one harvest of the saints. That is just inference at best.

There is only one harvest of the saints/those of us who belong to Christ, His Church, BEFORE the first resurrection of the tribulation martyr/saints, in Rev.20:4. The latter are those who will be left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, in the sky, in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:16-17.

In 2 Thess.2:3:"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." in verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

Quasarf92

Quasar92 · Feb 25, 2018

BABerean2 said:
What is the relationship between Arnold Fruchtenbaum's charts and the teachings of C.I. Scofield?
The two cannot be separated.

.

FYI, the issues pertaining to the OP subject and that of Scofield, has nothing under the sun pertaining to the works of Scofield. but rather, a personal vendetta against him and his personal life! Capiche?! It's called gossip!

Quassar92

jgr · Feb 25, 2018

Quasar92 said:
There is only one harvest of the saints/those of us who belong to Christ, His Church, BEFORE the first resurrection of the tribulation martyr/saints, in Rev.20:4. The latter are those who will be left behind when the Church is CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, in the sky, in Jn.14:2-3, 28 and 1 Thess.4:16-17.

In 2 Thess.2:3:"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." in verse 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

Quasarf92

Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as rapture, but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Quasar92 · Feb 25, 2018

jgr said:
Debunked.

Here is the elaboration on 2 Thes. 2:3 in the Wycliffe translation:

3 [That] No man deceive you in any manner. For but dissension come first [For no but departing away, or dissension, shall come first], and the man of sin be showed, the son of perdition

Note that dissension (consistent with apostasy, separation, schism) is the elaboration. Rapture is unseen.

Departing/departure means departure from the truth i.e. apostasy, not rapture; falling away, not flying away.

Wycliffe himself identified the man of sin as the papacy, at whose hands the true church was suffering. He did not believe in a pretrib rapture.

And from Calvin's Geneva Study Bible:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Calvin also identified the man of sin as the papacy, and did not believe in a pretrib rapture.
Same with Tyndale. He was martyred by the papacy.
Same with Cranmer. He too was martyred by the papacy.
Coverdale was an associate of Tyndale's, and of like persuasion.
Beza was also of like persuasion.

There is no Reformer who defined the word as anything other than apostasy.

A definition of "discessio," the word used in the Vulgate, is found at this site.

Included near the end is a specific ecclesiological subdefinition:
"In the church, a separation, schism (eccl. Lat.), Vulg. Act. 21, 21; id. 2 Thes. 2, 3."

Occurrences are cited as being Acts 21:21 and 2 Thes. 2:3.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, the use of the word in Acts 21:21 is translated "forsake," which is fully consistent with the subdefinition above, and has nothing to do with rapture.

Apostacia: What Modern Greeks say about "Apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3.

Excerpt: "I could find no debate among Greek speaking Christians on how to interpret this verse. They all interpret "apostacia" in 2 Thess 2:3 to mean "apostacy"."

Does Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Refer to a ‘Physical Departure’ (i.e. the Rapture)?

2 Thess 2:3 in the Early Church Writings; How early Greek, Latin and Aramaic speaking Christians interpreted "Apostacia"/"Apostacy

The Latin Influence on 2 Thess 2:3

Of the several dozen contemporary English Bible versions in existence, not a single version translates "apostasia" as rapture, but rather as apostasy, falling away, or the equivalent.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its ensuing apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Paul's teaching about the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Which is the subject of Paul's teachings here. FYI, you have debunked nothing in it!

1 Thess..4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17after that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.'

2 Thess.2:1 is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme, of the entire passage below; The pre-trib rapture of the Church: [There is nothing in either 1 Thess.4:16-17 or in 2 Thess.2:1-8 that says anything whatever about a falling away or an apostasy!]

2 Thes.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the apostasia/discesio [Greek and Latin words that mean departure, or to depart] occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [The one body of Christ, His Church] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Please notice, the man of lawlessness/the Antichrist, IS NOT revealed until AFTER the Church departs/is taken out of the way.

That is what 2 Thes.2:3 means. See my post #263 for the translation history.

Parenthetics mine

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Feb 25, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Paul's teaching about the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Which is the subject of Paul's teachings here. RYI, you have debunked nothing in it!

1 Thess..4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17after that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.'

2 Thess.2:1 is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme, of the entire passage below; The pre-trib rapture of the Church: [There is nothing in either 1 Thess.4:16-17 or in 2 Thess.2:1-8 that says anything whatever about a falling away or an apostasy!]

2 Thes.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the apostasia/discesio [Greek and Latin words that mean departure, or to depart] occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [The one body of Christ, His Church] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Please notice, the man of lawlessness/the Antichrist, IS NOT revealed until AFTER the Church departs/is taken out of the way.

That is what 2 Thes.2:3 means. See my post #263 for the translation history.

Parenthetics mine

Quasar92

In context, without your "cherry-picking" of scripture to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
(The word "descend" means to come down.)
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. (The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (This is the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 and is clearly a Second Coming event, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16.)

1Th 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. (This verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Th 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

.

jgr · Feb 25, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Paul's teaching about the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Which is the subject of Paul's teachings here. RYI, you have debunked nothing in it!

1 Thess..4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17after that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.'

2 Thess.2:1 is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme, of the entire passage below; The pre-trib rapture of the Church: [There is nothing in either 1 Thess.4:16-17 or in 2 Thess.2:1-8 that says anything whatever about a falling away or an apostasy!]

2 Thes.2:1 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the apostasia/discesio [Greek and Latin words that mean departure, or to depart] occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [The one body of Christ, His Church] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Please notice, the man of lawlessness/the Antichrist, IS NOT revealed until AFTER the Church departs/is taken out of the way.

That is what 2 Thes.2:3 means. See my post #263 for the translation history.

Parenthetics mine

Quasar92

You're right, but the Reformers are wrong?

You're right, but the Greeks are wrong about their own language?

You're right, but the translators of dozens of contemporary English Bible versions, including Darby and Scofield, are wrong?

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Quasar92 · Feb 25, 2018

BABerean2 said:
In context, without your "cherry-picking" of scripture to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
(The word "descend" means to come down.)
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. (The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (This is the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 and is clearly a Second Coming event, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16.)

1Th 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. (This verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Th 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2Th 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

.

For your edification, the reference Paul made to the Thessalonian church, in 1 Thess.4:13, pertaining to their members who had "fallen asleep," refers to those who had died physically in Christ. When they died physically, He immediately took their spirit/soul to heaven with Him, recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Who will all return with Christ, when He returns for everyone left on earth alive at His coming, recorded in verses 14-16. From where He will take us all to our Father in heaven, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 14; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8. See Lk.16:19-32 for a perfect OT profile of it. The difference now, from the OT system, is that all believers go to be with Christ in heaven, rather to Agraham's side in Sheol. That was because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins. As can be clearly seen, there is no such thing as spirit/soul sleep, until the return of Christ, of believers who die in Him See also the Great Multitude, in Rev.7:9-32 and those under the alter of God in Rev.6:9-13.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Feb 26, 2018

jgr said:
You're right, but the Reformers are wrong?

You're right, but the Greeks are wrong about their own language?

You're right, but the translators of dozens of contemporary English Bible versions, including Darby and Scofield, are wrong?

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Could it be that your assessment of Scriptural interpretation of eschatology could be wrong? Such as the Greek word "apostasia" Paul used in 2 Thess.2:3, in reference to the "departure" of the Church. That Jerome translated in the Vulgate, with the word "Discessio," Latin, for "departure." Review the following historical facts about it, for your edification:
Is the Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3?
(By Thomas Ice)

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction” (2nd Thessalonians 2:3).

I believe that there exists a strong possibility that 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking about the Rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself believe that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated “apostasy,” is a reference to the Rapture and should be translated “departure.” Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the Rapture first takes place. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 supports strong evidence for pretribulationism.

THE MEANING OF APOSTASIA

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2nd Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, “that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses.” The word is a Greek compound of apo, or “from” and istemi, or “stand.” Thus, it has the core meaning of “away from” or “departure.”

Liddell and Scott’s “A Greek English Lexicon” defines apostasia first as “defection, revolt”; then secondly as “departure, or disappearance.” Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13; 1st Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:12).The word is used for departing from iniquity (2nd Timothy 2:19), from ungodly men (1st Timothy 6:5), from the Temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2nd Corinthians 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13). “It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages,” concludes Daniel Davey, “that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure.” Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that “the falling away” (2:3) must come before the Tribulation? The definite article “the” denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for “falling away,” taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean “to fall,” as the Greeks have another word for that [pipto, I fall; TDI]. The best translation of the word is “to depart.” The Apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls “the departure,” and which will occur just before the start of the Tribulation. This is the Rapture of the Church. So the word has the core meaning of “departure” and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as a departure from the faith.

TRANSLATION HISTORY

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608). This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of AD 400 renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning “departure.” Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”? Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as “falling away.” Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as “departure.” No good reason was ever given.

THE USE OF THE ARTICLE

It is important to note that Paul used a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.”

Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is “to denote a previous reference.” “The departure Paul previously referred to was ‘our being gathered to him’ (v. 1) and our being ‘caught up’ with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1st Thessalonians 4:17),” notes Dr. Lewis. 8 The “departure” was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul said in verse 5, “Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure like the Rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27–32; 1st Timothy 4:1–5; 2nd Timothy 3:1–9; 2nd Peter 2:1–3; Jude 3–4, 17–21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the Rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text.

E. Schuyler English explains as follows:

Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on Earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to “the departure” was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentioned the doctrine of apostasy; however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the Rapture (cf. 1:9–10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13–17; 5:1–11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the Rapture. It should not be surprising that he used another term to reference the Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:

Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2–3) that the “Day of the Lord” had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from God’s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the “Day of the Lord.” Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the “Day of the Lord” had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the “Day of the Lord.” The entire second chapter (as well as 1st Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ’s coming as taught in his first letter.

DEPARTURE AND THE RESTRAINER

Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib Rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary, in a letter to Schuyler English, has said the following concerning this matter:

I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7–8, a little further down.According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the Man of Sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: “And then shall that Wicked be revealed.” Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of “departure,” while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as “falling away” because of the proximity of the mention of the Man of Sin.

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute, added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

But then the apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy, which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event.The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the “Day of the Lord,” and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.

CONCLUSION

he fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, and I believe it is, then it means that a clear, prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his apostolic ministry. Paul taught in 2nd Thessalonians 2 that the Rapture would occur before the “Day of the Lord” commences. It is not until after the beginning of the “Day of the Lord” that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!

Quasar92

jgr · Feb 26, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Could it be that your assessment of Scriptural interpretation of eschatology could be wrong?

Could it be that yours is wrong?

Could it be that every one of the Reformers, Greeks, and several dozen Bible translators is wrong?
Not a chance.

Quasar92 · Feb 26, 2018

jgr said:
Could it be that yours is wrong?

Could it be that every one of the Reformers, Greeks, and several dozen Bible translators is wrong?
Not a chance.

Your above contribution of unsupported personal opinion in the above, immediately following my post #270 that clearly refutes your remarks about the Greeks knowing their own language. You have been shown before, from informed sources, the Greek term"apostasia," has more than one meaning. That in the context of what Paul was teaching in 2 Thess.2:1-8, was about a pre-trib rapture of the Church, in which "apostasia" in verse 3, means "departure," as translation history proves, not "apostasy" or "falling away," for the context the word was used in. The theme of which, Paul set forth in verse one, "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," that is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, "...After that. we who are left will be gathered together to the Lord in the air, and we will be with Him forever [paraphrased]."

In about 320 A.D., Jerome translated the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate, where He used the Latin word, "discessio," for the Greek word, "apostasia," also meaning "departure," which the first seven English translations of he Bible used, until the 17th century, when KJV scribes altered the word"apostasia," to mean "falling away," in 1611 A.D.

Now, show me how "apostasy," or "falling away." fits into the above context, in any way, shape of form! As for the rest of your post, an exercise in more personal opinion, without a shred of support to verify it by!

Quasar92

jgr · Feb 26, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Your above contribution of unsupported personal opinion in the above, immediately following my post #270 that clearly refutes your remarks about the Greeks knowing their own language. You have been shown before, from informed sources, the Greek term"apostasia," has more than one meaning. That in the context of what Paul was teaching in 2 Thess.2:1-8, was about a pre-trib rapture of the Church, in which "apostasia" in verse 3, means "departure," as translation history proves, not "apostasy" or "falling away," for the context the word was used in. The theme of which, Paul set forth in verse one, "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him...," that is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17, "...After that. we who are left will be gathered together to the Lord in the air, and we will be with Him forever [paraphrased]."

In about 320 A.D., Jerome translated the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate, where He used the Latin word, "discessio," for the Greek word, "apostasia," also meaning "departure," which the first seven English translations of he Bible used, until the 17th century, when KJV scribes altered the word"apostasia," to mean "falling away," in 1611 A.D.

Now, show me how "apostasy," or "falling away." fits into the above context, in any way, shape of form! As for the rest of your post, an exercise in more personal opinion, without a shred of support to verify it by!

Quasar92

Ah yes. The Reformers, Greeks, and several dozen Bible translators are all "personal opinion".

Only to the rapture-rabid dispensational mind.

Here's more. You claim 1 Thess. 4:17 is rapture. It isn't. But if it were, why wouldn't the Greek "harpazo", which is used there, also be used in 2 Thess. 2:3, instead of "apostasia"?

Simple. Because Paul meant "apostasy".

seventysevens · Feb 26, 2018

Harpazo defined means:

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó

Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)

Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

apostasia - can also be used in context to be "departure" separation

also defined as "stand-away" in some ancient contexts it is implied as departure from , but it is not as openly defined as to snatch away as harpazo is

I have seen good arguments to support apostasia as a departing of the church , also just the departing of the HS , apostasy has been the viewpoint of western world views especially in America but there is no evidence that is how it was intended by those who penned it , When people study the rapture and other aspects of scripture from the vantage point of those who penned it , there comes much better detail in understanding the usage of terms such as , winepress , wineskins , grapes of wrath , harvest time , wheat harvest , barley harvest and many other terms that are used to describe scriptural prophetic events -

Sadly in America many people REFUSE to study from the vantage point of those who penned it , they would rather make it easy for themself to apply a western world modern day American viewpoint to writings that were penned 2000-4000 years ago on the other side of the planet in an entirely different culture with very different lifestyles and beliefs systems - because they would have to spend time learning the ways and culture that is very different than what they are used to , Basically being lazy and unwilling to pull themself away from their hobbies to learn about the culture of the people who gave us the Word of God .

Considering that in America over 90% of churches admittedly REFUSE to teach on any prophetic topic in church or bible studies - not in most bible colleges or seminaries and now have greatly reduced the alter calls and invitation to come down to the alter seems to be the closest that we have to any apostasy , but apostasy in a manner of huge masses of Christians falling away from their faith is not going to happen if they are truly born again servants of Almighty God - yea perhaps those you profess to be Christian that are not really as they would rather watch football or soap operas than to truly study in depth the Word of the Living God

jgr said:
Ah yes. The Reformers, Greeks, and several dozen Bible translators are all "personal opinion".

Only to the rapture-rabid dispensational mind.

Here's more. You claim 1 Thess. 4:17 is rapture. It isn't. But if it were, why wouldn't the Greek "harpazo", which is used there, also be used in 2 Thess. 2:3, instead of "apostasia"?

Simple. Because Paul meant "apostasy".

BABerean2 · Feb 26, 2018

seventysevens said:
I have seen good arguments to support apostasia as a departing of the church , also just the departing of the HS

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.

Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.

jgr · Feb 26, 2018

seventysevens said:
Harpazo defined means:

Strong’s Concordance
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó

Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad’-zo)

Definition: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

apostasia - can also be used in context to be "departure" separation

also defined as "stand-away" in some ancient contexts it is implied as departure from , but it is not as openly defined as to snatch away as harpazo is

I have seen good arguments to support apostasia as a departing of the church , also just the departing of the HS , apostasy has been the viewpoint of western world views especially in America but there is no evidence that is how it was intended by those who penned it , When people study the rapture and other aspects of scripture from the vantage point of those who penned it , there comes much better detail in understanding the usage of terms such as , winepress , wineskins , grapes of wrath , harvest time , wheat harvest , barley harvest and many other terms that are used to describe scriptural prophetic events -

Sadly in America many people REFUSE to study from the vantage point of those who penned it , they would rather make it easy for themself to apply a western world modern day American viewpoint to writings that were penned 2000-4000 years ago on the other side of the planet in an entirely different culture with very different lifestyles and beliefs systems - because they would have to spend time learning the ways and culture that is very different than what they are used to , Basically being lazy and unwilling to pull themself away from their hobbies to learn about the culture of the people who gave us the Word of God .

Considering that in America over 90% of churches admittedly REFUSE to teach on any prophetic topic in church or bible studies - not in most bible colleges or seminaries and now have greatly reduced the alter calls and invitation to come down to the alter seems to be the closest that we have to any apostasy , but apostasy in a manner of huge masses of Christians falling away from their faith is not going to happen if they are truly born again servants of Almighty God - yea perhaps those you profess to be Christian that are not really as they would rather watch football or soap operas than to truly study in depth the Word of the Living God

Paul penned in Greek. The Greeks have told us the meaning of what he penned.

Given a choice between a Greek interpreting his own native language, and a non-Greek attempting to interpret a non-native language; there's no question as to whom I'll choose, every time.

There is no defensible explanation for Paul choosing apostasia when harpazo would have been the logical, obvious, consistent choice.

The attempt to recast apostasia from apostasy to rapture was unknown until the late 19th century. It first appeared in 1895. It is a modernist contrivance.

The body of evidence, from the historic to the contemporary, is enormous and unassailable.

Except, of course, for those who do not believe in something called evidence.

Quasar92 · Feb 26, 2018

jgr said:
Ah yes. The Reformers, Greeks, and several dozen Bible translators are all "personal opinion".

Only to the rapture-rabid dispensational mind.

Here's more. You claim 1 Thess. 4:17 is rapture. It isn't. But if it were, why wouldn't the Greek "harpazo", which is used there, also be used in 2 Thess. 2:3, instead of "apostasia"?

Simple. Because Paul meant "apostasy".

Your above personal opinions are completely refuted in my posts #270 and #272. Let me see your Scriptural support to try proving any of them.

In addition, your statement that 1 Thess.4:17 is not a rapture, is more false misrepresentation of the prophetic Scriptures, the following four post link refutes you on. The first two posts consist of the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you are calling liars. The third post is the Chronological order of end time events and the fourth post consists of a listings of esteemed men of God, from most every walk of Christian teachings, who all fully endorse, the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Let me see your Scriptural views proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church is false. Failure to do so, is evidence your views are those that are false.

Your wondering why certain words were not used to reveal the text is about a rapture, instead of those that were, is an example of an untrained mind on the study of Biblical eschatology. May I suggest you consider listening to those who do.

Quasar92

jgr · Feb 26, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Your above personal opinions are completely refuted in my posts #270 and #272. Let me see your Scriptural support to try proving any of them.

In addition, your statement that 1 Thess.4:17 is not a rapture, is more false misrepresentation of the prophetic Scriptures, the following four post link refutes you on. The first two posts consist of the Biblical teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, you are calling liars. The third post is the Chronological order of end time events and the fourth post consists of a listings of esteemed men of God, from most every walk of Christian teachings, who all fully endorse, the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

Let me see your Scriptural views proving the pre-trib rapture of the Church is false. Failure to do so, is evidence your views are those that are false.

Your wondering why certain words were not used to reveal the text is about a rapture, instead of those that were, is an example of an untrained mind on the study of Biblical eschatology. May I suggest you consider listening to those who do.

Quasar92

See post #276. Then go argue elsewhere.

Quasar92 · Feb 26, 2018

jgr said:
See post #276. Then go argue elsewhere.

Supposing you take your own advice as it seems to be getting too hot for you here.

2 Thess.2:3: Falling away or departure?

Evidence for the historic translation of this passage of Scripture has been posted on this site 15 or 20 times. Bit when the mind of a person is made up and cast in stone, they will neither look for it nor see it. Here is more from another random source for your edification:

The context of the chapter is the Rapture, "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" - and the timing of the Tribulation, "as though the Day of Christ had come".

The Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), the Day of Wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15) are terms for the Tribulation period.

The word day here is not a 24 hour day as one might assume. The usage is likened to if you were to say, "Back in my day, we did not have access to free and informative websites to learn about Bible Prophecy. We had to buy books". Day refers to a time period. Here it is Daniel's 70th Week - the Tribulation Period.

Paul had written a first letter to the church of Thessalonica prior to this second letter and revealed the rapture to them in 1 Thessalonians 4. It seems a second letter was necessary to clear up confusion because someone had forged a letter in Paul's name telling them that they had missed the rapture and that the Day of the Lord had begun. Paul notes above that they were troubled by this - as they should have been had it been true.

This alone tells us that the early church was taught that they would NOT be going through the "Day of the Lord" - the Tribulation. This should be enough to convince any thinking person of the very early and true teaching of the pre-Tribulation rapture, but we can unpack much more evidence.

A Falling Away or The Departure?

Let us get this first point clear right out of the gate. The Word was NOT originally written in English. The Word was originally written in Aramaic/Hebrew and Greek and was translated into English more than one thousand years later. Latin preceded the English.

Read this carefully - ALL English Bibles are poor TRANSLATIONS of the Father's intended message and that is compounded by the fact that they have many errors. A true scholar will look to the original languages for the truth. The term "falling away" of the Bible translation above is improperly derived from the Greek noun apostasia.

The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the "the departure" or "the departing".

Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)
Unfortunately, as time goes by, we see our English translations progressively faltering in greater and greater ways.

Supervening these early Bibles, The King James Bible of 1611 was the first to actually change the above correct translations from "departure" to "falling away". To this day, no good reason has ever been given.

It is terribly unfortunate that most English translators have followed the KJV in departing from translating apostasia as "departure". This has caused much confusion as to the timing of the coming of our Messiah and our gathering to Him. It has also darkened the abilities of many to rightly divide the Word.

You may have noticed that many combatants of the factual pre-Tribulation Rapture pitch their tent in the "KJV Only" camp. This cult (as many have called it) mistakenly worships a translation which they have been deceived to believe is somehow perfect. Let me assure you that no translation of Scripture is without error. Man cannot help but tamper with it. Only the original books and letters by the original authors are perfect.

Many of the later translations continue the confusion. We find translators have used the words "apostasy", "revolt" and "rebellion" and push the view that it is "apostasy from the faith" in the latter days. However, extensive studies in the Scriptures confirm that this word in almost every case means "departure from" - a physical departure. It cannot be an abstract departure from faith in this context. The facts give a staggering amount of weight that this "departure" is the very physical rapture itself - the changing of bodies from corruptible to incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) BEFORE the Man of Sin is revealed.

The Latin Vulgate - St. Jerome's Latin Bible translation from the late fourth-century (prior to all English translations above) used discessio which translates as "departure".

E. Schuyler English, one of our finest Greek scholars translates this word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "the departure".

The Revealing of the Man of Sin

Let me be clear. The Man of Sin - The Lawless One - The Antichrist, will be revealed to the world at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period whether those left behind know who he is or not. Most people will not understand who he really is even when he sits in the newly rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

These unfortunate souls likely failed to read their Bibles - and mocked those who did. If they were to understand who he is, and if they were in their right mind, they would never follow him, take his mark or worship his image (abomination/graven image/idol). However, Scripture clearly states that many will eternally burn in the Lake of Fire for doing so (Revelation 13:16, 14:9-11, 16:2, 19:20). Remember, he is the beast and a deceiver.

When the first seal is broken in Revelation 6 and a rider (The Man of Sin) on a white horse hits the world stage, the Tribulation period begins and the Man of Sin is considered revealed.

For the complete article:

Bible Prophecy Q&A | A Falling Away or The Departure?

Quasar92

jgr · Feb 27, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Supposing you take your own advice as it seems to be getting too hot for you here.

2 Thess.2:3: Falling away or departure?

Evidence for the historic translation of this passage of Scripture has been posted on this site 15 or 20 times. Bit when the mind of a person is made up and cast in stone, they will neither look for it nor see it. Here is more from another random source for your edification:

The context of the chapter is the Rapture, "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him" - and the timing of the Tribulation, "as though the Day of Christ had come".

The Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), the Day of Wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-15) are terms for the Tribulation period.

The word day here is not a 24 hour day as one might assume. The usage is likened to if you were to say, "Back in my day, we did not have access to free and informative websites to learn about Bible Prophecy. We had to buy books". Day refers to a time period. Here it is Daniel's 70th Week - the Tribulation Period.

Paul had written a first letter to the church of Thessalonica prior to this second letter and revealed the rapture to them in 1 Thessalonians 4. It seems a second letter was necessary to clear up confusion because someone had forged a letter in Paul's name telling them that they had missed the rapture and that the Day of the Lord had begun. Paul notes above that they were troubled by this - as they should have been had it been true.

This alone tells us that the early church was taught that they would NOT be going through the "Day of the Lord" - the Tribulation. This should be enough to convince any thinking person of the very early and true teaching of the pre-Tribulation rapture, but we can unpack much more evidence.

A Falling Away or The Departure?

Let us get this first point clear right out of the gate. The Word was NOT originally written in English. The Word was originally written in Aramaic/Hebrew and Greek and was translated into English more than one thousand years later. Latin preceded the English.

Read this carefully - ALL English Bibles are poor TRANSLATIONS of the Father's intended message and that is compounded by the fact that they have many errors. A true scholar will look to the original languages for the truth. The term "falling away" of the Bible translation above is improperly derived from the Greek noun apostasia.

The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the "the departure" or "the departing".

Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)
Unfortunately, as time goes by, we see our English translations progressively faltering in greater and greater ways.

Supervening these early Bibles, The King James Bible of 1611 was the first to actually change the above correct translations from "departure" to "falling away". To this day, no good reason has ever been given.

It is terribly unfortunate that most English translators have followed the KJV in departing from translating apostasia as "departure". This has caused much confusion as to the timing of the coming of our Messiah and our gathering to Him. It has also darkened the abilities of many to rightly divide the Word.

You may have noticed that many combatants of the factual pre-Tribulation Rapture pitch their tent in the "KJV Only" camp. This cult (as many have called it) mistakenly worships a translation which they have been deceived to believe is somehow perfect. Let me assure you that no translation of Scripture is without error. Man cannot help but tamper with it. Only the original books and letters by the original authors are perfect.

Many of the later translations continue the confusion. We find translators have used the words "apostasy", "revolt" and "rebellion" and push the view that it is "apostasy from the faith" in the latter days. However, extensive studies in the Scriptures confirm that this word in almost every case means "departure from" - a physical departure. It cannot be an abstract departure from faith in this context. The facts give a staggering amount of weight that this "departure" is the very physical rapture itself - the changing of bodies from corruptible to incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) BEFORE the Man of Sin is revealed.

The Latin Vulgate - St. Jerome's Latin Bible translation from the late fourth-century (prior to all English translations above) used discessio which translates as "departure".

E. Schuyler English, one of our finest Greek scholars translates this word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "the departure".

The Revealing of the Man of Sin

Let me be clear. The Man of Sin - The Lawless One - The Antichrist, will be revealed to the world at the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation period whether those left behind know who he is or not. Most people will not understand who he really is even when he sits in the newly rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

These unfortunate souls likely failed to read their Bibles - and mocked those who did. If they were to understand who he is, and if they were in their right mind, they would never follow him, take his mark or worship his image (abomination/graven image/idol). However, Scripture clearly states that many will eternally burn in the Lake of Fire for doing so (Revelation 13:16, 14:9-11, 16:2, 19:20). Remember, he is the beast and a deceiver.

When the first seal is broken in Revelation 6 and a rider (The Man of Sin) on a white horse hits the world stage, the Tribulation period begins and the Man of Sin is considered revealed.

For the complete article:

Bible Prophecy Q&A | A Falling Away or The Departure?

Quasar92

Heh Heh...I'm completely comfortable. Truth is cool.

Here's a suggestion...go exhume Darby and Scofield, and chastise them for being right.

They'll be more than happy to see you.

Now time for our readers to decide again for themselves.

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