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Revelation Disproves Rapture

Spiritual Jew

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Yes, you have cited several passages in Revelation of persons appearing in heaven that have come out of the great tribulation. I agree that there will be a great multitude (as described in Revelation 7) of saints who go through the great tribulation, who will die during that time, their souls going to heaven. Those saints will be mostly persons who become Christians during the great tribulation.

But that does not mean that there will not be a resurrection/rapture into eternal life, incorruptible bodies before the great tribulation starts. Those resurrection/rapture saints make up the bride of Christ who will be returning with Jesus on white horses in Revelation 19.

So what about the souls of the great tribulation saints, who die during the great tribulation ? There will be a resurrection for those souls in Revelation 20:4-6, to receive their eternal life, incorruptible bodies.
But, Revelation 20:4-6 refers to "the first resurrection". If that was referring to a mass bodily resurrection of believers then, in your view, that would be the second resurrection and not the first resurrection. You have a first resurrection already occurring before "the first resurrection", which you understand to be a mass bodily resurrection of believers.

I, of course, disagree with Premillennialism, but at least post-trib premils don't try to say there is a mass bodily resurrection event even before the first resurrection, which Premils see as a mass bodily resurrection event.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Thats because it doesn't mean anyone will be taken up to heaven.
Jesus has just departed from heaven then, - why shouldn't His people go with Him to Jerusalem?
I, of course, disagree with you on where we will be taken after meeting Him in the air (nevermind that for now, please), but we do agree that it would make no sense for Jesus to descend from heaven, only to turn around and go back there again. Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven instead of in the air if He was going to take us there, right? The pre-trib rapture theory makes no sense at all.
 
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Douggg

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But, Revelation 20:4-6 refers to "the first resurrection". If that was referring to a mass bodily resurrection of believers then, in your view, that would be the second resurrection and not the first resurrection. You have a first resurrection already occurring before "the first resurrection", which you understand to be a mass bodily resurrection of believers.
The term "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 is that it will be the first resurrection relative to the millennium.

The second resurrection relative to millennium will be for the great white throne judgment.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Dougg: “There will have to be a temple built in order for the end times prophecy in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 8:11-13 of stopping the animal sacrifices to be fulfilled.”

If your end times system depends on the Temple being rebuilt, it fails. Less than 1% of the Jews in Israel have any flicker of interest in rebuilding the Temple even if the political situation allowed it. (It doesn’t.) Most ultra-orthodox rabbis say that no one should even set foot on the Temple Mount because you might be stepping on the Holy of Holies. This makes no sense to me. The Holy of Holies was de-consecrated when the Romans destroyed the Temple, but that is what ultra-orthodox rabbis say.

At one time in the past, when almost everyone kept animals, lived in close proximity to them, and slaughtered their own meat, animal sacrifice made emotional sense to people. Today, it doesn’t. Animal sacrifice is not going to be resumed.

Dougg: “The Jews (Judaism) in Israel are looking to rebuild their temple dedicated to the praise and worship of the One True God. There are organizations focused on that desire, such as, the temple institute, and the temple mount faithful.”

I am familiar with the Temple Institute. They are an insignificant minority. If you believe otherwise, you’ve been hoodwinked.
Isn't it something that his entire doctrine hinges on something that is highly unlikely to ever happen? Without a supposed rebuilt temple where animal sacrifices would supposedly be reinstated and where a supposed Antichrist will supposedly sit, his doctrine falls apart.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The term "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 is that it will be the first resurrection relative to the millennium.

The second resurrection relative to millennium will be for the great white throne judgment.
No, the term "first resurrection" is not just something that only applies to Revelation 20, but is something referenced in other scripture as well.

Other scripture says that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Paul gave the order of resurrections of believers and it doesn't match what you believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

As he did in Acts 26:23, Paul mentions here that Christ's resurrection was first in order and next in order are "they that are Christ's at his coming". Paul knew nothing about two future mass bodily resurrection events, as you believe, because that is not what is going to happen. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Jesus returns and none will be resurrected any time before that. That is what Paul indicated, so you should believe Paul.
 
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Dale

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Isn't it something that his entire doctrine hinges on something that is highly unlikely to ever happen? Without a supposed rebuilt temple where animal sacrifices would supposedly be reinstated and where a supposed Antichrist will supposedly sit, his doctrine falls apart.

Good point, Spiritual Jew. Actually, it is possible that the Temple Mount will be desecrated. If there is an antichrist idol that is going to be set up, that could happen outside, or in the Dome of the Rock. That would substantially fulfill the prophecy in Daniel, if you accept that it applies to the end time, and not just to historic times. It looks like prophecy says that an evil dictator will bring an army into the Midde East and take control of Israel and who knows what other territories. I cannot imagine an evil antichrist building a Jewish Temple just so that he could have something to desecrate.

I believe that Dougg's view is that this evil dictator who takes control of the Middle East will be accepted by the Jews in Israel as their Messiah. I don't think this is possible and I don't think it is needed for the fulfillment of prophecy. If this invading dictator has a large enough army behind him, it won't matter what Israelis think or want, they just won't be able to stop it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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But not of the millennium.
So what? Is Revelation 20 the only passage in your Bible? You need to interpret scripture in light of all scripture and not interpret a passage in isolation from all other scripture. Cherry picking scripture is how cults interpret scripture. You should not interpret scripture like they do.
 
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JulieB67

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Did you know one person was responsible for creating the chapter breaks (Stephen Langton in the early 13th century)? That's kind of insane. It should have been a committee making that determination instead of just one person. I can't believe everyone just accepted what one person decided about where the chapter breaks should be.
No, I did not know that. I'm shocked that it was not done by a committee as well. Unbelievable it was left to one person to make those choices.

I, of course, disagree with you on where we will be taken after meeting Him in the air (nevermind that for now, please), but we do agree that it would make no sense for Jesus to descend from heaven, only to turn around and go back there again.
I know we share different beliefs as well but this one we for sure agree on. It makes no sense for Christ not only to descend from heaven but is bringing these with him only to turn back again and return. Why bring them at all at that point? It makes no sense.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
 
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keras

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I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
We are told exactly whose souls Jesus will bring with Him:- Revelation 20:4b....I saw the souls of those who were killed for their witness of Jesus., during the 3 1/2 years of Satanic world control...... they lived again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
So; the way to accompany Jesus when He Returns, is to get your head chopped off for refusing to renounce your Christian faith.
Any other theories, are just fanciful dreams and false teachings.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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We are told exactly whose souls Jesus will bring with Him:- Revelation 20:4b....I saw the souls of those who were killed for their witness of Jesus., during the 3 1/2 years of Satanic world control...... they lived again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
So; the way to accompany Jesus when He Returns, is to get your head chopped off for refusing to renounce your Christian faith.
Any other theories, are just fanciful dreams and false teachings.
You are not reading that verse correctly. It's not only referring to those who are beheaded, but all of those who do not worship the beast, which is all whose names are written in the book of life. In contrast, those who worship the beast are all those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Revelation 13:8 All who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slaughtered.
 
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Dale

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We are told exactly whose souls Jesus will bring with Him:- Revelation 20:4b....I saw the souls of those who were killed for their witness of Jesus., during the 3 1/2 years of Satanic world control...... they lived again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
So; the way to accompany Jesus when He Returns, is to get your head chopped off for refusing to renounce your Christian faith.
Any other theories, are just fanciful dreams and false teachings.

If that was a quote from the Bible, what translation is that?
 
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keras

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If that was a quote from the Bible, what translation is that?
The Revised English Bible; 1987 Oxford Press.
It is the version recommended by Wickliffe Translators, as most accurately conveying the basic meanings of the ancient scriptures.

I did add the 3 1/2 years, to clarify the time period of those martyrs. As Revelation 13:5-7, makes clear.
 
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JulieB67

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We are told exactly whose souls Jesus will bring with Him:- Revelation 20:4b....I saw the souls of those who were killed for their witness of Jesus
If it were just those, why is Paul comforting the Thessalonians about those who are already asleep in Christ?

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
 
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keras

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If it were just those, why is Paul comforting the Thessalonians about those who are already asleep in Christ?
Because they and all of those who believe in Jesus, have His Promise of Eternal Life.
Which those still alive and the dead will receive at the Great White Throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. Proved by Rev 20:5
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is also a Prophecy about the GWT Judgment, when Death shall be no more. Rev 21:4
 
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Dan Perez

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I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling. No verse in the Bible says anything about God removing His people from a world where political events are still taking place. Where would we expect to find evidence of a “rapture”? The Book of Revelation is the most Apocalyptic book in the Bible, so we would expect to find it there. While Revelation makes no mention of anyone being “raptured,” it does say that there are martyrs in heaven.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of those who had been slain because of the word of God and
the testimony they had maintained.

They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord,
holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?”
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow-

servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been
was completed.

Revelation 6: 9-11 NIV

Revelation tells us that martyrs in heaven are “under the altar,” under God’s protection. Further, more martyrs continue to arrive in heaven and the newcomers have the same status as all the martyrs of the past.

In Revelation 19:11-14 we find the Second Coming, the return of Jesus Christ, accompanied by a heavenly army.

Re. 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white

horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he
judges and makes war.

Re. 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many
crowns. He has a name written on him that no-one knows but
he himself.
Re. 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the

Word of God.
Re. 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white
horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Who are these “armies of heaven”? Believers in a “rapture” assume that they are the raptured, those “taken” off the earth by God to protect them from the Tribulation. What does the scripture say?

The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation chapter 7. The enumeration of the 144,000 is given in verse 3 to verse 8. God’s grace is not limited to the 144,000. In verse 9 we are told that a “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation” are standing before the Throne of God.

Who are the 144,000, and the great multitude?

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes —
who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they
who have come out of the great tribulation;
they have washed
their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7: 13-14 NIV

Both the 144,000 and the rest of the “great multitude” came “out of the great tribulation.” This certainly tells us that they did not avoid persecution, or tribulation. They went through it. They came to heaven as martyrs, or perhaps they endured persecution and died of natural causes, but they went through tribulation. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14.

Re. 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing

on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and
his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Re. 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing
waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
like that of harpists playing their harps.
Re. 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the
four living creatures and the elders. No-one could learn the
song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the
earth.
Re. 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women,
for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb
wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men

and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Revelation 14:1-4

Here we are told that the Lamb, Christ, is on Mt. Zion with with the 144,000. When the 144,000 are introduced in chapter 7, they are in heaven. Then in Chapter 14, Jesus is on Mt. Zion after the Second Coming and the 144,000 are with Him. It looks like they are the army that accompanies Jesus when He returns as Judge. Revelation 14 is preview of what happens after the return of Christ in Revelation 19.

Those who are in the “army” that returns with Jesus are not the “raptured” but martyrs and others who came out of the Tribulation.



What happens on Mt. Zion? For insights from the Old Testament, see Post 2.
And some believe that when they die , that they go to heaven ,

In Luke 16:23 , we the RICH man in HELL

# 1 His Body in a GRAVE .

# 2 His SOUL is in HELL

# 3 And ECC 12:7 says his Spirit goes back to Christ

And these are those that died 2000 years AGO .


And those that die today ?

# 1 There Body goes to a GRAVE !

# 2 So where does there SPIRIT GO ?

# 3 Where does there SOUL GO ?

And today there is NO , Greek word RAPTURE in the Bible

And the words to look for are in 2 Thess 2:i look for the word PAROUSIA

And in 2 Thess 2:3 , look for the word APOSTASIA

And in 1 Thess 4 :15 look for the word , PAROUSIA

And in 1 Thess 3:13 llook for the Greek word , PAROUSIA

And in Gal 1:4 look for the word EXAIREO ,

dan p
 
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Dale

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And some believe that when they die , that they go to heaven ,

In Luke 16:23 , we the RICH man in HELL

# 1 His Body in a GRAVE .

# 2 His SOUL is in HELL

# 3 And ECC 12:7 says his Spirit goes back to Christ

And these are those that died 2000 years AGO .


And those that die today ?

# 1 There Body goes to a GRAVE !

# 2 So where does there SPIRIT GO ?

# 3 Where does there SOUL GO ?

And today there is NO , Greek word RAPTURE in the Bible

And the words to look for are in 2 Thess 2:i look for the word PAROUSIA

And in 2 Thess 2:3 , look for the word APOSTASIA

And in 1 Thess 4 :15 look for the word , PAROUSIA

And in 1 Thess 3:13 llook for the Greek word , PAROUSIA

And in Gal 1:4 look for the word EXAIREO ,

dan p

I don't know what you are trying to say. I don't believe you know your Greek words.
 
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