Revelation Chapter 4

[missjenni]

In Chapter 4 there are two questions that have hit me. #1 - in verse 4 Scripture (NIV) reads: "Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads." Here's the question: Who are the 24 elders? #2- in verse 5 Scripture (NIV) reads; "From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumbles and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God." Here's the question: What are the seven spirits of God?

I am brand new to the in depth study of God's Word, however these things are puzzling to me. I understand that the seven LAMPSTANDS in Revelation refer to the seven Churches, but the seven spirits of God is a new one on me.

Thanks in advance for the help. God Bless...

 

[Isatis]

In Chapter 4 there are two questions that have hit me. #1 - in verse 4 Scripture (NIV) reads: "Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads." Here's the question: Who are the 24 elders? #2- in verse 5 Scripture (NIV) reads; "From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumbles and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God." Here's the question: What are the seven spirits of God?

I am brand new to the in depth study of God's Word, however these things are puzzling to me. I understand that the seven LAMPSTANDS in Revelation refer to the seven Churches, but the seven spirits of God is a new one on me.

Thanks in advance for the help. God Bless...

Welcome to CF!

1-- Twenty four elders
The identity of the elders is not certain. Some think that they represent the church (see Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?).
Others view the elders as angels who comprise a heavenly ruling council (Jer.23:18,22)

2-- Seven spirits of God as represented by seven lamps presents the fullness of the sevenfold character of the Holy Spirit (Is. 11: 2-3).

 

[James4_14]

***1 Chron 24:3-5
3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

The book of Revelation concerns Israel, and Israel alone. The 24 elders are the same number chosen above in the order of the priesthood. David's choosing these priests is the same as the tabernacle. Both were a pattern of the heavenly.

 

[Shane R]

The 24 elders refer to the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. Thus a picture of unity throughout the ages is given, and completion of the covenants.

 

[James4_14]

The 24 elders refer to the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. Thus a picture of unity throughout the ages is given, and completion of the covenants.

Would you care to give references or are we to take this as speculation?
These elders are not redeemed. They already have their crowns. They are heavenly creations and are there at this moment just as the angels. I believe you have taken the "shadows" of the Heavenly and brought the Heavenly back to an earthly plane.

 

[ebedmelech]

***1 Chron 24:3-5
3 And David distributed them, both Zadok of the sons of Eleazar, and Ahimelech of the sons of Ithamar, according to their offices in their service.
4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.
5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

The book of Revelation concerns Israel, and Israel alone. The 24 elders are the same number chosen above in the order of the priesthood. David's choosing these priests is the same as the tabernacle. Both were a pattern of the heavenly.

That would be totally incorrect if you think this is the nation Israel. True believers are the "Israel of God".

This is very clear via Paul in Galations:
Galations 6:14-16
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Not only that Romans makes it very clear but people miss it:
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

That's pretty clear there.

The how about what Peter says:
1 Peter 2:9, 10
9 But you area chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


The Israel of Revelation is "all believers".

 

[Fencepost]

The "sons of thunder" Apostle James and John asked Jesus if they could sat on his right and left hand in heaven. Jesus replied "That is not mine to give, but is for who it has been prepared." So I think you can use this to answer who are the 24 elders also.

We are all still alive do you not know that. Have we shared the gospel with at least one person today? Have we repented of our sins? Do we have a changed life? These are where we should be striving. Paul wrote run the race that one may attain the prize. I mean really "RUN"

 

[James4_14]

That would be totally incorrect if you think this is the nation Israel. True believers are the "Israel of God".

This is very clear via Paul in Galations:
Galations 6:14-16
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Not only that Romans makes it very clear but people miss it:
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

That's pretty clear there.

The how about what Peter says:
1 Peter 2:9, 10
9 But you area chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.


The Israel of Revelation is "all believers".

We speak of an "ekklesia" of believers but not all "ekklesias" are the same. Individual salvation is not the question but the book of Revelation concerns the "overcomers" and the others that did take the mark of the beast. This book is confined to a specific time period and does not concern our calling, my friend. You are lumping all believers together and that is not right. Right division needs to be enforced.

 

[James4_14]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]There are at least three distinct realms of blessing:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif](1) [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Their Hope - [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Earth[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. - [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Their calling-The Earthly Kingdom - [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Israel according to the flesh -[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Rom 9:3-5[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.[/FONT]


(2)Their Hope -The Heavenly City -
***Heb 12:22-23
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Their calling-The Bride -
***Rev 21:9-10…..the bride, the Lamb's wife.…...the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Abraham's seed (includes believing Gentiles) [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Gal 3:3, 7, 9, 27-29…..having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?…...they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.....are blessed with faithful Abraham..... For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.....There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus......And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/FONT]


(3) OUR Hope - Far above all -
***Eph 4:10 He...ascended up far above all heavens....
***Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
The ONE NEW MAN -
***Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew....but Christ is all, and in all.
***Eph 2:15....for to make (create) in himself of twain (Jew and Gentile) one new man, so making peace;
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]OU[/FONT]R Calling....The joint-body -Col 1:24-26....Eph 3:3-6….his body.....which is the church:......Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;....Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations…..That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body


There are THREE phases of the second Coming of the lord in relation to said callings:
(1) Kingdom on earth. - Matthew 24 and 25.
(2) Abraham's seed. - 1 Thessalonians 4.
(3) Far above all. - Colossians 3:4.

 

[James4_14]

Calling number (2) is directly related to and concerning those "overcomers" in the book of Revelation and others throughout the ages. In Scriptures we have Israel as a national entity as God's wife (see Hosea for example). We also have the "bride of the Lamb". There is NO SUCH TERM as the "bride of Christ" for a particular reason. We are NOT the bride of Christ in our calling. We are the church which is HIS body. Our calling came into being after Israel was set aside at Acts 28.
Here is the layout of the "bride of the Lamb".


The Bride
There is a difference between the two groups presented in the Scriptures..... Israel as awife and the new group set forth as...... “The Bride of the Lamb” . The pair are in view here.
In Matthew 13 there are two parables that deal with a treasure. They differ from one another as the NATION of Israel differs from the faithful overcoming REMNANT just as a restored WIFE differs from a BRIDE. The entire nation of Israel is in view in the parable of Matthew 13:44.... “The Treasure”. The remnant according to the election of grace there is shown a smaller group as the “one pearl of great price” as seen here:
***Matt 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
In Genesis 12 we see the begetting of the special nation that was separated. They were called to higher glory than any other nation on earth. When this People (singular) was redeemed from Egypt here are the Words the Lord had for them:
***Ex 19:5-6.... Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure(s'gullah) unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine.......And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation...... (that disproves “priesthood of believers”)
***Deut 14:2.....the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar (s'gullah) people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
***Deut 26:18-19
18 And the Lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar (s'gullah) people.........
19 And to make thee high above all nations …...
***Ps 135:4 For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure (s'gullah).
***Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels (s'gullah); and I will spare them, (the faithful little group)


The term “peculiar treasure” represents the ENTIRE nation of Israel and they could rest in their position by the unchangeable character of God:
***Rom 11:29 ….the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The “Jewels” or the “One pearl of great price” in Matthew 13:46 represent those faithful overcomers who honour the Lord in a day of Israel's defection.
In the day of Israel's blessing (yet future) there WILL be one jewel that outshines the rest and that will be the remnant of faithful ones who endured throughout the days of Israel's departure. This will be seen in the parable of the “one pearl”.
Another name for Israel:
***Psalms 83:3-4
3 They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
That should be considered in connection with what follows.

The next item to notice:
“when a man hath found, he hideth”. The hidden treasure IS HIDDEN AGAIN until the day when both the treasure and the field are claimed. When the Lord Jesus walked the earth He limited His ministry to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24). He came to seek and to save that which was lost. Israel was never capable of meeting the standards under law to be that treasure. They must be redeemed. They will never be a kingdom of priests by their own merit but strictly on the basis of redemption:
***Rev 1:5-6
5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Up to Matthew 16 the Lord never mentioned His death. In verse 44 He hides the treasure. Then He gives revelation of the great price He is about to pay for its redemption. His death on the cross laid claim the treasure and the field. There the Lord Jesus gave everything. In Luke 19:11-27 we have further light cast upon this treasure that is hidden.
“A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, AND TO RETURN”. The second hiding of the treasure is symbolically declaring the postponement of the kingdom.
When day of MANIFESTATION comes it will be heard:
***Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.(unto the ages of ages).

 

[ebedmelech]

We speak of an "ekklesia" of believers but not all "ekklesias" are the same. Individual salvation is not the question but the book of Revelation concerns the "overcomers" and the others that did take the mark of the beast. This book is confined to a specific time period and does not concern our calling, my friend. You are lumping all believers together and that is not right. Right division needs to be enforced.

There's the problem you're speaking...and not the scriptures.

If you allow the scriptures to speak you find quickly that much of Revelation has been fulfilled, and that Israel is the church.

Read Romans 9, 10 and 11...they clearly tell you this from the outset:

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “ through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

I say again...Israel is the church in Revelation.

 

[James4_14]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now. To the meaning of the parable.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]All through history since the time of Abraham there has been a [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]faithful remnant (Elijah thought he was alone)[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. These will be one group at the end....... [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“holy brethren, partakers of the....[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]HEAVENLY[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] CALLING[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].....[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“who died in faith, not having received the promise”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. More concerning the remnant according to the election of grace is seen in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 1:9; 7:3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] (Shear-jashub...... “the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]remnant[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] shall return&#8221, Isaiah 11:11, 16, Ezekiel 9:4-6; 14:22 and Joel 2:32 (compare the remnant on the day of Pentecost), Micah 2:12; Romans 9:27 and 11:5. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The overcomers of the Apocalypse has the 144,000 sealed of the tribes of Israel included and the various other groups mentioned in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 12:17, 14:1-5, 15:1-3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]20:4.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] They all appear to be part of this great company called by the Lamb [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“The Pearl of Great Price”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Pearls are compared with holiness in[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 7:6[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]....the partakers of the heavenly calling are called [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“HOLY brethren”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 3:1[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].....and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“SAINTS[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] of the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Most High[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Daniel 7:22[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]They are placed into the refining process of tribulation before they enter their glory:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]***Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Anytime we see this elect remnant we are certain to find tribulation and suffering. The epistles of Peter and James are full of assuring comfort to the ones of the dispersion who believed. They were passing through the “fiery trial” and were addressed to this remnant. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]A pearl is the product of irritation in the shell of the oyster.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Significant. Is it not?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Israel's relationship to God is that of a wife....being unfaithful....has been put away....BUT.... the return of Israel is to be like the taking back of the penitent wife. That is the greatness God's grace and love. He declares it will be [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“as a young man marrieth a virgin”[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. In reality it will be the taking back again of an unfaithful wife as seen in[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Isaiah 62:4, 5[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hosea 2:19, 20[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This relationship with “all Israel” is NOT in view of the book of the Revelation[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] THAT book is concerned with the overcomers and focuses on the times of trouble that produce the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“Pearl”....the "Bride of the lamb"![/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Clarifying statement: [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]THE ELECT [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]NATION[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] ...as distinct from the Nation[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]s[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]...A treasure...A wife...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Earthly[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] calling... and city. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]THE ELECT [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]REMNANT[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] ...as distinct from [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nation... A pearl... A bride...[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Heavenly[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] calling...and city.[/FONT]

 

[James4_14]

There's the problem you're speaking...and not the scriptures.

If you allow the scriptures to speak you find quickly that much of Revelation has been fulfilled, and that Israel is the church.

Read Romans 9, 10 and 11...they clearly tell you this from the outset:

Romans 9:6-8
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “ through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

I say again...Israel is the church in Revelation.

Please show me Israel as a restored nation in the book of Revelation.

 

[ebedmelech]

Please show me Israel as a restored nation in the book of Revelation.

As soon as you can show me anything that says Israel will be restored.

 

[James4_14]

As soon as you can show me anything that says Israel will be restored.

to oblige, brother:

Joel 2:12-32 and Hosea.

***Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

***Joel 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

***Acts 1:6....Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

***Isa 32:18-20
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
19 When it shall hail, coming down on the forest; and the city shall be low in a low place.
20 Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.

***Isa 32:18-20
18 And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
19 When it shall hail, coming down on the forest; and the city shall be low in a low place.
20 Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.

***Ezek 20:35-37
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

***Obad 15-18
15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.

Pentecost was a shadow of the greater gathering. This gathering (future) will dwarf the number of those that came out of Egypt.


This restoration is only taken by inferrence here in Revelation:
***Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[James4_14]

If you allow the scriptures to speak you find quickly that much of Revelation has been fulfilled, and that Israel is the church.

Read Romans 9, 10 and 11...they clearly tell you this from the outset:

Not so, Romans 9, 10 and 11 are concerning the nation of Israel. This is as to dispensational blessings. Individual salvation is not in view.

Revelation in its entireity is yet future. The Bible says so.

***Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (sawest-past tense), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future);
Therin lay the summary of the contents of the whole book of Revelation. There is a GROSS misunderstanding of that particular verse that has led many off course in interpretation.
The verse does not denote three things as to divisions. There is only one subject and that is the prophecy of the unveiling of Jesus Christ.
The Lord told John to write what he had seen. That makes it abundantly clear that this first chapter is the introduction to the whole Book. Introductions to books are supposed to be written last to make sure the introduction matches the content of the book.
***Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God (the prophetic message), and of the testimony of Jesus Christ (which He bore), and of all things that he saw.
Those words would bear absolutely no meaning if chapter 1 had not been written AFTER he saw those things because in THAT case he had seen NOTHING.

Verse 19 is part of his introduction so the words “which thou sawest” are used in the very same sense as used in verse 2. John had seen all the visions of the book when the instruction to write was given to him. This explains why “therefore” must be added.
***Rev 1:19 Write (therefore) the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Look to the very end of the book:
***Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches (assemblies)
These things refer not only to chapter 1 but to the book in its entireity. The past, present and future of this book still resides in the future.

 

[ebedmelech]

Not so, Romans 9, 10 and 11 are concerning the nation of Israel. This is as to dispensational blessings. Individual salvation is not in view.

If you force that onto the passage. Where does it say that? Paul is addressing the church at Rome. I clearly showed you what he said:
Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “ through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Why do you just ignore that?

Revelation in its entireity is yet future. The Bible says so.

***Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (sawest-past tense), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future);Therin lay the summary of the contents of the whole book of Revelation. There is a GROSS misunderstanding of that particular verse that has led many off course in interpretation.
The verse does not denote three things as to divisions. There is only one subject and that is the prophecy of the unveiling of Jesus Christ.
The Lord told John to write what he had seen. That makes it abundantly clear that this first chapter is the introduction to the whole Book. Introductions to books are supposed to be written last to make sure the introduction matches the content of the book.
***Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God (the prophetic message), and of the testimony of Jesus Christ (which He bore), and of all things that he saw.
Those words would bear absolutely no meaning if chapter 1 had not been written AFTER he saw those things because in THAT case he had seen NOTHING.

This was spoken to John who received the revelation. Certainly it was future to him. So that does lead to gross misunderstanding especially since the reader is not John.

Verse 19 is part of his introduction so the words “which thou sawest” are used in the very same sense as used in verse 2. John had seen all the visions of the book when the instruction to write was given to him. This explains why “therefore” must be added.
***Rev 1:19 Write (therefore) the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Look to the very end of the book:
***Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches (assemblies)
These things refer not only to chapter 1 but to the book in its entireity. The past, present and future of this book still resides in the future.

Now comes the nuts and bolts. I didn't say none of Revelation is future, I said much of it has been fulfilled.

I ask you again, show me anything that means us today. The 7 churches were existent then...they are not now.

 

[James4_14]

If you force that onto the passage. Where does it say that? Paul is addressing the church at Rome. I clearly showed you what he said:
Romans 9:6-8
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “ through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Why do you just ignore that?


This was spoken to John who received the revelation. Certainly it was future to him. So that does lead to gross misunderstanding especially since the reader is not John.


Now comes the nuts and bolts. I didn't say none of Revelation is future, I said much of it has been fulfilled.

I ask you again, show me anything that means us today. The 7 churches were existent then...they are not now.

I shall dispense with the discussion on Romans 9, 10 and 11 and get back to the book of Revelation. I will search for the link concerning Romans and "all Israel" and give it to you anon. This aspect has already been posted some time back.
The new covenant that was made with the House of Israel and Judah requires the prophecy of Joel to be fulfilled and it has not. The day of Pentecost was just a small sample. His spirit will be poured out on all flesh (Joel) and that is the "time of refreshing" as given in Peter's sermon at Pentecost. This is also absent from Revelation. The New Covenant has never been in force. The New Covenant entails the restoration of Israel and other requirements. 1948 did not fulfill a thing.

Here is how these “overcomers” of Rev 20: 4 are woven into the prophecy of the last days. Here are the rewards reserved for the overcomers in the seven churches (synagogues) in Revelation:
(1)To eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God (2: 7).
(2) Not to fear, he shall not be hurt of the second death (2: 10, 11).
(3) He will eat of the hidden manna. He will also have a white stone and a new name (2: 17.....19: 12).
(4) He shall rule the nations with a rod of iron (2: 27).
(5) He shall be clothed in white, and his name shall not be blotted out of the book of life (3: 5).
(6) He will be made a pillar in the temple, and have the name of the new Jerusalem written upon him (3: 12).
(7) He will be granted to sit with Christ on His throne, even as Christ
also overcame, and is set down with His Father in His throne
(3: 21).

These are synagogues (Rev 2:9, 3:9). Not our church nor our calling. These believers know the history of Israel and every reference given from the OT they will know and understand.
Everything there is linked to the Book of Revelation. It is seen in Revelation 20: 4 that none live and reign except those who were martyred under the beast of Revelation 13:18.
***Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


“The Millennial kingdom” is very exclusive in its own rights. Again...we are not told directly that Israel is a restored people as promised. The inference is in reference to the beloved city and the camp of the saints. If Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David are to be raised from the dead at this time, they are not in the picture given in Revelation 20.
They have no place in "first resurrection”. The Scriptures plainly limit this resurrection to martyrs of the last three-and-a-half years of the dominion of the anti-Christ. Period.
Two resurrections and two only are pictured here and they form a pair :
(1)The overcomers.....every one is a martyr. This is “the first” resurrection.
(2)The rest of the dead.
No other resurrection takes place until the one at the Great White Throne at the end of the thousand years. [FONT=Balloon XBd BT, cursive]These two resurrections are complimentary in nature and make a pair and that would be “overcomers” and “the rest”.....not “saints” and “the wicked dead” as preached from the pulpit.[/FONT]
Revelation 20 reveals the Millennial kingdom is primarily the realm of reward for those who have died after suffering during the persecution by the beast and his minions of the time of the end. We are told also (in that very same passage) that there are “nations” on the earth at the same time but that is in reference to the rebellion at the end. We are told that the beloved city and the camp of the saints have a place there too but that is not the theme of Revelation.
There is one and only one resurrection recorded as taking place in this kingdom but the names of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David are not brought up. The Millennium is the instantaneous result of the Second Advent of Christ to the earth and there are associated prophecies with that phase of the coming that must find a place here. Other prophecies speak of resurrection of Israel (Dan. 12: 1-3 and Ezek. 37: 1-14). They MUST find a place but we are not told.

 

[James4_14]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7595461/

Will All Israel be saved?

 

[James4_14]

Welcome to CF!

1-- Twenty four elders
The identity of the elders is not certain. Some think that they represent the church (see Who are the twenty-four (24) elders in Revelation?).
Others view the elders as angels who comprise a heavenly ruling council (Jer.23:18,22)

2-- Seven spirits of God as represented by seven lamps presents the fullness of the sevenfold character of the Holy Spirit (Is. 11: 2-3).

It is sort of crazy to link everything to our calling/church...is it not? Even the 144,000 are plainly stated to be from the 12 tribes of Israel and many say they are the church.

Thanks for the Jeremiah reference, ma'am.