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MJ Only Revelation and the Yom Kippur Temple Service

Yahudim

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Yes I remember you. Please forgive me for being sooooo overly cautious. I hope that I haven't offended. So much has changed since I took a break from this forum. There has been so much strife since I returned. I simply wanted to know where you stood. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

As far as Vis's statement goes: ages ago there was a teaching floating around about 'the Way, the Truth and the Life'. Don't have the references to back this up, but as I recall, the names were poetic names for the three portals into the Tabernacle (Mishkan). The entry to the inner courtyard was called 'the Way' for obvious reasons; it was the place where sacrifice and cleansing allowed the inquirer to approach and seek the council of Adonai. Passage into the Mishkan was called 'the Truth' because that is where inquiries were made of His Truth. 'The Life' was a poetic reference to the Veil of Life (Parochet), the tapestry that separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies (Kodesh Hakodashim). Elohim promised a death penalty to all those that entered behind the veil except once a year on Yom Kippur and under the strict guidelines laid out in Torah, hence 'the Life'. The point of the teaching was that Y'shua would eventually replace all aspects of Torah, the Temple and its service.

One aspect of this teaching equated the flesh of Messiah to the Parochet or the veil of Life. And just as His flesh was rent and He surrendered His Spirit, so too was the Veil of LIfe rent granting access of His Spirit to us, those who believed on Him.

But this is just a guess...

Good to see you Steve Peterson. Forgive me?
 
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yedida

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I'm sure he does, Tal. Steve's a good guy. And it blew me away when his icon was gone, but I figured it was best to let you handle your own thread since it was most likely that you'd remember him eventually. He doesn't hang around that much. He's the brave dude who hangs out in GT!!!! aarrrggghhh!!

Great stuff by the way. Keep 'em coming! It's awesome information, even if it is mostly speculation. I don't think Hashem is that terribly against speculating and wondering or He wouldn't have given us an active imagination.
 
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Yahudim

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Shalom Talmidim,

I have read this post and your next one that continues on this line. To make things simpler I have only retained in your quote that which I will comment on that have struck a significant chord with me, labeled with numbers.
Shalom Sis,

Thanks for responding. Great questions BtW. I grabbed your numbered list and placed my answers in blue. I hope they are adequate.


  1. I have this book but haven't read it in a long time, perhaps it's time to dust it off. I think you can also find his works for free online. I remember posting about that awhile back in one of my book threads. Look Here: The Temple - Its Ministry and Services
  2. I looked up the reference from Eusebius found here in it's entirety and knowing that John did have connections in the area it most likely is the same John the Apostle. However we also have the cousin of Yeshua who was also named John, and by the genealogy we have in Luke, he too would also qualify as a priest. And it is recorded that he be specifically named John, which is a shortened version of Johnathan who was King Davids best friend. , Just a thought. Ahh, but the talmid that Y'shua loved was the only one recorded in scripture as having 'reclined on His bosom'...
  3. I may not be understanding you fully but are you saying that John was of the true priesthood, that from Aaron and Levi, or that he was related to the High Priest at that time? I thought it was established that the High Priests of the time were not of Aarons line? No Dear One, it was a reference to the children of Zadok, the High Priest of King David who commanded that all High Priests from then on would be of Zadok's linage.
  4. I have seen this postulated before, but my question would be, if this was written so that those of the true priesthood could read and understand it's real meaning, how does that equate with these seemingly Gentile Churches that he was to write to? Weren't we also blinded in part too?
  5. Weren't these the ones that protesting the Roman occupations went out in the desert supposedly at Qumran? I hold the view however that the archeological remains found at the Dead Sea are not related to the scrolls found. No, these the talmidim that looked for the signs ala Mat 24. Romans had surrounded Jerusalem, there were earthquake and other signs. From what I remember, the talmidim of Y'shua took refuge in several places in the mountains as He instructed. But the majority hooked 'em across Jordan for Petra and thereabouts. I'll try to find the reference I had originally. This is an old teaching I dug out recently. Forgot I even wrote it...
  6. Are you equating them with the Essenes then? There is speculation that John (cousin John) was raised by them. No.
  7. I don't think that was where it happened as some are lead to believe. I think the fullness of Pentecost came at the Temple, The house, was the House of G-d, which was the Temple at that time. Couldn't have been. They were hiding remember? And there was no part of the Temple complex that wasn't jam packed on Shavuot. On the other hand, the porch at David's palace was in close proximity to the Temple and the worshippers. That is why the attendees of the Temple service heard the commotion and came to investigate, ala Acts 2. That is my take anyway. Notice in this image that the City of David was directly adjacent to and directly south of the Temple Mount. There were probably 1.2 million people in and around the area at the time. According to ancient sources, the Temple mount was appz 190 meter x190 meters or 623.36 ft x 623.36 ft. That only comes out to 388,577 sqft.
  8. If this is a fit, and these things haven't happened yet, how are they for us today? Those they were written to would understand, but without a temple how would that play out today? Great question and the crux of these observations. Please remember to ask this question again as I post a little more info. I have some answers, but I don't want to jump too far ahead just yet. There is so much more fun to be had!
Interesting topic Tal, I hope it stays on track.
Yeah, me too!
 
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Yahudim

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There are no doubt, those among you that will marvel at the symbolism of the number Seven in these verses. So I would like to take a brief pause and address this number and it's symbolism as defined by scripture. For those of you that have read my studies on the Sevens in Scripture, you can skip ahead if you like.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
The tri-literal Hebrew root word for Oath, Fulfillment and Seven is spelled in Hebrew, Shin - Bet – Ayin.

Strong’s # 7650 shaba: Meaning: swear, charge, oath
Gen 21:23a Now therefore swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me, nor with my son, nor with my son's son:

Strong’s # 7651 sheba: Meaning: seven
Gen 5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:

Strong’s # 7646 saba: Meaning: satisfy, fill, full, plenty, satiate
Exo 16:8a And Moses said, This shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the morning bread to the full;

How the words are used…
The tri-literal root (Shin - Bet - Ayin) that carries the three fundamental meanings of...
1) sheba - Seven
2) saba - Fulfillment or Completeness,
3) shaba - Oath, Promise or Swearing
...are found associated throughout scripture. For example, the reason for seven angels with seven final plagues is explained in terms of fullness in the book of the Revelation:
Rev 15.1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Also we find how the number seven is related to an oath exemplified in Genesis 21:29-32.

What is translated as Beersheba in the KJV is actually be’er (well) of shaba (oath or swearing).


Some might presume that the Father takes His pronouncements literally - and that is how His word is fulfilled. If a single word He speaks means three different things - at least from what I have found - He utilizes all three definitions in the fulfillment of its utterance! So when we see the symbolism of seven in scripture, try and think of the related covenant (the actual swearing and the terms, associated blessings, curses and participants).

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
 
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Yahudim

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Continued...

OK, pay attention. Notice that all of these things that I have mentioned so far, are done in preparation for the morning service. Again I will ask you to please not make this a referendum on doctrine and theology. There are some references to 'raptures' in this study. By their mention, I am only seeking to illustrate how these verses MIGHT be interpreted. This is not intended as an endorsement, simply my understanding of the symbolism and how these symbols and interpretations might be linked to the Temple service.

So let’s continue with the order of events that led up to the opening of the Temple. There was a priest assigned to look for the sunrise, breaking over the mountains of Hebron. Priests were assigned to blow the Trumpets and/or the Shofar (depending on what service was being performed) to announce the commencement of the morning service and daily sacrifice at the break of day. The keys to the Temple were held at the ready and the massive doors would be swung open at that time. After the sacrifice, the High Priest would sprinkle the blood in the prescribed manner and light the incense. This before any of the special sacrifices prescribed for the Sabbath, a New Moon or a Feast Day.

  • We need the priests (saints) to be awake and about their duties. And as I mentioned before, this is represented in the admonishments to the congregations.
  • We need the incense (prayers of the saints) to be prepared.
  • We need the Menorah to be cleaned, re-wicked, re-filled with oil and lit.
  • So what else do we need to before we announce the morning service with the trumpet and open the doors to the Temple?
  • We need a Lamb...
Now notice the order of events set down in these scriptures:
True to form, the doors to the heavenly Temple are opened with the sound of trumpets. The four beasts (living creatures), the twenty-four Elders and indeed all present begin the worship. And the Lion of Judah, the Lamb “that was slain from the foundations of the world” is present. All the components needed to open the morning service are represented.

I should also remark that there were four classes of people that were included in the Temple service. These are not to be confused with the four types of people in scripture that will be covered later. The four classes of people that were included in the Temple service are the Priests, the Levites, the Nethinim (servants to the Levites) and the covenant children of Israel (worshippers and occasionally musicians). And since the Nethinim are unfamiliar to most of the readers I will include the following:

In the Revelation there are also four classes of people in the heavenly Temple. There is the High Priest that is Y'shua, the Four Beasts representing the original four courses of the Levites, the twenty-four Elders that represent the saints (and include the 144,000) both Jew and Gentile, and the four horsemen that represent the Nethinim (doing the bidding of the Four Beasts – the four division of Levites).

I am certain that this subject will require explanation and confirmation in scripture, so I will attempt to provide that here. I will also presume that the role of Y'shua as High Priest is above challenge, so I will start with the Four Beasts.

The layout of the wilderness camp is given in great detail in the book of Numbers. Each tribe had a position in the camp, was under a banner and their position corresponded with the location of the four divisions of the Levites. Judah was placed on the east, and under him he had Issachar and Zebulun; on the south was Reuben, and under him Simeon and Gad: on the west was Ephraim, and under him Manasseh and Benjamin; finally, Dan was on the north, and he had under him Asher and Naphtali.

This from the commentary of Kiel & Delitzsch:

Note: Jerome Prado, in his commentary upon Ezekiel (ch. 1 p. 44), gives the following minute description according to rabbinical tradition:

And So, we place the camp of the Levites in the following order: To the west, the Gershonites, (Num 3:22, 23). To the south, the Kohathites, (Num 3:28, 29). To the north, the Merarites, (Num 3:34, 35). And on the east, Moses, Aaron, and his sons, (Num 3:38). What is of significance is this. The Levites would first erect the Tabernacle and then arrange themselves in the order described above. There would the tribes assume their place in the encampment, setting the four major banners of Judah (the Lion), Rueben (the Man), Ephraim (the Ox) and Dan (the Eagle) according to the order of the Levites and next to them respectively – not the other way around as some assume.

The twenty-four Elders are clearly portrayed as saints in this book. In vs. 1:6 we are called kings and priests. In vs 4:4 the Elders are described in white raiment with gold crowns. All throughout scripture only the saints are described as receive crowns. This distinction does not go to angel or any other celestial being. Crowns only go to the overcomers. In chapter 4, a door is opened. Since this is the heavenly Temple and a trumpet accompanies the opening of that door, this corresponds to when the Temple is opened to the worshipers. In heaven, these are the saints and I believe that if there is to be a pre-trib rapture, this would be the time for it (actually there are seven resurrections that I have identified in scripture, but that discussion is for another study).

Now about the 144,000. There are already some righteous Elders that have preceded us into heaven. The twenty-four Elders are already ministering before the Throne as representatives of the saints. They have twenty-four divisions, just as the earthly priest did. Keep in mind that this means that these saints are already in heaven when the tribulation period begins. Also notice that the Two Witnesses and the 144,000 are not, yet they appear in chapter 11 with the Lamb. They appear to ascend at the mid-point of the seven years of the tribulation. For those counting, this means that there are two so-called 'raptures', “one pre-trib” and one “mid-trib”. This by the way, fits nicely with the morning and evening service, with the 144,000 taking on the role of the evening priests.
Shades of Ezekiel 9. Hmmm... Anyway, concerning the 144,00 as the priests of the evening service, consider this:
...and this is where I will leave off for now, with a taste of where the evening service begins. There is much more to this study, but I will let you chew on this for a bit before I continue.

BTW, reading Edershiem's "The Temple" will help you understand a little more what I am offering here. I strongly encourage you to read it.

In His Love,
 
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Yahudim

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In this break in the action, I would like to offer thanks to the Father that some of the conflicts that have plagued this forum have been, at least for the present, allowed to subside a bit. I am grateful for ALL of my Brothers and Sister in Messiah. I know that we are all on a spiritual walk that cannot be taken for us. We must walk with Him and at the pace that He reveals and that we are able to discern. Because we often end up at different places in our walk, one from another, there are differences in what we believe and how we understand scripture. Allowances must be made. But also, discipline must also be employed to keep order and reinforce the respect that we must have for others.

I know that this study has the potential to ignite controversy and conflict. So I simply wanted to say to all those that have visited and read this material; you have been so civil and so understanding. I just want to thank you for your considerate interaction.

Blessing in His Name,
 
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Yahudim

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Before I continue I have something of note from a dear friend. I hope this blesses you. The following is a line of inquiry that compiles and summarizes several years of research by Charles YTK. Due to its length, I will post it in two parts:

John the Apostle and the Zadokim connection PART I

I have some fragmented connections but they would be difficult to prove. John was a disciple of John the baptizer before leaving John to follow Y'shua. John the Baptizer was consecrated to serve God and seems to have been raised by holy men in the wilderness, even though his father was a priest.

John mentions Andrew and typically refers to himself as “The other disciple” in his narrative.These holy men I believe to be Escenes, because of the message that John preaches, his vow of celibacy, his crude manner of dress and his disdain for the temple authority and the corruption of the entire Judaic system. His message prepare a way for the lord, make straight paths for him, are right out of the Escene Membership manual.

This verse is a key “mantra” quoted in the Qumran scroll of discipline.

The Escenes saw themselves as the ones who were preparing for the Lord, their name sometimes interpreted as “The expectant ones” and calling the nation to repentance and cleansing, which for the Escenes was demonstrated through the baptisms which for the more extreme sectarians was several times a day. There have been a lot of books written about the sect. (Dead Sea Scrolls uncovered by Robert Eisenman and Michael Wise; The Dead sea scrolls and the Early Church by Lucetta Mowry; Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shanks; to name a few.)

Otto Betz wrote a chapter in Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershel Shank book pg. 205 showing the connection between the Qumran sect and John the Baptist. I have many books on the scrolls in my library. Some suggest that the Escene “TempleScroll” might be a sixth and previously lost book of the Torah according to German theologian Hartmut Stegman and that is was rejected as Canon under the reforms of Ezra in the 5th century BCE.

Many of the books of the Escenes were not sectarian but mainstream Judaism and canonical books and the Temple scroll is a good fit to the rest of Torah. It does not recover many of the other five books of Torah but stands to compliment them and “Flesh them out” you might say. At the same time the temple scroll is not a basis or reflection of Escene doctrine or the dictates of their own manual of disciple, therefore making it clear that it is not their own writing but was something copied and brought in as a reference. It is undecided as to where it fits in other Jewish writings and most notably Torah itself.

The legitimate priesthood was the Zadokites from the days of David. It was they who carried the Ark into Jerusalem and who anointed Solomon King.( I Kings 1:32) David has a covenant relationship with them. Zadokite means sons of righteousness. We see the base name Zadok, “righteous”. It is reflected in the previous high priest to Abraham Melchizedek, (King of Righteousness) and this man is a forerunner or possibly a pre-ephany of Messiah Y'shua himself, who is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. These righteous priests were expelled under the tyranny of Antiochus Epiphanes. He actually sold the high priesthood to the highest bidder you might say.

From NIV commentary:

Continued below:
 
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Yahudim

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John the Apostle and the Zadokim connection PART II (research by Charles YTK):
John the Baptist was given to the Escenes to be raised in their teachings. John’s father Zechariah was himself a descendant of the same tribal clan as Zadok. John the Apostle was formerly a disciple of John the Baptist before leaving John to follow Y'shua, and more than likely had tribal connections to them as well. This would make at least a very strong connection between the Zadokim and John the Apostle if not in linage at least in ideology and faith. John the Apostle was either an Escene or was at least a disciple of the Escenes who were Zadokim. After the Zadokites were expelled and replaced by Saducean (Hasmoneans) they settled in an area of Jerusalem that is on the very slopes of the Temple mount, a place known as the Escene Quarter. It is in this place that the summer house of David and his actual throne was located, probably the only two story structure in the 1st century. and the most likely location of, The last seder of Y'shua, (The last supper) . It seems so prophetically appropriate that Y'shua would institute the New Covenant and become our King from the very place that David ruled as King. And it was the place where the spirit was poured out on Shavuot, (Notice that Peter makes several references to David and that his grave was there with them and also quotes Davids prophetic words concerning Messiah.. (Acts 2:25-36)
Acts 2: [29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
It is also interesting to note that when the people respond to this message that the very attributes of the first church is completely in keeping with the Escenes practices of holding no personal property but holding all things in common so that no one has need of anything or goes without.

The Zadokites were in covenant with David to be the only legitimate high priests. So they were housed near his home in what was later known as the Escene Quarter. This house of David also was the site of the church of James. James was said to have been continuously a Nazarite and as such had the same right as a priest even though he is from the tribe of Judah. James was often found in the temple praying in the holy place according to Josephus. This indicates also that the first church, was located very close to the temple as the Escene Quarter and the house of David was.

When we read the revelation we see two things that speak of Escene/Zadokite theology, first of many similar references that find chorus in other Escene writings or cherished books like Enoch, who says that during Armageddon the blood will fill the valley to the horses bridle;
And that here come the lord with 10,000 time 10,000 of his saints and others such quotes.
Rev 5: [11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Also Jude, the brother of Y'shua, quotes Enoch,
The quotes go unnoticed because the bible only provides reference to canonical books and never to non-canonical. So we do not realize the strong similarities unless we have read Enoch and other such works. And the other point is that in revelation we see the purification of the temple service and the cleansing of the temple from its former Hasmonean filth which is a long anticipated hope of the Escenes/Zadokites. For example their writing The war of the sons of light and the sons of darkness and the Temple scroll and The manual of discipline.

So for me if you want to know more about John and his background, I think you have to get into the dead sea scrolls. Many of the Escenes it seems became early disciples of Y'shua as they were waiting for and expecting imminently the coming of the Messiah. When the spirit was poured on on Shavuot, it takes place once again from the throne of David in the Escene quarter, and thre thousand immediately accept Y'shua as messiah and are baptized and saved. It would be interesting to note also that archeologist have discovered a ritual “Mikvah” (ritual bath) right next door to this summer home of David, where the first church of James was established. This Mikvah (Baptismal) would have served for the rituals baptisms of the many converts. (see The Messanic Seal of the Jerusalem church, Reuven Ephraim Schmalz, and Raymond Fischer.

I believe it was the Escenes who continually prepared things for Y'shua like the upper room for Passover,
Note: Carrying water jars was considered a womans task. The Escenes were mostly celibate and would have to carry their own water pots. Also the place where the Passover was already prepared in the upper room of David’s summer Palace. The sons of Righteousness (Zadokim) were given the task of preparing David’s house in ancient times and I believe also for Messiah.

The donkey that was to be ridden into Jerusalem;
The Escenes provided a place to stay in most towns. These former Zadokim were key to his ministry in my opinion. The Escenes provided protection and housing for widows and orphans and the poor or sick or disenfranchised in almost every town in Judea.

And thus ends this summary of the Apostle John and his association with the High Priesthood of the Zadokim.

In His Love,
 
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visionary

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John saw and understood that this was not the King Messiah that the national of Israel was looking for but said “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” Have you ever wondered where in scripture does it say this besides John saying it? It is not found in scripture. To find some reference from writtings in that day, there is this quote found in the Dead Sea Scrolls... The parchment is called The Testament of Joseph and it contains the verse
2 Joseph 77 Do ye therefore, my children, observe the commandments of the LORD, and honor Levi and Judah; for from them shall arise unto you the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world, one who saveth all the Gentiles and Israel.
 
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Yahudim

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Great find Vis,

Wonder what the Sola Scriptura crowd would say about that? So what do you think so far? Have you found any places where things don't quite line up or something else jumps out at you?

I may go back and examine the congregations, their relationship to the lamps and the stars in the Pleiades. I also want to go through the symbolism in chapters 4 & 5 in more detail. I think that you really get it.

There is a lot of crossover with the Sevens teaching as well. So I might spend a little time laying a little more ground work there before we get to the examination of night service. Really, there is so much more to the day service that needs explanation. I should fill things out much more before I summarize and move to the night service. Guess I'll sleep on it.

Many thanks and blessing Sis,
 
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visionary

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I am enjoying this study.. it is right up my alley. .. been studying this for years... and am looking forward to the star study.. so I can see if you can explain the lossening of the bands of Pleiades... something I have been puzzling over for years now.
 
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Lulav

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Just wanted to address this minor point. You said that they couldn't have been at the Temple because they were hiding. Maybe I can make you look at it a bit differently?

Before Yeshua left he told them not to leave Jerusalem.

There is nothing leading up to Sha'vuot that says they were in hiding. That came later. In fact after the 'event' Luke tells us that they:

The hiding comes afterwards. Peter and John aren't even arrested until chapter 4, their job was to give testimony, starting in Jerusalem, something you can't do if you are in hiding. We don't hear of any hiding until Paul enters the picture with the stoning of Stephen.

Acts 8:1 and Sha'ul gave his approval to his murder. Starting with that day, there arose intense persecution against the Messianic Community in Yerushalayim; all but the emissaries were scattered throughout the regions of Y'hudah and Shomron.

So it is not likely they were hiding, how could they testify? Also the place where King David's tomb is, only has a small courtyard. It could not possibly hold the 120 plus the thousands that had to have been delivered the message. We know that around 3,000 repented and became saved that day, even if that was everyone that heard, they couldn't have fit in here.

It's a large photo so I didn't want to post it so it wouldn't' stretch your pages. But see the courtyard at King Davids tomb.

If there were around 1.5 million people in the temple complex, they still couldn't have heard anything close by. Besides, the disciples would also have to be in the Temple to be in obedience. It was the time of the Shacharit prayers and sacrifices in the temple.

Shavuot is the celebration of the giving of the Torah , what better day to witness to those from the Diaspora that the Living Torah had come?

When Moses speaks to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy he tells him of the one to come.

But it isn't without reference to a certain time:


It is speaking of the giving of the Torah, Shavuot.

Fire and thunder shook the mountain and scared the people. They were terrified, probably many ran away. But here we see something different, at Shavuot in Jerusalem................

1.The festival of Shavu'ot arrived, and the believers all gathered together in one place.
They all gathered. If they were all hiding together, they wouldn't be considered to be gathering together. This makes sense if they all gathered together in the temple courts. This would most likely have been the court of the women which was the largest, as there were the woman among them as it tells us in chapter 1.



2 Suddenly there came a sound from the sky like the roar of a violent wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
If they were in a true house, this sound would be described as coming from outside.

This sound instead comes from above, the sky. It is a wind, a breath. It fills the whole 'house'. Notice also they are sitting. If they are in a house, then the next part doesn't make sense.

They would likely have been in the inner courtyard, the men's courtyard, heard the sound and went out to the larger courtyard where the 120 were sitting. They heard them all, still sitting, speaking in all their languages. After talking among themselves as to what was happening, then we see that Kefa stands up with all the other apostles. They are the witnesses remember, and they are there among where all the people have gathered to hear the word of the L-RD. This voice, which is heard in each of their ears is from G-d but it is not scary as that day at the mountain.

I am still fuzzy on your other answers so will address them later when I can get back to reading it again.
 
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Yahudim

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Just wanted to address this minor point. You said that they couldn't have been at the Temple because they were hiding. Maybe I can make you look at it a bit differently?

*snip*​
Lulav sweetie, after the execution of Y'shua, they were in hiding. Remember after His resurrection, they were behind locked doors when He appeared to them. There was only 50 days between these two events. We know of 10 where they were in the upper room. Well that's how I remember it. I'll reread the Gospels and Acts to see if I have read anything into it. Biases are tricky!

Acts 2:46 was AFTER the baptism of the Ruach. And yes, they were waiting inside a building. That is sure. Even your quote said so, "and it filled the whole house where they were sitting." The general presumption is that the rushing wind that started outside, entered through the open windows. Shavuot means that it was summer in Jerusalem y'know.

Lulav, have you seen the Temple mount? The whole thing is appx 388,577 sqft. The courtyards, less than half that. No way everyone could fit in. From Wikipedia: Seven times Yankee stadium would only accommodate 366,275 people. But even if you double that, it is still only a 732,550 person capacity. But that's not possible. The whole of the Temple Mount, even after Herod enlarged it, was still only 37 acres.

As I understood it, Temple service was first come, first serve. Those that had sacrificial offering filed passed like a buffet line through the inner court of the priests. Those that didn't fit in the other courtyards stood as close as they could. The overflow was epic. But everyone knew the service by heart and participated from where they stood. No way all those required to attend could fit. Much less all not required that wanted to attend.

But I have been wrong before...

As far as the comparison goes; how do you see the symbolism of the Temple service as it compares to the Revelation? Do you see the components of the morning service? What do the symbols used mean? How are they defined in scripture? Have you thought about any of that?
 
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Lulav

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That's really cool Vis!

It brings back to mind Abraham and the binding of Isaac.
'The L-RD HIMSELF will provide the Lamb'

I did a little research and found in the Testament of Simeon is found

 
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Yahudim

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Hi Lulav,

I went back through the scriptures and your post, point for point. I didn't want to seem dismissive of your position because you have obviously put a lot of thought and effort into it. I looked at the picture that you linked and did a little research on the City of David and David's palace.

I found that I agreed with you on all points about the persecutions later in Acts. But the picture you posted is not an accurate depiction. When I dug a little deeper, what is now considered David's palace and currently being excavated is the source of much controversy. And the recreations and illustrations we are using are mostly based in assumption (kinda like parts of this study ).

Try as I might, I cannot agree that the disciples were not indoors on the morning of Shavuot. I cannot see them in any courtyard as scripture indicated that they were enclosed in a building and sitting. Nor can I get past the presumption that they were keeping a very low profile after the arrest and execution of their Rabbi, even after He appeared to them repeatedly. But I also realize that there is a lot of room for interpretation, if for no other reason than two millennia of translations and scribal copy discrepancies.

GREAT FIND!:


There has been some speculation concerning whether Y'shua was also descendant of Aaron and perhaps even Zadok as well as King David. That would put an number of things in a different light.

Thanks!
 
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Yahudim

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Wishing You All Shabbat Shalom,

I am going to have to take a break from this for a time. My brother, the eldest, is going in for a third round of heart surgery early today. Plus there are a number of other things I must accomplish before Shabbat starts. Add to that my wife's little sister has been extremely ill for some time now and we will be taking care of her for a couple of days while her husband attends to some business out of town. But I'll pop in from time to time and be back before you know it.

If you feel so led, please expound on what has been posted so far. You know that I am looking for more similarities between the Temple service and the Revelation. I would also love some help defining from scripture, some of the symbolic representation used in these verses that we have already covered up to chapter 5. A study on the seven congregations would be good, especially as they might compare to the Menorah and the Pleiades. I know that the names of the stars in the Pleiades have meanings. Knowing that might be telling. Anyway, I think you get the drift.

Thanks you for you participation.
Be Blessed in Him,
 
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visionary

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That's really cool Vis!

It brings back to mind Abraham and the binding of Isaac.
'The L-RD HIMSELF will provide the Lamb'

I did a little research and found in the Testament of Simeon is found
Ahhh .. so cool... I am beginning to think that these evidences we are finding are for those who are breaking the mold, breaking the man made barrier and trusting God... and what great finds come from it.
 
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visionary

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May the Lord place His mighty hand on your family and on you in your ministry of prayer for them before them and on them.
 
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yedida

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Ahhh .. so cool... I am beginning to think that these evidences we are finding are for those who are breaking the mold, breaking the man made barrier and trusting God... and what great finds come from it.

I know!! Talk about the proverbial, "drop in your lap" idiom we use! It would definitely call for a greater look into this book that "somebody" decided was irrelevant, don't you think?
 
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yedida

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Wasn't that a gem in the ground that was dug up by our beloved sister!!!
I've not been participating verbally in this study but that doesn't mean I'm not "hooked" and waiting anxiously (a good anxious for a change) for the responses and follow-ups. I just have not studied Rev. since coming into the Messianic faith to a point that I have well-grounded ideas (except for a few).
These "few" ideas I've brought out in other discussions and feel they are viable ideas for discussion, but not yet.
Perhaps at the end of your study, Phillip, you'll open up a Q & A that will allow for any questions that Rev. by itself brings up. If so, I'll participate greatly cos, boy!, do I have questions.

As for the extra-biblical resources and speculation, I praise God that finally a generation has begun to listen to the Spirit and have enough grounding in their faith to realize that just because the Apostolic Writings appear to have inconsistencies, we want answers! And we have realized that our faith in Yeshua is grounded in the grace and faith that was granted to us by Hashem proper and not on what only was said in writings that may or may not be as accurate as they were in their original forms. This is the generation that is going to bring it all in. I really believe this. Will I personally be here to see it? I don't know. If I were healthy I'd unreservedly say, "Oh Yes!" But there are many here, all my dear sweet friends, will see it and have the joy of seeing it to the very end. What an astounding thought!!
I'm just waking up and on pain meds which make me talk and talk (at least, lately I've had something worth saying!!) but I said all of the above to explain my odd silence. When I'm learning, I don't dredge up all the old junk, I just stay silent as I absorb it all. I'll get noisy when the time is right.

I'll be praying for you, my dear friend and brother. May Adonai's hand be on you and yours till we hear from you again. Be blessed.
 
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