Revelation 12 walk through

[Douggg]

Is America a Kingdom? Is Trump a King?
No; and the Bible never says that the Israelites of God will have any other King than Jesus.

But they will elect a leader - a President, as Prophesied, over the new nation of Beulah, in all of the Holy Land.
When Jesus Returns, He will become King over all the world.

keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Soon, the Gog/Magog event will take place, as Iran, and its affiliates of Hamas and Hezbollah, are already attacking Israel.

Not a 15 or 20 years down the road attack on a replacement nation (to the current nation of Israel) of Christians that you refer to as Beulah.

 

[keras]

keras, Israel was reunified in May 14, 1948, as a nation born in a single day, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8.

Soon, the Gog/Magog event will take place, as Iran, and its affiliates of Hamas and Hezbollah, are already attacking Israel.

Not a 15 or 20 years down the road attack on a replacement nation (to the current nation of Israel) of Christians that you refer to as Beulah.

Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?
Jeremiah 30:21 and Hosea 1:11, both plainly state that the Lords peoples will choose for themselves; a Leader. Like Moses or Gideon were.
This must happen before Jesus Returns and after the Christian peoples have become one nation.

Judah and the ten Northern tribes of Israel, remain separate today. There is plenty of proof that this is the truth and even the Jews agree.

Soon the Day of the Lords fiery wrath will take place. It will set the scene for the gathering of the Lords peoples into all of the Holy Land.
Ezekiel 36:1-38
This is what the Lord says about the Land of Israel: The enemies have gloated over you and you were trampled down when you were occupied by other nations. I will speak to the Land, now plundered and despised by the surrounding nations.
In My burning zeal, I have spoken out against the rest of the nations, especially Edom, for with glee and malice they seized My Land as spoil. Therefore, because Israel has suffered the scorn of the nations, I swear that those nations will in turn suffer scorn.

But you, Land of Israel, bring forth your branches and yield your fruit for My people, [all true Christian believers], for their homecoming is near. See how I will look on you with favour, you will be fruitful. I shall settle on you many people - the whole 12 tribes of Israel, [plus those grafted in] the towns inhabited and the Land prosperous. My people, will live there again, never again to leave. No longer will they suffer the scorn of foreigners.

When ancient Israel was living in the Land, they defiled it by their idolatry. I sentenced them to exile around the world. But I have concern for My Holy Name, so you Israelites, it is not for your sake that I am acting – I shall show My Holiness through you and all the nations will know that I am the Lord.

I shall take you out of the nations, gather you from every land and bring you back to your homeland. I will purify you of everything that defiles you. You will have a new heart and I will put My spirit within you and you will desire to only follow My Laws.

Then you will live in the Land that I had given to your forefathers. You will be My people and I will be your God. Having saved you from all that defiles you, I shall command the Land to be plentiful, trees will bear abundant fruit and the soil will produce heavy crops. Never again will you suffer famine. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31
You will recall your wicked conduct and evil deeds and will hate yourself for them. Feel the shame and disgrace of your old ways, people of Israel.

The Lord says: when I have cleansed you of all your wrongdoings, you will settle in the Land and the ruined places will be rebuilt. The Land will be ploughed and sown, no longer a devastation. and rain will come in due season.
After the Sixth Seal disaster has cleared and cleansed the entire Holy Land.

The nations still left around you will know that it is I, the Lord who has done this.

The Lord says; once again, I will let the Israelites pray to Me for help. They will become many, as flocks of sheep in the Land. As Jerusalem has flocks of sheep at festival time, so will the towns of Israel be filled with flocks of people.
Then: they will know that I am their God. Ref: REB some verses condensed.

The prophet Ezekiel, who was commissioned to prophesy specifically to the House of Israel: Ezekiel 2:3, wrote chapter 36, giving the story of how God will, in His burning zeal, clear the evil neighbours, - Jeremiah 12:14, out of all of the Holy Land.

Then, His people, the Christian Israelites, Jews and from every nation and language, will gather and settle in the Land. They will receive God’s Spirit and will live in the Land with great prosperity. This is in order for them to be a light to the nations and to prepare for the Return of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Why don't you address the Prophesies I present?

Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.

 

[keras]

Because your interpretations are not correct as far as the current nation of Israel being replaced.

Because; what the Prophets actually say, does not conform to your beliefs.

Verses like Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove the existence of a Christian nation in the Holy Land during the end times.
Many Prophesies tell of the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Matthew 8:12

Your belief of an 'anytime rapture', is totally unsupported. The Bible tells us many times, how we must keep strong in our faith, trusting the Lord until the end. The position of the Christian peoples during the final 3 1/2 years, is told to us in Revelation 12. Half of them will be taken to a place of safety on earth. The other half, who failed in their faith; must remain,- under Satanic control.
Any beliefs contrary to this, is wrong and cannot happen.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sure it did. Sometimes Paul uses literary conventions that don't always seem to make sense at face value. As Peter said, "Sometimes Paul says difficult to understand things that some get confused about." (paraphrased)

In this case, Paul most obviously is not saying that Israel is not Israel. That should be a clue that Paul is using some kind of literary convention. It wouldn't make sense unless you're following his train of thought. Or, perhaps you have to understand his Hebrew background.

A major factor in Hebrew life is the threat that if they refuse to live by the Law of Moses, they will be "cut off" from the people. It would mean that they stopped being assembled with "Israel." They should have to join another culture, or even be killed.

It is like telling a wayward son, "You are no longer my child. I disown you!" The child does not stop being a son, but he is being treated *as if* he is no longer a son.

Paul is therefore not denying that wayward Israel is "Israel." Rather, he is saying that for the sake of identifying Israel's unworthiness he is identifying them as "Untrue Israel" or "Wayward Israel."

Paul uses the example of Ishmael being rejected from being Israel as an example of how one unworthy of the name "Israel" might be looked as if he is another nation entirely--perhaps even a pagan nation? It isn't as if Paul is saying that any Jew is not "Israel" but that in acting like a pagan nation it appears as if they are not Israel any longer, lacking the faith they were called to display.

You misunderstand Paul, in my view. He is saying that *for purposes of establishing Faith* physical characteristics of Israel is not the exclusive basis for determining that. Faith is displayed on top of physical characteristics--physical characteristics are not being rejected, but only in terms of the exclusive means of establishing faith in Israel.

You have changed the equation. You are now saying the litmus test is for "God's children." That was not the litmus test being discussed. It involves "True Israel," which is concerned only with faith in Natural Israel.

It is not a matter of identifying who is Israel, but rather, who is "True or Faithful Israel." A "true Jew" must be both a Natural Jew (or a converted Jew) and be a Jew who has genuine faith. Being a Natural Jew is insufficient to establish his faithfulness.

A Jew who fails to display genuine faith does not cease being a Jew. He just ceases being a "true" or "faithful" Jew! This is not a matter of defining who a "Jew" is. Rather, it is God's way of showing who among the Jews are being rejected for final placement in that assembly.

I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.

Similarly, you reference a "true Jew" in contrast to "a natural Jew". Is that not two different types of Jews? Yet, despite this, you probably still claim there is only one type of Jew just like you claim there are not two Israels, but only one? Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. So be it.

 

[RandyPNW]

I've been away from this forum for awhile, but just came back and just now saw this post. So, you acknowledge here that there is what you called "True or Faithful Israel" and you contrasted that with "Natural Israel". And, yet, you have a problem with me saying there are two Israels. Even though you do the same. I don't get it.

Similarly, you reference a "true Jew" in contrast to "a natural Jew". Is that not two different types of Jews? Yet, despite this, you probably still claim there is only one type of Jew just like you claim there are not two Israels, but only one? Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you believe. So be it.

You can't make sense of it because you assume I referred to "two Israels," when I didn't. It is "True Israel" within "Israel" proper. It is faithful Jews among many Jews, some of who remain and some of who leave forever. But all who remain, faithful or not, remain "Jews."

If I have a church full of people, and all of them are Christians I would say that they are all "Christians." But inasmuch as only *some* of them are "faithful" I can say that only some of them are "faithful Christians." The unfaithful Christians may decide to leave Christianity entirely, or they may eventually repent. But those who do not leave entirely do not stop being called "Christians."

Those who are unfaithful and do not leave Christianity entirely do not become "nonChristians." Rather, only *some* of them fall away completely, and these would no longer be Christians.

In the case of Israel we would call them all "Israel" and only *some* of them "Faithful Israel." In this case we know that God got so incensed with Unfaithful Israel that he disowned them and called them "Not My People."

I think that throws you off and makes you think that "Not My People" have stopped being "Israel." But this is just sort of a way of threatening those who are unfaithful with being cut off permanently. In reality, "Unfaithful Israel" was owned again to be called "Israel, My People." This is in Hosea.

They never stopped being "Israel." But if they completely turn away from their God forever, they stop living in Israel as well and are forced to join another nation. They are apostates who then become a different nation. They are no longer part of Israel!

You don't have to agree. But I hope this helps you to understand my position?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You can't make sense of it because you assume I referred to "two Israels," when I didn't.

That's how it comes across.

It is "True Israel" within "Israel" proper.

That comes across as two different Israels. One that you call "Israel proper". The basis of being part of that Israel is only on one's DNA. And the other you call "True Israel" which consists only of "faithful Jews". You can say it's one Israel within another or a subset, but you are still coming across as if you are referring to two different Israels. One that's based on nationality and faith and one that's based on nationality only.

It is faithful Jews among many Jews, some of who remain and some of who leave forever. But all who remain, faithful or not, remain "Jews."

If I have a church full of people, and all of them are Christians I would say that they are all "Christians." But inasmuch as only *some* of them are "faithful" I can say that only some of them are "faithful Christians."

So, in the case of the Jews, why not just call them either faithful or unfaithful instead of referring to "Natural Israel" and "True (or Faithful) Israel"?

The unfaithful Christians may decide to leave Christianity entirely, or they may eventually repent. But those who do not leave entirely do not stop being called "Christians."

Those who are unfaithful and do not leave Christianity entirely do not become "nonChristians." Rather, only *some* of them fall away completely, and these would no longer be Christians.

In the case of Israel we would call them all "Israel" and only *some* of them "Faithful Israel."

Why talk of them as a separate entity that you call "Faithful Israel" when you only believe in one Israel and not two Israels? Are you not interested in being clear? Why not just refer to faithful Israelites and unfaithful Israelites from (what you believe to be) the one Israel?

In this case we know that God got so incensed with Unfaithful Israel that he disowned them and called them "Not My People."

I think that throws you off and makes you think that "Not My People" have stopped being "Israel." But this is just sort of a way of threatening those who are unfaithful with being cut off permanently. In reality, "Unfaithful Israel" was owned again to be called "Israel, My People." This is in Hosea.

God's people are only those who have faith. Don't make something simple into something complicated. This doesn't mean that those who do not have faith right now can never come to have faith and become part of God's people, of course. But, this is very simple. God's people are those who have faith. If you don't have faith, you're not a child of God.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

They never stopped being "Israel." But if they completely turn away from their God forever, they stop living in Israel as well and are forced to join another nation. They are apostates who then become a different nation. They are no longer part of Israel!

You don't have to agree. But I hope this helps you to understand my position?

Sorry, no, I don't understand your position. I think you make things far more complicated than they are.

 

[RandyPNW]

That's how it comes across.

Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see the word "two Israels."

That comes across as two different Israels. One that you call "Israel proper". The basis of being part of that Israel is only on one's DNA. And the other you call "True Israel" which consists only of "faithful Jews". You can say it's one Israel within another or a subset, but you are still coming across as if you are referring to two different Israels. One that's based on nationality and faith and one that's based on nationality only.

Not at all. There is one group of Christians in our church. Some are faithful, and some are not. This does not make our church "two churches."

Israel is one nation. Some are faithful, and some are not. The fact that only some are faithful does not make them "two Israels" or "two nations." You are arguing something that does not follow or is irrational, to fit your theology.

So, in the case of the Jews, why not just call them either faithful or unfaithful instead of referring to "Natural Israel" and "True (or Faithful) Israel"?

I've had to explain to you that the fact that there is a "true Israel" does not mean there is a "2nd Israel."

Why talk of them as a separate entity that you call "Faithful Israel" when you only believe in one Israel and not two Israels?

I'm not talking about them as a "separate entity." Rather, I'm speaking of a single entity with one group being faithful and one group being unfaithful. The fact I group them as such is not creating separate "entities."

God's people are only those who have faith.

That isn't true. God called Israel to have faith even before they fully had it--some didn't get it at all. Those who proved to be faithless were cut off.

But the fact they were "Israel" before they were cut off indicates that they were not named Israel strictly because they had faith initially. The entire *nation* was called Israel, and the entire nation was called to have faith.

They were Israel before they had yet proved whether they would be faithful or not. Their initial faithfulness was simply the choice to leave Egypt together to find God's Law on the mountain.

Many Jews today are in the same position of wanting to know what God wants of their nation. They have chosen to gather together with other Jews, viewing their elect culture to be worth gathering with.

They should be properly called "Israel," regardless of whether they are Christians. That is the normal definition of "Israel."

Don't make something simple into something complicated. This doesn't mean that those who do not have faith right now can never come to have faith and become part of God's people, of course. But, this is very simple. God's people are those who have faith. If you don't have faith, you're not a child of God.

Don't agree. Israel is "Israel" before they have Christian faith. That has always been true.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Being "children" is different from being "Israel."

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Nowhere in the Scriptures do we see the word "two Israels."

Do we see the words "natural Israel" or "true Israel"? No. Yet, you used those words to explain your understanding of Romans 9:6-8. So, your comment here is completely pointless. It's silly to think that unless something is explicitly stated in scripture, it can't be true. All of us believe some things that are implied in scripture rather than being explicitly spelled out, including you.

Not at all. There is one group of Christians in our church. Some are faithful, and some are not. This does not make our church "two churches."

Do you refer to them as the true or faithful church and the untrue or unfaithful church? I doubt it. So, why do you refer to "natural Israel" and "true Israel" when you don't believe in two Israels?

Israel is one nation. Some are faithful, and some are not. The fact that only some are faithful does not make them "two Israels" or "two nations." You are arguing something that does not follow or is irrational, to fit your theology.

So, why do you refer to "true Israel" and "natural Israel" separately then? Why can't you see how that comes across?

I've had to explain to you that the fact that there is a "true Israel" does not mean there is a "2nd Israel."

I'm not talking about them as a "separate entity." Rather, I'm speaking of a single entity with one group being faithful and one group being unfaithful. The fact I group them as such is not creating separate "entities."

It would be more clear if you referred to the faithful among Israel and the unfaithful among Israel or something like that instead of referring to "true Israel" (or "faithful Israel") and "natural Israel". That comes across as two different Israels whether you intend that or not.

That isn't true. God called Israel to have faith even before they fully had it--some didn't get it at all. Those who proved to be faithless were cut off.

But the fact they were "Israel" before they were cut off indicates that they were not named Israel strictly because they had faith initially. The entire *nation* was called Israel, and the entire nation was called to have faith.

Come on, Randy. I'm talking about how things are NOW and in the New Testament era. I understand things were different 2,000+ years ago. But, Paul plainly said that those who have faith are God's children (Galatians 3:26). It's not about nationality, it's about whether someone has a personal relationship with Jesus/God or not that determines if someone is a child of God.

They were Israel before they had yet proved whether they would be faithful or not. Their initial faithfulness was simply the choice to leave Egypt together to find God's Law on the mountain.

Many Jews today are in the same position of wanting to know what God wants of their nation. They have chosen to gather together with other Jews, viewing their elect culture to be worth gathering with.

They should be properly called "Israel," regardless of whether they are Christians. That is the normal definition of "Israel."

Don't agree. Israel is "Israel" before they have Christian faith. That has always been true.

Being "children" is different from being "Israel."

In Romans 9:6 Paul said they are not all Israel who physically descend from Israel and he expanded on that in verse 7 by saying "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children". So, he clearly was referring to Israel in the sense of it not being based on physically descending from the nation of Israel or physically descending from Abraham. Then, he explained what he meant in different words in verse 8 by saying "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.". So, you saying "being "children" is different from being "Israel"" requires you to completely ignore what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8. He associated the Israel from which not all who are physically descended from Israel or from Abraham are part with being the children of God and the children of the promise with that making them counted for the seed of Abraham. So, being children is NOT different from being Israel (Spiritual or True Israel), according to Paul.

 

[keras]

What some people need here; is a reality check!

We have a nation in the holy Land now, who call themselves Jewish and their nation Israel. That for a start is wrong, their nation is Judah, as David ben Gurion originally intended to call it, but changed at the last moment. The House of Judah separated from the House of Israel soon after Solomon’s death.

This wrongful naming was undoubtedly a Satanically inspired deception, that has been very successful in fooling the world into thinking they are all of ancient Israel, today.
Those citizens of the State of Israel have no proof of their ancestry; all the genealogy records were burned in 70 AD. Jesus said there are some Jews who say they are Jews, but are not.... Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. When the historical record of their descent is scrutinized, it can be seen that very few of those who purport to be Jewish today are really descended from Judah.

So the business of trying to extol a whole group of mixed race; modern people, as special to God, is wrong. Especially as they don't acknowledge or rely on God as their Protector, the IDF and their nukes are their Sampson Option. Many prophesies tell us that God intends to Judge and punish them; to smash them like clay pots, Jeremiah 19:1-15, to burn the righteous and wicked alike; Ezekiel 21:1-7 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27.

 

[RandyPNW]

Do we see the words "natural Israel" or "true Israel"? No. Yet, you used those words to explain your understanding of Romans 9:6-8. So, your comment here is completely pointless. It's silly to think that unless something is explicitly stated in scripture, it can't be true. All of us believe some things that are implied in scripture rather than being explicitly spelled out, including you.

That doesn't follow. I'm not just asking for the exact words "two Isaels," but even for a synonym representing the exact same idea. It could be "Israel has a double meaning," etc. Just saying that part of Israel is "true to the faith" does not mean a subgroup of Israel repesents a "2nd Israel" and as such is mentioned in the Bible.

Does "natural Israel" or "true Israel" exist as such in the Bible? Why would "natural Israel" be mentioned in the Bible if that is the normal definition of "Israel?" Why would it have to be explained?

We already know that part of Israel is spiritual and part is carnal. But again, these are subgroups within a single, native Israel, which has been the definition of "Israel" from the time God called Jacob "Israel."

"True Israel" is precisely there, in principle, and what I've been talking about. "True" is a synonym for "faithful." The faithful among the people of Israel are the Christians who are faithful to Christ. This is the true, ideal Israel.

Rom 2.28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Let me emphasize that Paul is speaking here of *Jewish People,* and not non-Jews. Those who are "circumcised" are not "faithful" on that basis alone, which is their calling, but more, on their faithfulness to the word of God. When the full nation subscribes to the Law of God and to Jesus, then they will represent the ideal "Israel" Paul describes here....

Gal 6.15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

 

[RandyPNW]

In Romans 9:6... So, you saying "being "children" is different from being "Israel"" requires you to completely ignore what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8. He associated the Israel from which not all who are physically descended from Israel or from Abraham are part with being the children of God and the children of the promise with that making them counted for the seed of Abraham. So, being children is NOT different from being Israel (Spiritual or True Israel), according to Paul.

Israel began with Jacob, and the name extends to *all* of his children. No, they are not all, in the end, "children of God." But they are called and given the opportunity to be that.

I may enlist in the military, and put on the uniform, being fully accepted and contracted for that service. But if I fail to follow orders, or even go over to the enemy, I do not stop being a soldier. I stop being a good soldier, and will be court martialed and sent out of the military so that I am no longer a soldier.

Israel was called to be a nation of God. Many have failed in that calling, but are still called "Israel." And that's because God is still allowing them and their descendants time to get it right, while the rest of the world is being introduced to their Messiah and Gospel.

Those who fail will ultimately be cut off from being part of "Israel." But for the present, all who God calls among the Jews are part of "Israel" and should be referred to as such.

 

[Douggg]

We have a nation in the holy Land now, who call themselves Jewish and their nation Israel.

A nation born in a single day fulfilling Isaiah 66:8. And the reunification of the northern nation and southern nation back into one nation fulfilling Ezekiel 37. Jesus soon to return to be the King of Israel embraced by the Jews.

 

[keras]

A nation born in a single day fulfilling Isaiah 66:8. And the reunification of the northern nation and southern nation back into one nation fulfilling Ezekiel 37. Jesus soon to return to be the King of Israel embraced by the Jews.

All wrong:
1/ The Jewish nation of Israel, took 50 years from conception to birth.
2/ Ezekiel 37:15-28 very plainly remains unfulfilled.
3/ You fail to read and comprehend the Prophesies about the Jews, the House of Judah;

Many prophesies tell us that God intends to Judge and punish them; to smash them like clay pots, Jeremiah 19:1-15, to burn the righteous and wicked alike; Ezekiel 21:1-7 and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27.

Just a few will survive, hiding underground; Isaiah 29:1-4, Isaiah 6:11-13
Randy PNW; take note of what the Bible actually says about the faithless Jews.