Revelation 12 walk through

keras said:

Nowhere does the Bible say Jewish Israel will ever repent or become Christian. Only a remnant of the Jews, who are Christian now; will survive the punishment sent by the Lord. Over 20 Prophesies attest to this sad outcome.
Those few will be so embarrassed and ashamed by their failings, they won't say much; Ezekiel 16:63

It is we Christians, the Spiritual Israelites of God, who display faith and trust in Jesus.

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Nowhere are we, remnants of many nations, called "Spiritual Israelites." And, of course, I take issue with your denial that "Jewish Israel" will ever repent or become Christian. Clearly, Jesus' Disciples asked him, point blank, when Israel would be recovered.

Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

And why did Jesus' Disciples ask him that, except that Jesus had already taught, particularly in his Olivet Discourse, that Israel would be abandoned until his Return?

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So, it is when the times of the Gentiles come to an end that "this people," that is, "Jewish Israel," will be restored.

Acts 3.17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

But you will not likely receive this message because your heart has been hardened by your own chosen theology. Very well.

RandyPNW said:

And, of course, I take issue with your denial that "Jewish Israel" will ever repent or become Christian. Clearly, Jesus' Disciples asked him, point blank, when Israel would be recovered.

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The reason I said Jewish Israel, is because the Jews represent only 2 of the 12 tribes, Jesus plainly stated who He came to save; the lost House of Israel and He also stated that apostate Jews would be thrown out of the Kingdom, which was taken from Judah and given to a People who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 8:12 & 21:43

RandyPNW said:

Luke 21.23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

So, it is when the times of the Gentiles come to an end that "this people," that is, "Jewish Israel," will be restored.

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Luke 21:23-24, is plainly fulfilled Prophecy. The time of the gentiles in Jerusalem ended in 1948, or more likely in 1967. The Jews were restored, but in apostasy and now they face punishment for the third time, Ezekiel 21:14

RandyPNW said:

But you will not likely receive this message because your heart has been hardened by your own chosen theology.

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I reject the 'message' of a general Jewish redemption, as Prophecy says that only a remnant of Judah will be saved.
Note; in Matthew 8:11 .....many will come from the East and the West, to sit with the Patriarchs ......in the Kingdom of God. Jesus can only be referring to the true Israelites of God, none other than the Christian peoples. Confirmed by Isaiah 66:18b, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

keras said:

The reason I said Jewish Israel, is because the Jews represent only 2 of the 12 tribes, Jesus plainly stated who He came to save; the lost House of Israel and He also stated that apostate Jews would be thrown out of the Kingdom, which was taken from Judah and given to a People who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 8:12 & 21:43

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I don't know if you'll recall our discussion on this?--we can't possibly remember every discussion we' ve had! I believe the House of Israel, ie the 10 Tribes, are indeed "Lost!" They turned away from their God in Jerusalem to worship false gods in Dan and in Samaria. God sent them away into Assyria, from which they never returned.

But lest God's promise to the 10 Tribes fail, He evidently prompted groups from each of these 10 Tribes to migrate down into Judah, so that they could properly worship their God in Jerusalem. So, the Jewish People comprise all 12 Tribes.

keras said:

Luke 21:23-24, is plainly fulfilled Prophecy. The time of the gentiles in Jerusalem ended in 1948, or more likely in 1967. The Jews were restored, but in apostasy and now they face punishment for the third time, Ezekiel 21:14

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I think you're misreading the allusion to the fact that after the Jewish Diaspora, Israel will be restored. Israel's punishment is indicated to *end* when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

keras said:

I reject the 'message' of a general Jewish redemption, as Prophecy says that only a remnant of Judah will be saved.

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The escape of a relative few Jews during times of judgment has been true at various points throughout history. It did not mean the nation would not be recovered as a full nation.

For example, after the Babylonian Captivity relative few Jews returned to restore Jerusalem. But ultimately, a full nation developed once again. And that was what was promised--a full national restoration--not just the restoration of a half-pint society.

keras said:

Note; in Matthew 8:11 .....many will come from the East and the West, to sit with the Patriarchs ......in the Kingdom of God. Jesus can only be referring to the true Israelites of God, none other than the Christian peoples. Confirmed by Isaiah 66:18b, 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

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The political deliverance of national Israel at the end of the age is said, prophetically, to ultimately include a full spiritual restoration, as well. The unbelieving Jewish people will indeed become a believing Jewish people, along with many other believing nations.

Douggg said:

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

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Correct, but after this you go off the rails on "TIMING TELLS" brother.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.

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Well, not if you mean the end of the 1260 days, you probably means it jumps from Jesus ascending to the middle of the 70th week, thus it is called the 1260 Middle of the Week Event. At the 1260 Israel WILL NOT STILL BE IN "UNBELIF" my friend, they repent 75 days before this at the 1335, which is when the Two-Wit. show up, as Mal. 4:5 says BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Yes, Israel are indeed brought back into the land in unbelief, in 1948, but after the 70th week starts, and at the 1335, they repent, just before the Middle of the Week or 1260 Anti-Christ Conquers them.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

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Yes but nit after the 1260 days, but rather at the start of the 1260 days. Satan is cast into Hellfire by Jesus in Rev. 20 right? So, how can he "chase Israel" for 1260 days unless he is cast down in the middle of the 70th week? Not at the very end.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

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They do so just before the 1260 begins, at the 1335, that is why they know to Flee Judea 30 days before the Middle of the Week at the 1290 AoD. Satan will have been lying unto them about Jesus for 2000 plus years.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

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Again, before Satan is cast down, Israel repents.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

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Satan is angry he has been cast down, but he is cast down before the all three woes hit, and before the Asteroid or First Four Trumps hit in the Middle of the Week, or at least at the same time.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

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He tries to kill everyone he can get at, period.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

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They flee at the 1290 and have 30 days to get to the Petra/Bozrah mountains.

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

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Yes God protects Israel (The Woman)

Douggg said:

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

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Yes, he will kill the 2/3, they WIL DIE, Zech. 13:8-9 says so. The ones who get persecuted however in the above verse is the Non Raptured (5 Virgins with no oil) Church/Body of Gentile Believers w repent during the 70th week, thus they are called The Remnant (Church)

RandyPNW said:

the Jewish People comprise all 12 Tribes.

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This idea is simply impossible.
Jewish Israel has never received the Blessings of God, as Prophesied by Jacob and Moses. They are not 'as many as the sands of the sea', and idea of a Jewish redemption is not found in scripture. Their virtual destruction is.

RandyPNW said:

I don't know if you'll recall our discussion on this

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We have indeed discussed this issue many times. I reply - not so much to change your mind, as to present the truth to others here.
Those who have wrong beliefs, and we all have them; more or less, will only understand God plans after they occur. John 14:29 - Jesus says that we have been told and when things happen we will know it is what the Lord is doing and we must stay strong in our faith.

RandyPNW said:

I don't know if you'll recall our discussion on this?--we can't possibly remember every discussion we' ve had! I believe the House of Israel, ie the 10 Tribes, are indeed "Lost!" They turned away from their God in Jerusalem to worship false gods in Dan and in Samaria. God sent them away into Assyria, from which they never returned.

But lest God's promise to the 10 Tribes fail, He evidently prompted groups from each of these 10 Tribes to migrate down into Judah, so that they could properly worship their God in Jerusalem. So, the Jewish People comprise all 12 Tribes.

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If he thinks a certain way he has no ability to hear other proofs from my dealings with him over the years

The facts are seen below, all one has to do is use Google or google AI.


Yes, Jerusalem's walls were significantly expanded during the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah, in part due to a large influx of refugees from the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE created a refugee crisis, as displaced Israelites fled south to the relative safety of Judah and its capital, Jerusalem.
This population boom required King Hezekiah to construct a massive new wall to protect the newly expanded city.
Evidence for Hezekiah's wall expansion

• Archaeological evidence: Excavations in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter uncovered a 22-foot wide section of what archaeologists call the "Broad Wall". Discovered by Nahman Avigad in the 1970s, this wall was dated to the reign of Hezekiah and enclosed a new western neighborhood of the city. Excavators found that the wall was built so rapidly that it cut through existing houses, using materials from the demolished homes for its construction.
• Biblical evidence:
  • The Book of 2 Chronicles records Hezekiah's fortification efforts, stating, "He set to work resolutely and built up all the wall that was broken down and raised towers upon it, and outside it he built another wall" (2 Chronicles 32:5).
  • The Book of Isaiah mentions Hezekiah preparing the city for a siege by the Assyrians, noting that the houses were torn down to repair the city wall (Isaiah 22:9–11).
• Historical context: The Assyrian Empire was notorious for its brutal conquest and deportation of conquered peoples. When Assyria destroyed the northern capital of Samaria, thousands of Israelite refugees fled to Jerusalem, dramatically increasing its population. Hezekiah was already preparing for an inevitable Assyrian attack and used the city's western expansion to fortify its borders and build the new wall to protect his new citizens.

The City was expanded to receive the Northern Kingdom Refugees, but for some reason these people do not make up the other 10 tribes seed, even though of course they do.

Fisherking said:

If he thinks a certain way he has no ability to hear other proofs from my dealings with him over the years

The facts are seen below, all one has to do is use Google or google AI.


Yes, Jerusalem's walls were significantly expanded during the reign of King Hezekiah of Judah, in part due to a large influx of refugees from the Northern Kingdom of Israel. The Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE created a refugee crisis, as displaced Israelites fled south to the relative safety of Judah and its capital, Jerusalem.
This population boom required King Hezekiah to construct a massive new wall to protect the newly expanded city.
Evidence for Hezekiah's wall expansion

• Archaeological evidence: Excavations in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter uncovered a 22-foot wide section of what archaeologists call the "Broad Wall". Discovered by Nahman Avigad in the 1970s, this wall was dated to the reign of Hezekiah and enclosed a new western neighborhood of the city. Excavators found that the wall was built so rapidly that it cut through existing houses, using materials from the demolished homes for its construction.
• Biblical evidence:
  • The Book of 2 Chronicles records Hezekiah's fortification efforts, stating, "He set to work resolutely and built up all the wall that was broken down and raised towers upon it, and outside it he built another wall" (2 Chronicles 32:5).
  • The Book of Isaiah mentions Hezekiah preparing the city for a siege by the Assyrians, noting that the houses were torn down to repair the city wall (Isaiah 22:9–11).
• Historical context: The Assyrian Empire was notorious for its brutal conquest and deportation of conquered peoples. When Assyria destroyed the northern capital of Samaria, thousands of Israelite refugees fled to Jerusalem, dramatically increasing its population. Hezekiah was already preparing for an inevitable Assyrian attack and used the city's western expansion to fortify its borders and build the new wall to protect his new citizens.

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The City was expanded to receive the Northern Kingdom Refugees, but for some reason these people do not make up the other 10 tribes seed, even though of course they do.

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Yes, the Jewish People consist of all 12 Tribal descendants, fulfilling God's promise to all 12 Tribes of Israel. After all, God never promised that He would retain 12 separate Tribal Divisions.

Some visions, such as Ezekiel's Vision, and John's Vision of the 144,000, appear to suggest this. But they are only visions confirming that all 12 Tribes would be included in Israel's ultimate national salvation.

The 12 Tribes were to become a single Nation, and not remain 12 Tribes or even 2 separate Nations. The fulfillment and inclusion of all 12 Tribes is to be realized in a single People and in a single Nation.

RandyPNW said:

the Jewish People consist of all 12 Tribal descendants,

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The rejoining of Judah and Israel is clearly Prophesied in Ezekiel 37:15-28
People who believe all this happened soon after they separated, are confused, deceived and delusional. [condelu]

But the cruncher is how the Jews themselves say they have not yet rejoined with the 10 tribes.
The main reason for forcing the rejoining of Judah and Israel into the past, is to support the rapture to heaven of the Church. Us in heaven, the Jews going thru tribulation. A belief way beyond reality and in complete opposition to what the scriptures actually say will happen in the end times.

RandyPNW said:

The fulfillment and inclusion of all 12 Tribes is to be realized in a single People and in a single Nation.

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Right, and when they do, along with the Christian peoples from every race, tribe, nation and language, they will occupy all of the Holy Land.
In the very same place as where the ancient Israelites were exiled from. Romans 9:26, Hosea 1:10-11
See you there!

Douggg said:

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
......

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It's hard to imagine how one could misread the Apostle John, of all people , believing he could not know that "the woman" here is first of all Mary, the human mother of Jesus, God incarnate. John was there under the Cross; he heard the Lord say to him explicitly of Mary:

Jn 19:26 When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
Jn 19:27 Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own [home] (lit: "into his own [self, being]).

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This new spiritual supernatural Reality - the motherhood of Mary in the Body of Christ - was and is to remain in the world in His Faithful and Beloved Ones. This took root as authentic Marian Devotion held by the Faithful Ones in Christ.

This could be helpful: Foundations of Marian Devotion in the Early Church.

Editing out - or "translating out" - the role of Mary in the New Creation (which is continuing today!) is to lose much of the fulness of the Gospel.

keras said:

This idea is simply impossible.
Jewish Israel has never received the Blessings of God, as Prophesied by Jacob and Moses. They are not 'as many as the sands of the sea', and idea of a Jewish redemption is not found in scripture. Their virtual destruction is.

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Actually, the Scriptures indicate that this has already been fulfilled, to some extent, in the past. It was a common representation of a large number...

2 Sam 17.11 “So I advise you: Let all Israel, from Dan to Beersheba—as numerous as the sand on the seashore—be gathered to you, with you yourself leading them into battle.

Moses actually predicted that *both* blessings and curses would come upon Israel...

Deut 30.When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you...

You seem to be basing your positions on false information?

keras said:

We have indeed discussed this issue many times. I reply - not so much to change your mind, as to present the truth to others here.

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Legitimate.

keras said:

Those who have wrong beliefs, and we all have them; more or less, will only understand God plans after they occur. John 14:29 - Jesus says that we have been told and when things happen we will know it is what the Lord is doing and we must stay strong in our faith.

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Sometimes getting our "truths" right can be too late. We need to adjust our opinions to biblical facts now.

keras said:

The rejoining of Judah and Israel is clearly Prophesied in Ezekiel 37:15-28
People who believe all this happened soon after they separated, are confused, deceived and delusional. [condelu]

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It is not delusional to recognize that the division of Israel into northern and southern kingdoms ended back with the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. The fulfillment of some elements of Eze 37 may refer to Israel, as a single nation, in the last days. But at the time this was written, it was essential that it be established that God's purpose was one Jerusalem as a place of worship for all Israel--not two kingdoms with separate places of worship.

keras said:

But the cruncher is how the Jews themselves say they have not yet rejoined with the 10 tribes.

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My understanding is that the 10 tribes are permanently lost. Elements of the 10 tribes remain mixed in the DNA of the Jewish People. The Tribal divisions were preliminary to the development of a single nation, and have lost their significance since ancient times.

keras said:

The main reason for forcing the rejoining of Judah and Israel into the past, is to support the rapture to heaven of the Church.

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Can't see that.

keras said:

Us in heaven, the Jews going thru tribulation. A belief way beyond reality and in complete opposition to what the scriptures actually say will happen in the end times.

Right, and when they do, along with the Christian peoples from every race, tribe, nation and language, they will occupy all of the Holy Land.
In the very same place as where the ancient Israelites were exiled from. Romans 9:26, Hosea 1:10-11
See you there!

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Can't see that. Christian nations are not "Israel." And Dispensationalism isn't the only view of "the Rapture."

RandyPNW said:

It is not delusional to recognize that the division of Israel into northern and southern kingdoms ended back with the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities

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There is no record of the ten Northern tribes rejoining with Judah. But there is a record of how they migrated across Europe and settled there, eventually to inhabit places around the World. As the Bible says: they are as many as the sands of the sea, a plainly stated Prophecy that does not apply to the Jews.
Do you even bother to read Ezekiel 37:15-28? That Prophecy describing the time when Israel and Judah will actually rejoin, has Promises which will take place at that time and obviously remain unfulfilled.

RandyPNW said:

Christian nations are not "Israel.

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The fact is the Jewish State of Israel, is not true Israel. How could it be? They are the complete antithesis of what the Israelites of God should be.

An Israelite of God is an Overcomer for Hm. We see Overcomers in each of the 7 Churches in Revelation and Paul says the Israel of God, are the peoples who follow the Way of Christ. Galatians 6:14-16
One Day to become a nation in all of the Holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5, Zechariah 8:1-23, Hosea 1:10-11, +

RandyPNW said:

And Dispensationalism isn't the only view of "the Rapture."

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A 'rapture to heaven', is a Satanic lie. Such a thing is never prophesied in the Bible, it is an escapists doctrine, believed by condelu people, without the faith and fortitude to stand strong thru all that must happen in the end times.