Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

BABerean2 · Nov 3, 2015

ScottA said:
I rest my case.

Scott,

My wife and I once attended a church body where we loved the people.

One of the reasons we left was because one of the preachers said it is not finished.

I still love the man. However, those who contradict the words of Jesus to defend their doctrine cannot be trusted with God's Word.

I appreciate you speaking the truth in love.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NC Theology David H J Gay Ministry: It is Finished

jerry kelso · Nov 3, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Jerry,

You just plainly stated the truth, in your own words above.

and then you turn around in other places and start hedging on what you said above.

"I am telling the truth.

1. Romans 11:1 says nothing about the Jews given the new covenant first. For the most part they were jews but the nation of Israel had already rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37-39."

If the Apostle Paul was not an Israelite who was a part of the New Covenant, then what was he?

If Romans chapter 11 is not about Israelites remaining in or broken off of the Olive Tree of the New Covenant, then what is it?

God never, ever, said that every Jew would come to faith in Christ. Only a remnant will be saved.
.

jerry kelso · Nov 3, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Jerry,

You just plainly stated the truth, in your own words above.

and then you turn around in other places and start hedging on what you said above.

"I am telling the truth.

1. Romans 11:1 says nothing about the Jews given the new covenant first. For the most part they were jews but the nation of Israel had already rejected Jesus Matthew 23:37-39."

If the Apostle Paul was not an Israelite who was a part of the New Covenant, then what was he?

If Romans chapter 11 is not about Israelites remaining in or broken off of the Olive Tree of the New Covenant, then what is it?

God never, ever, said that every Jew would come to faith in Christ. Only a remnant will be saved.
.

baberean,

I didn't hedge on anything and you are still not understanding.

1. Jesus preached the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God message to the jewish nation under the Mosaic law. Matthew 4:17, 6:33. The KoH was the physical kingdom and the KoG was the spiritual rule in their hearts to gain entrance into the physical kingdom to take their covenant place at the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:2-4. This message was only to the jews for gentiles had no covenant. Matthew 10:6-7. It was not the direct message of the death, burial and resurrection like today because Jesus didn't preach it and never said much about it until after the nation rejected him and the disciples and Peter still didn't get it. John 6 and Matthew 16.

2. The early church was mainly jews for they were left over from Jesus ministry and there were also proselytes from Rome. This shows that a new thing was beginning and that the gentiles being on the exact same playing ground had not come yet because Peter had not got the vision of the clean and unclean. This shows gradual revelation.

3. The Kingdom program ended when Israel rejected Christ. The disciples still had that mentality, especially when Peter saw signs of Joel on the Day of Pentecost but they were not a fulfillment of the covenant because the creation would have blossomed and would have no curse on it etc.

4. The church was established and Jesus said this before he died and this was the program that we are still in now. Just because there were jews in the early church doesn't mean that the Kingdom was supposed to happen then or was in effect. That is why Jesus answered like he did in Acts 1:6-7.

5. Paul didn't have the big picture yet in the beginning and he had to go to Arabia to get the full revelation between law and grace, the church and the kingdom. Paul knew the covenants and that the Abrahamic and the Davidic Covenants were eternal and he was concerned for his fellow brethren and the jew got so bad and wouldn't listen he went to the gentiles. Paul didn't preach the kingdom message and Peter didn't either even though he recognized the signs and his books have that slant towards it and Peter's ministry was mainly to the jews. Paul went to the gentiles.

2. God says the jew would come to faith just like a gentile and this is why there are no jews or gentiles in the body because the veil was rent and we are all the same in Christ. Those in the early church that were jews are a part of the church in Christ.

3. The jews in the tribulation will be a part of the remnant and the woman in the wilderness will be preserved and make up the rest of the nation's calling in the future.
One has to understand the big picture and how gradual revelation unfolds and the wording and the whys of the wording. God bless. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 · Nov 3, 2015

jerry kelso said:
I didn't hedge on anything and you are still not understanding.

Jerry,

You seem to have no idea where the doctrine you are promoting originated.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)

.

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

ScottA said:
I rest my case.

scotta,
There is no scripture where Christ said the covenant of Abraham and David with the nation of Israel is over. It says it was conditioned by obedience and they have not been obedient yet, but they will be in the future when they become a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:7-8 and at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 when the law will go for from Zion. You have no case and cannot rest on scripture or anything else. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Scott,

My wife and I once attended a church body where we loved the people.

One of the reasons we left was because one of the preachers said it is not finished.

I still love the man. However, those who contradict the words of Jesus to defend their doctrine cannot be trusted with God's Word.

I appreciate you speaking the truth in love.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NC Theology David H J Gay Ministry: It is Finished

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Scott,

My wife and I once attended a church body where we loved the people.

One of the reasons we left was because one of the preachers said it is not finished.

I still love the man. However, those who contradict the words of Jesus to defend their doctrine cannot be trusted with God's Word.

I appreciate you speaking the truth in love.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

NC Theology David H J Gay Ministry: It is Finished

baberean2,
scotta told no truth to the scripture about it is finished.

1. The subject was about the new covenant to the nation of Israel. The new covenant was made at Calvary but it was for the whole world John 3:16.

2. I have already explained it and gave you the scripture and the context.
3. You have not rebutted anything I said according to the scripture.

4. I don't believe everything in dispensational thinking but Paul talks about being given the Dispensation of Grace. A dispensation is a stewardship for a particular period of how God dealt with man in particular ways. This cannot be disputed. Even covenant theology only believe in 2 basic covenants but recognize the different times God gave rulership in different ways to men down through the age.

5. Do you actually believe that Isaiah 2:2-4 is not true? Or Isaiah 66:6-7? Or do you know what they even mean?

6. You believe in New Covenant Theology so I ask you, do you believe Jesus taught the death, burial and resurrection message to the jewish nation in his messianic ministry? Let me know if you understand these scriptures. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 · Nov 4, 2015

jerry kelso said:
baberean2,
scotta told no truth to the scripture about it is finished.

1. The subject was about the new covenant to the nation of Israel. The new covenant was made at Calvary but it was for the whole world John 3:16.

2. I have already explained it and gave you the scripture and the context.
3. You have not rebutted anything I said according to the scripture.

4. I don't believe everything in dispensational thinking but Paul talks about being given the Dispensation of Grace. A dispensation is a stewardship for a particular period of how God dealt with man in particular ways. This cannot be disputed. Even covenant theology only believe in 2 basic covenants but recognize the different times God gave rulership in different ways to men down through the age.

5. Do you actually believe that Isaiah 2:2-4 is not true? Or Isaiah 66:6-7? Or do you know what they even mean?

6. You believe in New Covenant Theology so I ask you, do you believe Jesus taught the death, burial and resurrection message to the jewish nation in his messianic ministry? Let me know if you understand these scriptures. Jerry kelso

Jerry,

If you continue to reject the words of the Savior Himself that... "It is finished", you will never understand scripture.

You will only continue to try to force God's Word to fit John Darby's doctrine.

Many of the passages in the Old Testament are referring to the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. (The Jerusalem in this rotten, sin-cursed world will be remembered no more.)

Isa 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying

The Dispensation of Grace is not going to end 7 years before the return of Christ.

I would not put much stock in Reformed Covenant Theology. It also has some tremendous errors.

.

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Jerry,

If you continue to reject the words of the Savior Himself that... "It is finished", you will never understand scripture.

You will only continue to try to force God's Word to fit John Darby's doctrine.

Many of the passages in the Old Testament are referring to the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. (The Jerusalem in this rotten, sin-cursed world will be remembered no more.)

Isa 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying

The Dispensation of Grace is not going to end 7 years before the return of Christ.

I would not put much stock in Reformed Covenant Theology. It also has some tremendous errors.

.

baberean2,
What in the world are you talking about? Jesus said, It is finished on the cross and that had to do with salvation.
You never did answer my questions.
I never said the dispensation of Grace was going to end 7 years before Christ return. I do not believe in Reformed Covenant Theology.
When I was talking about "it is finished" I wasn't talking about Jesus before he died. I was talking about the earthly calling of Israel in the Kingdom of heaven reign at the head of the nations. Bereans believe this so what is the problem? Be specific about your objection and what you mean by things like the new jerusalem in the old testament is about the new heavens and the new earth. Try again. Jerry Kelso

ScottA · Nov 4, 2015

jerry kelso said:
scotta,
There is no scripture where Christ said the covenant of Abraham and David with the nation of Israel is over. It says it was conditioned by obedience and they have not been obedient yet, but they will be in the future when they become a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:7-8 and at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 when the law will go for from Zion. You have no case and cannot rest on scripture or anything else. Jerry kelso

You are so far from any real understanding of the truth, it is not likely you will understand, but both of those passages in Isaiah are/were fulfilled with the coming of Christ. Look up the verses if you like, but: A child WAS born, and His law goes out from Jerusalem to every nation...since the cross.

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

ScottA said:
You are so far from any real understanding of the truth, it is not likely you will understand, but both of those passages in Isaiah are/were fulfilled with the coming of Christ. Look up the verses if you like, but: A child WAS born, and His law goes out from Jerusalem to every nation...since the cross.

scotta,

1. This is one big problem with your hermeneutics is spiritualizing scripture. You are making a physical application completely spiritual when it isn't. The bible has allegories in it but the problem is using allegory in a whole unit of interpretation.

2. Isaiah 2:2-4 says in the last days the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountain and shall be exalted above the hills and all nations shall flow unto it. This has never happened and it never happened because it is about a physical kingdom and Israel has been trodden down under the feet of men before Christ day, in Christ day to 70 A.D. and the nations have never flown into it and they are still hated today. They have not walked in God's path and many of them are atheists today. Verse 4: neither shall they learn war anymore has not happened for there are wars everywhere. Furthermore, this passage is about Jerusalem and Judah not the church. You are not even trying to be logical or forthright to the scriptures at all.

3. Isaiah 9:6-7; was supposes to happen the first time but the jews rejected Jesus and there is no scripture that said they would accept him. John 1:12 says, he came unto his own and his own received him not.

4. The throne of David was the physical kingdom with the spiritual rule of God in the jews heart. It is all connected with the restoration of all things. Peter shows that he understood the physical kingdom even after the resurrection in Acts 3:19; Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. He still was understanding the kingdom because he hadn't got the vision of the clean and unclean at that time.

5. The grace component of the Davidic covenant is true but it is not the whole of the Kingdom of Heaven message. It was the requirement to enter the physical kingdom reign. I don't know what your motive is in giving partial truths but it is improper hermeneutics. Catholics use this line of thinking to prove we are in the 1000 year reign which is ridiculous because it has been over 1000 years since Calvary and the professing church is not reigning anything. They are professing authority that they don't have. Christ has all power and authority in heaven and earth. Now they will say that Christ is reigning from heaven in our hearts and he is but that has nothing to do with the physical kingdom. The church is in rulership training and Paul told Timothy, if ye suffer ye shall reign. Even at that the church does not have the same exact calling in the physical kingdom as Israel.

6. You are not telling the truth in its proper context and tell me why you want to rob Israel of its eternal covenants. Isaiah 2:2-4 and 9:6-7 are both eternal covenant that dealt with the line of David and his physical throne. God told David as long as his line was disobedient they could not have the throne. This was a physical kingdom based on obedience 1 Chronicles 28. In verse 4 God had chosen David to be ruler forever over Israel because he has chosen Judah to be the ruler etc. and in verse 7 they had to do the commandments. This had nothing to do with Christ dying for the world. Christ would be the spiritual rule of grace in our hearts but it takes the spiritual rule in our hearts to be able to rule the physical kingdom just like Adam and Eve in the garden who sinned and lost rulership of the garden for they were kicked out.

7. Once again you are incorrect and refuse to harmonize the scriptures together for the truth and it is because of allegorical interpretation and refusing to tell the whole truth of the context.

8. Let me ask you a question, when Paul said I die daily what do you think he meant? Jerry Kelso

ScottA · Nov 4, 2015

jerry kelso said:
1. This is one big problem with your hermeneutics is spiritualizing scripture. You are making a physical application completely spiritual when it isn't. The bible has allegories in it but the problem is using allegory in a whole unit of interpretation.

One thing at a time. This is a good place to start:

Let me get this straight. God is spirit....but you think that spiritualizing to properly understand matters of God, is wrong?

Change your mind on this, and then you may have a chance at properly understanding. Or there is no point on discussing anything about God.

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

ScottA said:
One thing at a time. This is a good place to start:

Let me get this straight. God is spirit....but you think that spiritualizing to properly understand matters of God, is wrong?

Change your mind on this, and then you may have a chance at properly understanding. Or there is no point on discussing anything about God.

scotta,
Spiritualizing to understand matters of God is wrong? I didn't say that.
I told you what spiritualizing meant and it has to do with allegorical interpretation. The fact is you are talking about the spiritual aspect and leaving the physical aspect out.
You can disagree all you want but you have yet to properly rebut anything I have said about the physical kingdom not being eternal and more importantly you have not reconciled the scriptures together. You need to be fair in exegesis and debate and rebuttal and you are not being that.
If you know context, tell me what you think Paul meant when he said I die daily? Jerry Kelso

ScottA · Nov 4, 2015

jerry kelso said:
scotta,
Spiritualizing to understand matters of God is wrong? I didn't say that.
I told you what spiritualizing meant and it has to do with allegorical interpretation. The fact is you are talking about the spiritual aspect and leaving the physical aspect out.
You can disagree all you want but you have yet to properly rebut anything I have said about the physical kingdom not being eternal and more importantly you have not reconciled the scriptures together. You need to be fair in exegesis and debate and rebuttal and you are not being that.
If you know context, tell me what you think Paul meant when he said I die daily? Jerry Kelso

1. I was only addressing one point: that of spiritualizing...which is never wrong, for God, being spirit, cannot be wrong. Leaving out the physical aspects of all things, is the process of renewing your mind in spirit and truth. How is it that you find this objectionable?

2. When Paul said I die daily, he was referring to his walk with Christ: to live is Christ.

3. What I rebut, is your position of putting off the things that Christ has already finished, to some supposed future end time (opposing the claim of the original post). It is not proper that a follower of Christ should interpret the scriptures through the lens of time according to the things of men and this world, but rather through the lens of Him who inspired it all. It is not He who must answer in worldly terms, but we who must understand in heavenly terms...or, we cannot say we understand.

Therefore, if Christ says "It is finished", you cannot claim it is not finished because of your own limitation and understanding of just how history works. History is not your story...it is His story.

jerry kelso · Nov 4, 2015

ScottA said:
1. I was only addressing one point: that of spiritualizing...which is never wrong, for God, being spirit, cannot be wrong. Leaving out the physical aspects of all things, is the process of renewing your mind in spirit and truth. How is it that you find this objectionable?

2. When Paul said I die daily, he was referring to his walk with Christ: to live is Christ.

3. What I rebut, is your position of putting off the things that Christ has already finished, to some supposed future end time (opposing the claim of the original post). It is not proper that a follower of Christ should interpret the scriptures through the lens of time according to the things of men and this world, but rather through the lens of Him who inspired it all. It is not He who must answer in worldly terms, but we who must understand in heavenly terms...or, we cannot say we understand.

Therefore, if Christ says "It is finished", you cannot claim it is not finished because of your own limitation and understanding of just how history works. History is not your story...it is His story.

scotta,

1. I am not against the spiritual aspect of a passage or the physical aspect of renewing your mind in spirit and truth. The context of the subject of Israel's callings is a physical kingdom that is tied to the restoration of all things on earth spiritually and physically.

2. Christ never said the calling of Israel as the head of the nations was finished. You can't show one scripture that says that. You won't answer to the history of the promise to David of the physical kingdom because you have to keep it as just spiritual.
You are the one who is speaking in worldly terms because you can't show proper scripture and context and reconciling all the scriptures together to harmonize. Where did you learn to interpret without understanding the context.

3. I die daily is about to live for Christ but what is the rest of the context? What was the reason Paul said this phrase and can you pinpoint by scripture to prove exactly what his main point was? Jerry kelso

ScottA · Nov 5, 2015

jerry kelso said:
1. I am not against the spiritual aspect of a passage or the physical aspect of renewing your mind in spirit and truth. The context of the subject of Israel's callings is a physical kingdom that is tied to the restoration of all things on earth spiritually and physically.

Spiritual yes, physically no. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

jerry kelso said:
2. Christ never said the calling of Israel as the head of the nations was finished. You can't show one scripture that says that. You won't answer to the history of the promise to David of the physical kingdom because you have to keep it as just spiritual.
You are the one who is speaking in worldly terms because you can't show proper scripture and context and reconciling all the scriptures together to harmonize. Where did you learn to interpret without understanding the context.

Christ came for the house of Israel, and then said it [what He came for] was finished.

As for being head of the nations...that was the promise to Abraham, fulfilled by Christ.

jerry kelso said:
3. I die daily is about to live for Christ but what is the rest of the context? What was the reason Paul said this phrase and can you pinpoint by scripture to prove exactly what his main point was?

Are you just trying to test me? Spit it out. Make your point.

Paul was referring to the resurrection of the dead.

jerry kelso · Nov 5, 2015

ScottA said:
Spiritual yes, physically no. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Christ came for the house of Israel, and then said it [what He came for] was finished.

As for being head of the nations...that was the promise to Abraham, fulfilled by Christ.
Are you just trying to test me? Spit it out. Make your point.

Paul was referring to the resurrection of the dead.

scotta,

1. Flesh and blood shall not inherit heaven but we will be resurrected and have a spiritual body that is incorruptible. Read 1 Corinthians 15. Verse 4 says it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. Yes we will be in heaven where Christ has a place he is preparing for us John 14:2-3. He is not preparing a mansion here but he is in heaven.

2. Show me a scripture he said it was finished for Israel permanently. There isn't one, for it was eternal conditioned on obedience and it says all Israel will be saved. Read Romans 11:26 and the time will be when the time of the gentiles come in and this will not be until Christ takes the kingdoms of this world from gentile rule. Revelation 11:15.

3. I already made the point about Isaiah 2:2-4. Christ didn't fulfill this for Abraham and has never been at the head of the nations spiritually or physically and in Christ day they didn't for they rejected him. Read Matthew 23:37-39.

4. Paul was referring to the resurrection of the believer. Now what did he mean by the specific phrase, I die daily? Did he die physically or spiritually?

5. Now I have debunked your position and logic by scripture. I have showed either you do not comprehend a plain statement and context that I have given about Israel as the head of nations or you just have tunnel vision from your wrong hermeneutics or you just are purposely casting doubt to make it sound like you are right. Which is it? You have only mentioned an overall answer about Paul dying daily instead of the specific phrase. You are the one that needs to answer the questions to the point and by scripture and quit making out like you are interpreting scripture right because you are not. Anyone can believe what they like but one needs to be fair in exegesis and debate and rebuttal and you have not shown that. Show it. Jerry kelso

ScottA · Nov 5, 2015

jerry kelso said:
4. Paul was referring to the resurrection of the believer. Now what did he mean by the specific phrase, I die daily? Did he die physically or spiritually?

Physically.

ScottA · Nov 5, 2015

jerry kelso said:
2. Show me a scripture he said it was finished for Israel permanently. There isn't one, for it was eternal conditioned on obedience and it says all Israel will be saved. Read Romans 11:26 and the time will be when the time of the gentiles come in and this will not be until Christ takes the kingdoms of this world from gentile rule. Revelation 11:15.

3. I already made the point about Isaiah 2:2-4. Christ didn't fulfill this for Abraham and has never been at the head of the nations spiritually or physically and in Christ day they didn't for they rejected him. Read Matthew 23:37-39.

I already showed you: “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” and "It is finished." But you do not know that they are the dead in Christ, the first fruits, who reign with Him over the nations (even now), even though they rejected Him.

jerry kelso · Nov 5, 2015

ScottA said:
I already showed you: “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” and "It is finished." But you do not know that they are the dead in Christ, the first fruits, who reign with Him over the nations (even now), even though they rejected Him.

scotta,

1. Matthew 10:6-7 was in Jesus ministry under the law of Moses which we were never under and are not now. It was the kingdom message which had to do with Israel's earthly calling that they rejected at that time but will be when they obey in the future. It was also before the cross in which Christ died for the whole world. There is no where in that passage that says It is finished or even implies that. You are putting your own opinion in it.

2. Those dead in christ don't have resurrected bodies for 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 has not been fulfilled for we have not been caught up together with them in Christ who will bring them from heaven and they will be changed first; verse 15. They are not reigning over the nations and you have no scripture for that.

3. Obviously, you don't know what the phrase, "I die daily" means because you won't answer to it.

4. The more you post you are giving the perception that you just want to purposely be unfair to the scriptures and prove a man made doctrine and logic. Why don't you reconcile all the scriptures on the subject. God said his covenant with Israel was eternal and was conditioned by obedience. In Jesus day they rejected the message and they did not receive the kingdom. Paul records after that tells us that Israel had forsaken Christ but will be grafted back in and that they will come back into covenant with them. Romans 11 says this in a plain statement and context. Their gifts and callings are without repentance because they will come into obedience in the future and take their rightful place at the head of the nations. Verse 28 says; As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes, but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sake. They are elect which means they will come back to Christ as the nation which is different from the calling of the church today.

5. You can't answer to the whole of scripture on this subject and you have prove it for you won't answer to them and when you do to some like Matthew 10:6-7 you misuse the scripture that doesn't say what you say it says and you won't own up to it. When you start being fair to the scripture then maybe we can have a fair exchange but I highly doubt if you are going to try very hard. Jerry Kelso

Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

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