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Well Bob you always seem to holler about details. For me some of the details is context in this case. We have the Pharisees trying to trap Jesus as I mentioned i v 3. I see the man's question as a continuation of the same by the way Matthew wrote the contents of the chapter. I know you will not because you base everything strictly on words. That does carry some weight, just not quite enough. Your bridge collapses under the weight in this case.God's Commandments include God's TEN Commandments (Obviously)
I don't see how this is helping your argument.
The way I see the verse is a woman is not to cause a disturbance in the worship service.
Women teaching women and children is fine.
So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??
I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.
You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??
===========================
This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"
Hello Bob.
You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.
I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.
This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men.
They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church.
Paul can support a commandment by using the law in some instances. Though many commandments in the N.T. have no shadow legal law.
Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
Paul gave the instruction and then Paul backs up the instruction by reference to the law.
Hello bugkiller.The way I see the verse is a woman is not to cause a disturbance in the worship service. I would also agree that a woman is not to teach a class generally to men or mixed company. I also mildly object to women worship leaders as they are called these days. Women teaching women and children is fine. I do not accept women pastors.
bugkiller
Hello Bob.Is it "fixation" to even "mention" a Bible detail that others find "inconvenient"??
Genesis 3 tells the wife to be in subjection to her husband --
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
1 Cor 14 appeals to mosaic Law - in this regard.
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Actually it is you that bring up the 1 Cor 14 quote about women who are supposed to learn at home and not speak while at church.
Until they get home? Not allowed to "learn at church"??
Can appeal to OT Law that is still in authority? or "can reject OT LAW then appeal to the rejected deleted/abolished law for its authority"??
Your quote fro Eph 6 makes no mention at all of law or commandment. We both can see that ... right?
You know what I meant to say.Actually it is you that bring up the 1 Cor 14 quote about women who are supposed to learn at home and not speak while at church.
Until they get home? Not allowed to "learn at church"??
That is what our discussion has always been about, the O.T. law is not in authority.Can appeal to OT Law that is still in authority? or "can reject OT LAW then appeal to the rejected deleted/abolished law for its authority"??
There are two lines in that text from Ephesians 6, now we will read the third line.Your quote fro Eph 6 makes no mention at all of law or commandment. We both can see that ... right?
That is what our discussion has always been about, the O.T. law is not in authority.
The commandments, the sayings of Jesus are what the apostles taught.
There are two lines in that text from Ephesians 6, now we will read the third line.
4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??
I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.
You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??
===========================
This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"
Hello Bob.
You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.
I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.
This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men.
They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church.
Hello Bob.
Your view of women in the ministry of the church is not supported by the scripture.
.
Hello Bob.
My mistake below.
You know what I meant to say.
So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?
BTW - very glad to see this effort on your part to affirm the LAW that Paul claims we find in the OT.
Did you ever answer this question?? Or are we still waiting??
1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
Do you agree this is inspired by God?
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
So then you "reject" this because it appeals to what the "LAW" says as being binding on the church??
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Then do you also reject - Ephesians 6:2? because it ALSO appeals to that OT unit of LAW?
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),
Notice in both cases the authority of the LAW is appealed to as enforcement for the text.
Or were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
You brought it up - as it turns out.
Is this "you" bringing up 1 Cor 14?
Women in my church not only sing during congregational singing, they also LEARN while in church as they hear the sermon.
Are you challenging this practice with 1 Cor 14?
If so -- then "read the details" in the chapter to find your mistake.
1 Cor 14
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
Do you agree this is inspired by God?
So then we both agree that Deborah in the book of Judges - both a prophetess and also a judge of Israel - also fully complied with the Genesis 3 command... True or false?
in the NT we have this --
BTW nothing in the OT says that women cannot sing or speak in church. Rather Deborah a prophetess of God speaks not only the Word of God in the assembly - but judges all Israel. And the prophetess Anna speaks in the sanctuary - even before Christ has commissioned the disciples - while He is an infant.
So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??
I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.
You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??
===========================
This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"
Hello Bob.
Your view of women in the ministry of the church is not supported by the scripture.
1 Timothy 2
9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, ...
He sure seems to miss lots of details.Well Bob you always seem to holler about details. For me some of the details is context in this case. We have the Pharisees trying to trap Jesus as I mentioned i v 3. I see the man's question as a continuation of the same by the way Matthew wrote the contents of the chapter. I know you will not because you base everything strictly on words. That does carry some weight, just not quite enough. Your bridge collapses under the weight in this case.
bugkiller
You don't know about the seating arrangement in the synagogue and many other public venues of the day.Neither would a man be allowed to "cause a disturbance" in worship.We probably both agree on that point as well.
Do you view this as in line with women not learning anything in church and keeping silence while at church?
You should ask this question of yourself.Is it "fixation" to even "mention" a Bible detail that others find "inconvenient"??
The objective Bible scholar (a person who is highly educated or has an aptitude for study) will consider all of the Scripture to base their theology and beliefs on. You obviously don't.The objective unbiased Bible students will notice that Ephesians 6:2 comes immediately after Ephesians 6:1 (Not Ephesians 6:4). I think we all agree on this basic and obvious Bible detail.
When was Deborah in the sanctuary?That word is husband -- which is why it does not conflict with the texts that describe the work of Deborah and Anna in the Sanctuary.
Please explain Bob.1. The context is - husband and wife: example: Adam and Eve
2. The word applies to husband.
I see no issue.3. Still waiting for your answer to the issue with Anna and Deborah as quoted above.
Hello Bob.
I am baffled by some of your replies.
When was Deborah in the sanctuary?
The only problem with your quotation is that Genesis is not in the law.Genesis 3 tells the wife to be in subjection to her husband
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
That is what the text says.Actually it is you that bring up the 1 Cor 14 quote about women who are supposed to learn at home and not speak while at church.
Until they get home? Not allowed to "learn at church"??
Hello Bob.Is it your argument that it is ok for the prophetess Anna in the NT but not for Deborah as prophetess and judge in the OT?
I find your logic "illusive" just then. (No matter that it has nothing to do with this thread topic)
How do you justify that Deborah worked in the temple?the texts that describe the work of Deborah and Anna in the Sanctuary.
Hello Bob.
You said Deborah worked in the temple.
So then you suppose that the Bible condemns Anna and Deborah no matter that the Bible affirms them - or you suppose that they "lose liberty under the Gospel" and claim that they should be glad they are not living in the NT after the cross??
I think we are all aware of the fact that in many Christian churches the women in attendance outnumber the men.
You bring up the 1 Cor 14 that the LAW says this --
1 Cor 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Is this because you affirm the Law as Paul does in 1 Cor 14??
===========================
This thread is about Rev 14:12 "the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
Notice how Jesus Himself claims that this means KEEPING the "Father's Commandment"
Hello Bob.
You may need to explain the following so that I can understand your point.
I see the command to not eat the fruit as a one off command, one that only Adam and Eve could disobey. So I do not understand your fixation with Genesis 3.
This is a commandment, women are not permitted to exercise authority over men.
They are not permitted to ask questions about what they are taught in church.
Hello Bob.
Your view of women in the ministry of the church is not supported by the scripture.
.
Hello Bob.
In reference to the text which I will print below.
1 Corinthians 14
34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
You replied with the following.
The only problem with your quotation is that Genesis is not in the law.
The law of Moses prohibits women from service in the sanctuary. Only the Levitical priests minister in the temple, only men can be priests.
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