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Since this is your board, the host should go first. Please, begin...Peter said:
Amen, as do I. I do not know how such will be accomplished, but I have faith it will happen one day. We need each other just as a body needs both lungs to breathe properly. As a Latin Catholic I would welcome such a reunion and I'm sure there are a number of Eastern Catholics whose Churches broke from Orthodoxy who would love reunion as well. Now how to get past centuries of petty bickering... I leave it in God's hands. Perhaps we can do our parts by not only praying about it, but being honest with one another on our differences -- NOT for the sake of apologetics but as one brother to another. Eventually they'll work themselves out. I like the efforts of the St. John Chrysostom Society...Maximus said:
Word up, homeboy.Roald said:
) and orthopraxis. Some of us interpret these decisions as saying that ecumenism (and therefore inoffensiveness) is more important than following the ways and traditions handed down by the Apostles.
That has not as much to do with Vatican II as it has to do with people hell-bent on remaking the Church in their own image. Having read documents from several Catholic Councils (Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II predominantly) I don't see anything that separates Vatican II from the others. If anything, I think Vatican II was more explicit on what it meant... that has been largely ignored. For instance, when speaking of the Novus Ordo, it was clear that the use of Latin was to be retained, as was the use of Gregorian Chant... that never happened... or didn't at first. Things are definitely "swinging back" from the liberal spin (mostly in the United States) that was placed on it.Matrona said:
From the outside looking in, it may seem that way... but I daresay that you were probably given these notions from people who were dissatisified with Vatican II (ie: reactionary Catholics) rather than pouring over all the Vatican II documents yourself.Matrona said:In many Orthodox eyes, we look at things like Vatican II and we see the Catholic Church placing ecumenism higher than orthodoxy (notice the little "o"
On one hand people lamblast the Catholic Church for issuing offensive documents like Domini Iesus which, according to them relegates all non-Catholics to a sort of "second class Christian" and on the other, the Catholic Church is so ecumenical as to water down all of Christianity. What's it going to be?Matrona said:
Remember, the Orthodox Church went through an iconoclastic phase herself. You can thank the West for helping maintain those traditions during that dark period. If the Orthodox Church serves as an example for the West this time around, I say we can call it even, no?Matrona said:
At the time you handled it, it was simply bread and wine. The consecration comes afterwards.Matrona said:
With popes kissing Qu'ran's, they are schism is too large...
I can only hope yours is the minority opinion (very minor at that).Reformed Baptist said:I don't agree with the teachings of the Orthodox Church (I'm an ex-Greek Orthodox), but feel the Orthodox are better off without the RC church.
Yes.Oblio said:
Yes, I'd say so as well, but perhaps the priest did this for a variety of reasons. Perhaps he thought that this gesture would strike a chord within her and result in the bestowing of grace effecting her conversion. Or, perhaps it just didn't click with him that she wasn't Christian, maybe he was distracted. I don't know. In my parish, only practicing Catholics bring forth the gifts prior to the consecration.Oblio said:
Forgive my inexperience with "all things Orthodox" but are you referring to the point in the Liturgy where the priest processes through the church with the bread and wine during the Cherubimic Hymn? If so, I'd say that this is at a similar point in the Mass, however the priest, in the Latin Rite, never leaves the altar while the Mass is being performed.Oblio said:
Oblio said:
It is not unknown within our faith that God works in mysterious ways. As a matter of fact, Chanter and I had just discussed St. Ambrose, who went from an unbaptized citizen of Milan to Bishop based simply on the voice of a lone child... and where was he at the time? In church.nyj said:
If Vatican II was more explicit, then why was its explicitness largely ignored? Seems like if the language of the decisions of a council suddenly got a lot more explicit than it had been for previous councils, it would make people stand up and pay attention.nyj said:
I've heard that theoretically, a present-day Roman Catholic priest could celebrate a Novus Ordo mass in Latin and facing with the people.
Well, I can't say I pored over ancient documents when I was searching for a new church. I can say, however, that there are reasons I didn't take the Catholic exit off the spiritual seeker roundabout, and Vatican II isn't really one of them, and I don't think making a decision of whether or not to become Catholic has to necessarily involve travelling to Rome and digging through the Vatican archives.
The answer, I think, is to strike it down the middle. In other words, it wouldn't be right to try to convince all other Christians that they're going to burn forever unless they become Catholic--but nor is it right to be "ecumenical" to the point where the Pope kisses a book of lies and heresy.
I could live with that.Remember, the Orthodox Church went through an iconoclastic phase herself. You can thank the West for helping maintain those traditions during that dark period. If the Orthodox Church serves as an example for the West this time around, I say we can call it even, no?
I knew that it hadn't been consecrated, but I still felt really uncomfortable about it--a better way to phrase that sentence would have been to say, "I did as the priest asked me to, but I felt REALLY uncomfortable about handling what was intended to be consecrated as the body of Christ while I had yet to be baptized a Christian."
