Resurrection - Eternal Life

[John Davidson]

He was speaking of the second death.

And why would our spirits need to be with our bodies? Why not just live as spirits?

You certainly have many heterodox beliefs.

 

[ewq1938]

We gain a glorified body yes, but the Bible doesn't say that "our spirit is reunited with our body" at the resurrection. It just doesn't say that.

Paul said that the new body is a spiritual body. That means it's not physical.

No, it does not mean that. It is very much physical just as Christ's body was after resurrecting.

 

[ewq1938]

He was speaking of the second death.

And why would our spirits need to be with our bodies? Why not just live as spirits?

Because that is not what God wants. A full person is body soul and spirit and that's what we shall be.

 

[LastSeven]

You certainly have many heterodox beliefs.

Regardless if I'm the only person in the world who believes this (though I know I'm not), I'm only trying to believe the truth.

 

[LastSeven]

Because that is not what God wants. A full person is body soul and spirit and that's what we shall be.

I encourage you to do some research, not only in what the scriptures say, but what the words actually mean. You use the words soul and spirit as though they mean something to you, but you've clearly never done the research.

 

[ewq1938]

I encourage you to do some research, not only in what the scriptures say, but what the words actually mean. You use the words soul and spirit as though they mean something to you, but you've clearly never done the research.

You have nothing to base that on though. I have studied them, quite a lot in fact. That you think we are a soul and don't have a soul, and have not a spirit reveals your lack of study on the matter actually. So allow me to encourage you to do some research, not only in what the scriptures say, but what the words actually mean.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

This 'sub-discussion' is not exactly the primary thrust of the thread, but seems to me of some value. So here is my understanding.

Actually, "soul sleep" is not Traditionally taught by the Church.

Right. "Soul sleep" is - as far as I can tell and therefore subject to correction - a somewhat 'stopgap' measure used by some to explain the seeming discrepancy of one dying in the temporal realm and arriving in the Eternal realm. Obviously, the Judgement has no yet happened and the Second Coming of Jesus has not yet happened, but any number of Christians have 'died'. They HAVE to be somewhere!

I've always been under the impression that when we die our spirits go to heaven and then when Jesus returns we are reunited with our bodies.

That is the other side of the problem of 'death' and Eternity.

I've done some thinking - always dangerous, no doubt - and come to the following conclusion. I don't think my conclusion is in conflict with any concept in Scripture, even if it disagrees with some doctrinal or individual 'beliefs' or understandings. Feel free to point out inconsistencies or Biblical contradictions.

My first objection to 'soul sleep' is the implied inability of God to conduct Eternity simultaneously with temporal Earth. Almighty God is not, cannot, be limited by the dictates of an Earthly calendar (in my not so humble opinion.)

My first solution was: Why would it not be possible for the soul upon 'death' to be taken through time to the Judgement instantly? 'We' (those confined to time) do not have 'time travel' per se, but that surely does not limit God.

Then, it occurred to me once 'we' die, 'we' are no longer subject to time. Once 'dead' (according to the Earthly 'rules') we are in Eternity, are we not?

What day is it in Eternity? It is - ah - Eternity. My thought is all of us 'late' inhabitants of the physical realm arrive in Eternity 'simultaneously' in our understanding. It will be Judgement day 'there' and no waiting is required.

By the way, John; I understand 'we' shall be provided with 'heavenly', 'new' or 'spiritual' bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:35 ff deal with this. I'm not sure what all this entails, but I suspect an Earthly body in somehow not suitable for Eternity. I am also very relieved, as this body is about shot anyway; it is due for at least a major overhaul.

Please note, these thoughts and conjectures presented are mine only - as far as I know - and adherence or rejection do not have any bearing on salvation.

 

[LastSeven]

...any number of Christians have 'died'. They HAVE to be somewhere!

Ya, they're in their graves or cremation urns. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to imagine that death actually means death, as in "no life".

That is the other side of the problem of 'death' and Eternity.

I've done some thinking - always dangerous, no doubt - and come to the following conclusion. I don't think my conclusion is in conflict with any concept in Scripture, even if it disagrees with some doctrinal or individual 'beliefs' or understandings. Feel free to point out inconsistencies or Biblical contradictions.

My first objection to 'soul sleep' is the implied inability of God to conduct Eternity simultaneously with temporal Earth. Almighty God is not, cannot, be limited by the dictates of an Earthly calendar (in my not so humble opinion.)

My first solution was: Why would it not be possible for the soul upon 'death' to be taken through time to the Judgement instantly? 'We' (those confined to time) do not have 'time travel' per se, but that surely does not limit God.

Then, it occurred to me once 'we' die, 'we' are no longer subject to time. Once 'dead' (according to the Earthly 'rules') we are in Eternity, are we not?

What day is it in Eternity? It is - ah - Eternity. My thought is all of us 'late' inhabitants of the physical realm arrive in Eternity 'simultaneously' in our understanding. It will be Judgement day 'there' and no waiting is required.

By the way, John; I understand 'we' shall be provided with 'heavenly', 'new' or 'spiritual' bodies. 1 Corinthians 15:35 ff deal with this. I'm not sure what all this entails, but I suspect an Earthly body in somehow not suitable for Eternity. I am also very relieved, as this body is about shot anyway; it is due for at least a major overhaul.

Please note, these thoughts and conjectures presented are mine only - as far as I know - and adherence or rejection do not have any bearing on salvation.

I like your willingness to think outside the box and outside of the traditional teachings. An open mind like that is the only way to learn.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ya, they're in their graves or cremation urns. I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to imagine that death actually means death, as in "no life".

I like your willingness to think outside the box and outside of the traditional teachings. An open mind like that is the only way to learn.

But this is the problem. You are posting in Traditional Theology, and the whole point is that we believe that the Apostles understood what Christ taught, and they taught it to their disciples, who then became the leaders of the Church - especially the foundations of the faith. Surely such important things as "what happens to us when we die?" were remembered and taught. They were believed by those who complied the canon of the Scripture which you now, many centuries later, read and come to the conclusion that they were wrong.

If that WERE true, then Christ did not fulfill His promise, and the Holy Spirit did not lead them into the Truth. In fact, He was in on the deception Himself, by repeating a "parable" as you say, that confirmed a "false" idea (read "lie") of the then-culture that DID believe souls still existed in a conscious state after death. And somehow, even having been misled and lied to by Christ Himself (God forbid!), these poor misguided souls managed to write and compile Scriptures that they themselves did not even understand, only to have them finally "decoded" nearly 2000 years later by someone who did not have that same connection to Christ.

This is why we have respect for the deposit of faith that was handed down ("traditioned" - it was originally from a verb) by the Apostles and early Church fathers.

 

[LastSeven]

But this is the problem. You are posting in Traditional Theology, and the whole point is that we believe that the Apostles understood what Christ taught, and they taught it to their disciples, who then became the leaders of the Church - especially the foundations of the faith. Surely such important things as "what happens to us when we die?" were remembered and taught.
the canon of the Scripture which you now, many centuries later, read and come to the conclusion that they were wrong.

Just because the apostles understood, doesn't mean the church leaders understood.

If that were true, then Christ did not fulfill His promise, and the Holy Spirit did not lead them into the Truth.

Or, perhaps these church leaders were not led to the truth, because they did not listen to the holy spirit.

He was in on the deception Himself, by repeating a "parable" as you say, that confirmed a "false" idea (read "lie") of the then-culture that DID believe souls still existed in a conscious state after death. And somehow, even having been misled and lied to by Christ Himself (God forbid!), these poor misguided souls managed to write and compile Scriptures that they themselves did not even understand, only to have them finally "decoded" nearly 2000 years later by someone who did not have that same connection to Christ.

Do you really think that believing death is death, requires Christ to have lied? Have you considered that people have just misunderstood his words? How many times did Jesus chastise his own disciples for not understanding? And they lived with him. And how many of the people who he preached to personally every day did not accept his words because they didn't understand? How much more likely is it that the early church leaders, who never met Christ personally, did not understand?

Your faith in your church is strong. Maybe too strong.

 

[All4Christ]

Just because the apostles understood, doesn't mean the church leaders understood.

Or, perhaps these church leaders were not led to the truth, because they did not listen to the holy spirit.

Do you really think that believing death is death, requires Christ to have lied? Have you considered that people have just misunderstood his words? How many times did Jesus chastise his own disciples for not understanding? And they lived with him. And how many of the people who he preached to personally every day did not accept his words because they didn't understand? How much more likely is it that the early church leaders, who never met Christ personally, did not understand?

Your faith in your church is strong. Maybe too strong.

She has faith that God has promised to give His Church guidance throughout the generations. She has faith that God did not leave us alone to figure everything out. She has faith that the Holy Spirit guided the Early Church, and recognizes that the Early Church was led by the Holy Spirit to compile Scripture. Most Traditional Churches, Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant, believe something similar.

The Orthodox Church believes in Prima Scriptura (nothing can contradict scripture), but we acknowledge that we are given help and guidance from the Holy Spirit, along with assistance from the Church, as guided by the Holy Spirit. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church can also help interpret Scripture, as has been done since the apostolic times.

Just my two cents from our viewpoint. No offense intended.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just because the apostles understood, doesn't mean the church leaders understood.

Or, perhaps these church leaders were not led to the truth, because they did not listen to the holy spirit.

Then how can you have faith in the Scriptures they compiled? Perhaps the truth is really found in the Gospel of Thomas, or the Apocalypse of Peter?

Bottom line, if the Holy Spirit did not guide the Church, you have nothing to base your faith upon, and you also call the Scriptures a lie.

1 Tim. 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Do you really think that believing death is death, requires Christ to have lied?

You are twisting my words. Christ spoke in parables yes, but they were things based on actual life. Farmers sowed seed. Sons left home. Trees grow. People ignore or else have compassion on others. Sickly seedlings die. Birds eat seeds. Fig trees produce leaves before fruit. People look for lost things. Weak foundations allow a house to be washed away.

Everything that Christ said, in parable form, was based on things that REALLY HAPPENED. They were little stories, used to make things more understandable to people. Christ also corrected people's misunderstandings. I don't believe He would have used a corruption of an understanding of basic nature to prove His point and then never address the faulty foundation.

Have you considered that people have just misunderstood his words? How many times did Jesus chastise his own disciples for not understanding? And they lived with him. And how many of the people who he preached to personally every day did not accept his words because they didn't understand? How much more likely is it that the early church leaders, who never met Christ personally, did not understand?

Then again, what CAN you believe in? Maybe they misunderstood that there would be a resurrection, or eternal life, or that God hears our prayers?

This is silly. "They just misunderstood THIS part, because I don't agree with it." I've heard that from certain denominations before. It is the weakest argument of all, and akin to putting one's thumbs in one's ears and saying "Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah!" so that one doesn't have to hear what someone else is saying.

Your faith in your church is strong. Maybe too strong.

Ignoring the fact that you are resorting to personal insult here ...

My faith in the Truth of Christianity is strong. It is not only "my church" but rather the understanding of Christianity as a whole from the very beginning, and most of the Jews before them, who have always believed this.


ETA: and thank you to All4Christ, who explained that last part better than I did while I was typing my reply.

 

[LastSeven]

I believe in the authors of the scriptures, not so much those who interpret those scriptures.

 

[LastSeven]

Ignoring the fact that you are resorting to personal insult here ...

That wasn't meant to be an insult in any way. Just making the point that humans are fallible, and your church is governed by humans.

 

[All4Christ]

That wasn't meant to be an insult in any way. Just making the point that humans are fallible, and your church is governed by humans.

That is one reason we don't have a Pope. I agree that humans are fallible, and it is only by God's grace that He guides us as a community, not solely as individuals.

I know you may disagree, but do you see where I am coming from?

 

[MennoSota]

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1 Peter 1:1-2

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then how can you have faith in the Scriptures they compiled?

Our Faith is in Yhwh the Creator Himself, and in Jesus' Faithfulness.

 

[All4Christ]

Our Faith is in Yhwh the Creator Himself, and in Jesus' Faithfulness.

As is ours.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Our* Faith is in Yhwh the Creator Himself, and in Jesus' Faithfulness.

*Our=everyone with Faith in Yhwh Himself, and in Jesus' Faithfulness.

As is ours.

Good, in the Pure Wholeness of Christ Jesus.
Not mixed with trust in men.

 

[All4Christ]

*Our=everyone with Faith in Yhwh Himself, and in Jesus' Faithfulness.

Good, in the Pure Wholeness of Christ Jesus.
Not mixed with trust in men.

We don't trust in men. We trust that God can also provide help through His Church, but it is all due to Him, not to human knowledge or thought. Isn't that similar to trust that God can help us individually? God can help us corporately as well.

ETA: Any individual interpretation we make that is correct is through the power of God. Any interpretation from the Church is guided through the Holy Spirit, not by men. I agree that we humans are fallible.