Resurrection - Eternal Life

[LastSeven]

That's what I do. No scripture supports soul sleep.

um.. I could show you a whole bunch. Just cause you don't believe it, doesn't mean there's no support.

Soul has two meanings. We are a soul, but we also have a soul. The two soul's are different. The bodiless souls in heaven are fully alert and can even speak and are aware of Earthly events, as shown in the 5th seal.

You're using symbolic language to prove that a soul is a spirit? Weak. A soul is a living creature, and wishing it had two meanings doesn't make it so. Besides, nowhere in Revelation 6 does it say these souls have no bodies, so it doesn't support your position in any way.

That's incorrect. We have a spirit and a soul. A complete person is body soul and spirit.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a nebulous scripture, which if taken with your understanding, contradicts many other much clearer scriptures. Therefore your understanding must be skewed. You must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scriptures.

Besides that, if you say there are three parts to a person, what do you think is the difference between a soul and spirit? Didn't you say earlier that they are the same thing? If that's so, then how do you explain your example above?

Moses died yet he came to speak with Christ.

Moses and Elijah were resurrected/transformed early. This is why his grave was to be kept secret, because it's now empty. When we're resurrected we'll have the same type of body that Moses now has.

The souls of the saints in heaven are alert and speak, 5th seal.

symbolism.

The rich man and Lazarus are described as alert and awake after death.

parable.

Again, not a single verse address the state of a person in the afterlife shows them sleeping.

And if I prove you wrong, will you relent? Of course you won't, but I'll do it anyway.

Psalms 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. (All the Biblical fathers were said to "sleep with their fathers" upon death, not just David.)

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

John 11:11-14
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Matthew 9:24
He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

Clearly, there's too much evidence to ignore. When we die, we rest, aka "sleep". It's plain as day. Any scriptures that appear to contradict this fact, are simply being misunderstood.

And don't forget the most obvious. If we are already spirits, then there's no point in the resurrection. And if we go to heaven when we die then there's no point in the judgement. No other scriptures required here. Just common sense.

 

[LastSeven]

Post 36

So, let's see. Moses talking to Jesus, the souls under the altar and a parable about a rich man. Is that "every single verse"?

Not a single one of them is strong evidence for your position that people are fully conscious after death. They're all nebulous. Not a single one of them says "the dead are conscious". On the other hand I've shown you a verse that clearly says "the dead know nothing". And several others that say essentially the same thing. Yet you think your position has the stronger evidence? Really?

 

[~Anastasia~]

The point in the resurrection is that the normal state of the human being is to be composed of a body of flesh and a spirit/soul. Adam and Eve were such. Every human being ever born is such.

Death is an unnatural state. Were it not for Adam's sin, there would be no death. The death of the body happens because of the curse that fell upon mankind as a result of sin. But God is not content to leave mankind under the curse. We will be redeemed and creation along with us. Death will be no more.

But until that has reached its completion, for now, everything still dies. The soul separates from the body - an unnatural state. The body is subject to corruption in the meantime. The soul experiences a foretaste of eternity, based on its disposition towards God. At the time of the end, all bodies will be raised, and at that time the souls will once again be reunited with bodies, again the state mankind was created for. Then comes the judgement.

Scriptures can be argued back and forth, one side dismissing those of the other.

For my part, I would say that basing doctrines on books like Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, etc. is not wise, especially when one has to resort to a number of mechanisms to dismiss the other Scriptures that say otherwise.

And to "fall asleep" is a euphemism that people understood to mean "to die". We still use it in our Church. It is rather like when you hear someone saying that people are "sleeping together" ... Sleep is not what is being described and we all know it.


Not to mention, these OT poetry verses come from a time before Pentecost, when all truth was revealed to the Church, as Christ promised. In our Tradition, we view the OT through the lens and better understanding of the NT, especially the Gospels and the words of Christ.

 

[LastSeven]

See, the problem with your position is that it relies on a few things that are not even stated in scripture.

The point in the resurrection is that the normal state of the human being is to be composed of a body of flesh and a spirit/soul.

Nowhere in scripture does it say this. Not even close. You're also using the words spirit and soul interchangeable as if they mean the same thing. Do some research into this topic before you try to assert yourself.

At the time of the end, all bodies will be raised, and at that time the souls will once again be reunited with bodies

Nowhere in scripture does it say this. Souls reunited with bodies? I challenge you to find me a single passage that even comes close to saying this.

If this were the case, don't you think Paul would have mentioned this "reunification" at some point during his lengthy and very detailed explanation of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15? He was addressing specifically the questions "how are the dead raised" and "with what body will they come"? And he did not once say anything remotely close to what you just said.

 

[ewq1938]

um.. I could show you a whole bunch. Just cause you don't believe it, doesn't mean there's no support.

I've studied it for decades...there is no support for soul sleep.\

A soul is a living creature, and wishing it had two meanings doesn't make it so.

It's a fact soul have two meanings.

Besides, nowhere in Revelation 6 does it say these souls have no bodies, so it doesn't support your position in any way.

It's prior to the resurrection so yes they have no bodies and that isn't even the point. You claim these dead saints should be asleep yet they aren't.

Besides that, if you say there are three parts to a person, what do you think is the difference between a soul and spirit? Didn't you say earlier that they are the same thing? If that's so, then how do you explain your example above?

There is no difference scripturally in Greek or Hebrew between spirit and soul other than the names. They are basically like twins of something. They are connected together so where a spirit is the soul is there also.

Moses and Elijah were resurrected/transformed early.

That's only opinion not a fact.

This is why his grave was to be kept secret, because it's now empty.

Which doesn't make sense. Moses' body is still in his grave because the resurrection has not yet happened.

symbolism.

Nope.

parable.

Parables speak of true things so saying "parable" is meaningless.

And if I prove you wrong, will you relent? Of course you won't, but I'll do it anyway.

I would but you can't provide something which doesn't exist nor does scripture contradict itself. The dead are fully alert.

Psalms 13:3

Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

1 Kings 2:10
Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. (All the Biblical fathers were said to "sleep with their fathers" upon death, not just David.)

When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

And Jesus explained he wasn't sleeping but that he was dead.

John 11:11-14

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven?

Because sleep is a metaphor for death. Never does it mean literal sleeping when it's used as this death metaphor.

And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

Same reason how tall he is isn't mentioned.

Matthew 9:24

He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

Why quote this? She wasn't dead, she actually was sleeping. You claim the dead are sleeping which this isn't even related to. Typical of those that don't understand the issue to cite this.

Daniel 12:2

Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.

Nope. His body would rest. It is not related to his spirit and soul.

Clearly, there's too much evidence to ignore. When we die, we rest, aka "sleep". It's plain as day. Any scriptures that appear to contradict this fact, are simply being misunderstood.

The misunderstanding is fully on your part. Dead bodies sleeping or resting is not the afterlife where the soul and spirit are fully awake and alert.

And don't forget the most obvious. If we are already spirits, then there's no point in the resurrection.

The resurrection gives the spirit a body again. This is basic knowledge all Christians should know. That you don't understand this shows that you ear lacking knowledge in this subject which is why you errantly believe the dead are asleep.

 

[ewq1938]

So, let's see. Moses talking to Jesus, the souls under the altar and a parable about a rich man. Is that "every single verse"?

That I can recall. Again, every verse that speaks of the soul and spirit and the afterlife shows them awake and alert. There is none that show a soul or spirit to be asleep. Only the body sleeps or rests.

 

[John Davidson]

Secondly, if you are already a spirit, then why would you need to be changed into a spirit upon the resurrection?

It is a glorified body we receive at the resurrection. We have always had a Spirit.

 

[LastSeven]

The resurrection gives the spirit a body again. This is basic knowledge all Christians should know.

If you can show me where scripture supports this notion of the resurrection being a reunification of body and spirit then I'll concede. Until then your "basic knowledge" is nothing more than speculation.

 

[LastSeven]

It is a glorified body we receive at the resurrection. We have always had a Spirit.

That does not answer the question. If we are already a spirit, why do we need to be resurrected? The "spirit", as you believe it, is already immortal is it not? So what do we gain from the resurrection?

 

[LastSeven]

That I can recall. Again, every verse that speaks of the soul and spirit and the afterlife shows them awake and alert. There is none that show a soul or spirit to be asleep. Only the body sleeps or rests.

I never said the soul or spirit sleeps. I said there is no spirit (until after we're resurrected) and we are a soul. We don't have a soul.

 

[ewq1938]

If you can show me where scripture supports this notion of the resurrection being a reunification of body and spirit then I'll concede.

Uh huh...


Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Do you believe the spirit (which you said we don't have) leaves the body at death?

If so, then assuming you believe in a bodily resurrection, then wouldn't that mean the spirit returns to a body?

 

[ewq1938]

I never said the soul or spirit sleeps. I said there is no spirit (until after we're resurrected) and we are a soul. We don't have a soul.

Well the bible says we have a soul, spirit and a body as I have already quoted which you called "a nebulous scripture".

That doesn't change the fact that we have a soul and spirit.

 

[LastSeven]

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ah, yes. Good examples! Now let's look at what it really says. The word translated as "spirit" "pneuma" (Greek) and "ruach" (Hebrew). In both cases, the words mean "breath of God" which is the breath of life. This is the same breath God breathed into Adam which made Adam a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In other words, when James 2:26 says "the body without the spirit is dead", it's simply saying "the body without the breath of God is dead" or even more simply "the body without life is dead". This is such an obvious example (that the body without life is dead) that this is the reason it was used in the analogy that faith without works is dead also, because everybody understands that a body without life is dead.

And when Ecclesiastes 12:7 says "the spirit shall return to God who gave it", it's saying "the breath/life will return to God who gave it". When did he give it" In Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There's another example that you missed, but follows the same pattern. When Jesus "gave up the spirit" on the cross, he was giving up his life. That's why we can say that he literally died. And that's why his resurrection was such a miracle.

If, as you say, his "spirit" simply left his body and then later returned, well that's much less impressive in my book, because that means he never really died. He just went away and came back.

You see when the KJV was translated back in 1611, people understood that "spirit" means "life" and so the word was used, but over the centuries its meaning has changed in popular culture to refer to some kind of ghostly entity, and now confusion abounds. You can see a path to the original meaning of the word in phrases such as "school spirit" and "Christmas spirit", which more closely resemble "life".

Why do you think we refer to God as the "Holy Spirit"? It's because God is life! Not because he's a ghostly entity. He's the Holy Life, and when we are resurrected we will also become "life giving spirits". Life giving, because that's what a spirit is. Life.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

And that is why we can only be spirits after the resurrection. Before we are resurrected, we have no life, so we can certainly not be life.

Do you believe the spirit (which you said we don't have) leaves the body at death?

Not what you imagine the spirit to be, no. How can something we don't have, leave the body? The only thing that leaves the body is the breath of life.

If so, then assuming you believe in a bodily resurrection, then wouldn't that mean the spirit returns to a body?

The breath of life returns to the body yes, but that's not a conscious "spirit" as you imagine it to be. The bodily resurrection means the body is given life again. That's literally the definition of resurrection. The dead come to life. If you're already a living spirit, then you don't need to be resurrected.

 

[John Davidson]

That does not answer the question. If we are already a spirit, why do we need to be resurrected? The "spirit", as you believe it, is already immortal is it not? So what do we gain from the resurrection?

We gain a glorified body. Our spirit is reunited with our body at the resurrection.

 

[John Davidson]

The evidence is seen in the life of Christ. When Jesus was crucified he gave up his spirit and descended into hell where he preached to the spirits in prison. Then on the third day his spirit was reunited with a glorified body.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The evidence is seen in the life of Christ. When Jesus was crucified he gave up his spirit and descended into hell where he preached to the spirits in prison. Then on the third day his spirit was reunited with a glorified body.

Exactly. "The firstborn of many brethren".

 

[LastSeven]

We gain a glorified body. Our spirit is reunited with our body at the resurrection.

We gain a glorified body yes, but the Bible doesn't say that "our spirit is reunited with our body" at the resurrection. It just doesn't say that.

Paul said that the new body is a spiritual body. That means it's not physical. So, if we already have spiritual bodies, as you say, then why would these spiritual bodies return to the physical bodies? What would we gain, as spirits, to join with the physical? Sounds like a downgrade to me.

I think what may be confusing you is the term "body". You probably assume a body to be physical, but Paul tells us that there are also "heavenly bodies". He then goes on to say that we will receive those bodies upon the resurrection. The heavenly / spiritual bodies. Nowhere does he even hint at two different bodies (a spiritual and a physical) joining together or being reunited. He only says that we are born with one, and will be raised with the other. Born physical, raised spiritual. That's literally what he says.

1 Corinthians 15
There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

Paul makes a clear distinction between the natural body and the spiritual body. The earthly body and the heavenly body. If, as you say, we already have spiritual / heavenly bodies then we are already "the second man" and we are already "heavenly bodies" and there's no need for the resurrection.

Besides, if we simply go on living as spirits when we "die" then we don't really die at all. And if we don't die, we don't need to be resurrected. And if we don't die, then that means Jesus didn't die either. And if he didn't die, then he wasn't resurrected either. So if you believe that we go on living after "death" then what does that do to our faith and our belief in the resurrection?

But 1 Peter 3:18 says "He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit". Died physically, raised spiritually. There's no indication here that he had body a physical body and a spiritual body that separated and were reunited. No. It simply says he died physically, and he was resurrected spiritually.

The author of Ecclesiastes tells us that we are no different than the animals in this regard. When we die, we return to the dust. Nothing more, until the resurrection.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

I know it's hard to let go of something you've believed all your life and something that everybody seems to believe and something that has always made so much sense to you, but I think if you're honest and you start with a clean slate (ignore what you've always believed) and just read what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15, you'll see that what Paul is describing as the resurrection and the resurrection body is not the same thing that you've always believed.

I used to believe what you believe. Of course. Everybody is taught that from the time they're a small child. Why wouldn't I believe it? It was about a year ago that I realized scripture does not actually teach that. All I had to do was sit down with an open mind, pull all the related verses together and compare them side by side and see what the evidence was pointing at. I encourage you to do the same. Do a thorough Bible study on the matter, but do so with an open mind wanting only to know the truth.

Turns out, that although there were (and still are) a few verses that are hard to reconcile, the evidence was too overwhelming to ignore. So I realized I had to choose between believing a few nebulous, hard to reconcile, verses which seem to indicate that we do have spirits that separate from the body, and the far more numerous verses that clearly indicate that we do not have spirits that separate from the body.

I can't easily (or even convincingly) explain every single related verse on this matter, but the evidence is clearly weighed more heavily on one side than the other.

 

[LastSeven]

The evidence is seen in the life of Christ. When Jesus was crucified he gave up his spirit and descended into hell where he preached to the spirits in prison. Then on the third day his spirit was reunited with a glorified body.

The "spirit" he gave up was his breath of life. That's what spirit literally means. Breath of life / breath of God.

Besides if he simply left his physical body behind, then the phrase "gave up the spirit" wouldn't make sense. If he's leaving his body, then he's giving up his body, not his spirit. The fact that it says he gave up the spirit means that "he" refers to the physical body, and something is leaving that physical body, but that something can not be himself because "he" is the physical body. If as you believe "he" is the ghostly spirit, then he is not giving up anything. He is leaving something behind. So the wording itself betrays the fallacy of this belief.

He also did not descend into hell and preach to the spirits in prison. Rather, he entered the realm of the dead by being dead (going to hades is the state of death, in the same way that "going to sleep" is the state of slumber) and his resurrection in itself was a proclamation to all those who died before him of his deity and sacrifice, saying that even those who died before him, if they believed in the word of God, have salvation in Him. They were "imprisoned" in the sense that they had no hope of salvation until then, but now they too will see salvation at the resurrection.

 

[John Davidson]

Besides, if we simply go on living as spirits when we "die" then we don't really die at all. And if we don't die, we don't need to be resurrected. And if we don't die, then that means Jesus didn't die either. And if he didn't die, then he wasn't resurrected either. So if you believe that we go on living after "death" then what does that do to our faith and our belief in the resurrection?

And this is why Jesus said that those who believe in him shall never taste of death.

Of course we need to be resurrected so that our spirits can be with our bodies.

 

[LastSeven]

And this is why Jesus said that those who believe in him shall never taste of death.

He was speaking of the second death.

Of course we need to be resurrected so that our spirits can be with our bodies.

And why would our spirits need to be with our bodies? Why not just live as spirits?