Responsibility - not Christian. Torture, the mark of the Lord?

[TheReasoner]

Obama quoted Luke 12:48 recently, which says "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

In a time when representatives from the two parties vie for attention and votes this is one of the more sensible things that have been said. Even so the conservative pseudo-christians over there seem to think Luke is apparently only meant figuratively. Obama sure has gotten an earful for his quote. No, the Republicans claim, responsibility is not financial. My money is my money!. The sacrosanct nature of money is apparently more important than the words of the God they claim to worship. Indeed it would appear even the general attitude and life of Christ is completely unimportant to these 'people' with an elephant stamped on their party banners. Newt Gingrich is a catholic, but even though the vatican has criticized the republican financial policies very harshly he refuses to acknowledge that it has, ever running the same old policy. In addition to that he claims to be all for the 'sanctity of marriage' and 'christian family values', while he himself has divorced two women when those women needed him the most. At their most vulnerable he skiddadled out of the respective marriages. Hence I do not think it is even remotely far off to brand the man a hypocrite in full. In addition both Gingrich and Romney have openly endorsed bringing torture back as a legitimate means of interrogation. Not only is this what I would consider directly opposite Christ's values and teachings it is also outright idiotic in the extreme. It's not like torture has not been tried before and yes. It does produce confessions. We have proof in the form of such confessions of women flying broomsticks to witch meetings, or having sexual intercourse with the devil, stealing milk from farmers by magical means and causing diseases, eating babies and more of the sort. Things which never happened at all, intermingled with some things that did. This is essentially what these people want back. Of course, Romney has also displayed the extreme strategical sense to openly state that war with Iran might indeed be a course of action, despite the US being in severe financial trouble after the last two wars. Not to mention the slight problem telling your enemy who very well might have WMDs that 'hey, we'll attack you'. Smart, Romney. Very smart. You could teach both Machiavelli and Sun tzu a thing or two, and no mistake. *facepalm*. Indeed among the republicans only Ron Paul appears to have compassion, and when he quoted the bible (specifically the golden rule) he too was booed by the conservatives for doing so.

All this leaves me wondering, where is the Christ in American conservative christianity? All I see is threats, social darwinism, violence, fear and hatred. And this is labelled 'christian'. When someone actually comes along and suggests 'hey, let's try to do what Jesus Himself preached' these Christians™ turn around and go bananas. Because noooo... To suggest that responsibility and compassion are christian values is apparently anti-christian. Compassion it would seem should be reserved for people who don't need it. White, middle class, christian conservative americans with jobs, decent bank accounts, stable marriages and no criminal records.

In the states it is apparently OK for Christians™ to endorse torture, war and the death penalty, in fact at times it is not OK for Christians™ to NOT support these things, and when someone, like saaaay Obama quotes Jesus on some issue pertaining to helping out a little this is apparently perfectly OK to bash. Because, it would appear, the Republicans think Jesus' words concerning issues pertaining to such were not meant to be taken literally, only figuratively.

Man, more and more I am reminded of Matthew 25 when I look across the ocean at the US. They sure do cry 'lord lord' a lot. And then turn around endorsing abominable acts in jesus' name! No, the loudest christians over there are further from christ than even some people I have met who are self proclaimed devil worshippers; Even said people would not endorse torture.

 

[heymikey80]

"But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Wow. I didn't know Jesus was expecting Obama to become His prison guard and judge over such people.

How much has Obama been entrusted with? Should the government then come up with some form of punishment for indebting little children $13 every day of his administration, above & beyond the taxes he's imposed on their parents?

I would have to point out to you, no one here would even think of holding the President accountable in such a "moralistic" fashion. It's not allowed, by and large.

I would point out to the contrary, the government is not entrusted with the punishment of people who have rightfully earned their property.

As for providing services, government here is not trustworthy. It does not deliver on any promises to the poor, and it rarely engages in protection of anyone, while it takes money from everyone. An attempt to change the monopoly of government hypocrisy flatly meets with failure. If you were to demand the government cut loose its vacuous promises, then like the Tea Party was, you'd be shouted down by a thousand special interests. If you were to demand the government fulfill its vacuous promises, then like OWS you'd have to rob everything from everyone, and you still wouldn't have enough to make it happen.

No, here government is involved in protection of a rather large land mass; employment of numerous people who either are part of the military or who engage in the reduction of productivity in its economy; and backing off its promises by delay and ignorance and outright neglect of people who do have legitimate claims, apparently in the hopes that they'll die before they get retirement or medical retirement or just simply medical benefits.

No, the government is not reliable here. They don't grant benefits. They make up euphemistic words that mean nothing. Or they outright lie.

 

[Sketcher]

All this leaves me wondering, where is the Christ in American conservative christianity?

I'd say Ron Paul lines up best with him among the candidates.

When someone actually comes along and suggests 'hey, let's try to do what Jesus Himself preached' these Christians™ turn around and go bananas.

Such as?

Compassion it would seem should be reserved for people who don't need it. White, middle class, christian conservative americans with jobs, decent bank accounts, stable marriages and no criminal records.

Class warfare isn't Christian.

In the states it is apparently OK for Christians™ to endorse torture, war and the death penalty

Paul himself endorsed the death penalty (Romans 12:3-4). He also endorsed grace.

when someone, like saaaay Obama quotes Jesus on some issue pertaining to helping out a little this is apparently perfectly OK to bash. Because, it would appear, the Republicans think Jesus' words concerning issues pertaining to such were not meant to be taken literally, only figuratively.

Or because they don't read leftist doctrine into Jesus' words. And rightly so. He didn't preach any kind of socialism.

They sure do cry 'lord lord' a lot. And then turn around endorsing abominable acts in jesus' name! No, the loudest christians over there are further from christ than even some people I have met who are self proclaimed devil worshippers; Even said people would not endorse torture.

I am unaware of anyone in America who endorses torture in Jesus' name. There are people who will endorse it in the name of other things, but I don't know of anyone who does it in Jesus' name.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

I've rarely seen Christianity or the Gospel used on the political front in a way that isn't hypocritical and manipulative. This is why separation of church and state exists. Because religion is confusing, and branches into thousands of interpretations and in the end even people who share that faith won't be convinced even with a verbatim quote from the Bible. You've seen two Republican here, neither of which were willing to address the direct quote, and instead went around it, deliberately brushing off the fact that the Bible violates one of their primary view. Religion in general is typically used less as a guide to how to live ones life and more as a justification for how people WANT to live, and with a book as expansive as the Bible, you're bound to violate some parts of it for the sake of living how you want too.

My favorite response so far: "Well what gives him the right to judge us!" A very ironic stance given that Christianity is used by EVERYONE to judge others. There's a reason things like abortion, gay marriage, the death penalty, and "In God We Trust" are such heated debates, and it all falls back on people using their faiths to judge others and virtually nothing else. Nothing truly scientific. People will specifically search for scientific reasons to try to justify what they already believe, but they never search genuinely. They already think they're right, and it is primarily through the concept of faith. And in the United States, it's primarily Christianity that leads these crusades.

 

[Harpuia]

I am for war in the purpose that we have to defend ourselves. I supported the Afghanistan occupation to a point but not really Iraq. I do feel like if Iran leaves us cornered with no other choice then we will have no choice but to go to war with them, but right now, I really don't see a purpose when Israel is doing just fine by themselves.

That being said, I do support war when we are cornered with no other choice than to fight.

What I don't understand are those that want to war for the sake of war, because they think it's cool or they hate another country so they want to take care of those "towelheads" or whatever slur they want to throw at whoever we fight at the time. It shows arrogance and makes us have too many enemies, which is why we are where we are now.

Those Christians that keep thinking that they are right though don't need scientific evidence to back it up. If they find it, they can shove it in your face. If they don't, they can say that they are "Satanic". It is their 'divine right' to do whatever they please to whoever they please because Jesus said so. And it's that arrogant attitude that I would loooooooove tempered so badly.

That's why I said earlier we need a President that will put the FEAR OF GOD into the Religious Right. We need someone who is willing to bluff and make insane proposals that would never pass through Congress just to keep them in check the way the Tea Party has kept liberals in check for years. I would completely disagree with the bills, but I would understand the purpose if the purpose was to completely bluff and scare people who have had it made for decades and don't know what it's like to face a force that is equal or stronger than them in this country.

 

[heymikey80]

IYou've seen two Republican here, neither of which were willing to address the direct quote, and instead went around it, deliberately brushing off the fact that the Bible violates one of their primary view.

Another wild accusation from the liberal left.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus didn't call on the government of His day to take these guys to task.

He's warning people of judgment from God on this issue. To them. Regarding their handling of what God gives them.

Not a judgment from some politician trying to get enough votes for another term.

We have a joke here. How do you tell when a politician's lying?

His lips are moving.

So someone expects a liar to make just judgments.

Don't press that argument very far. It's shredded pretty quickly.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

Another wild accusation from the liberal left.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus didn't call on the government of His day to take these guys to task.

He's warning people of judgment from God on this issue. To them. Regarding their handling of what God gives them.

Not a judgment from some politician trying to get enough votes for another term.

We have a joke here. How do you tell when a politician's lying?

His lips are moving.

So someone expects a liar to make just judgments.

Don't press that argument very far. It's shredded pretty quickly.

That wasn't an accusation at all, wild or otherwise. It was more of an observation.

 

[rambot]

Or because they don't read leftist doctrine into Jesus' words. And rightly so. He didn't preach any kind of socialism.

I'm almost positive this OP is referring to social conservatives and NOT economic system conservatives.


I am unaware of anyone in America who endorses torture in Jesus' name. There are people who will endorse it in the name of other things, but I don't know of anyone who does it in Jesus' name.[/quote]
A Christian should be doing all things in Jesus' name and for his praise.

 

[Sketcher]

A Christian should be doing all things in Jesus' name and for his praise.

Agreed, and therefore, a Christian shouldn't be calling for torture. See, that's not hard.

 

[stamperben]

Class warfare isn't Christian.

Class warfare is always better waged by those who hold power, power in this case equaling money and resources. It is tiring to constantly continue to hear of "class warfare" being waged by the underclass. Now if you are speaking of "Class struggle" that is a totally different matter. Please learn the difference.

Or because they don't read leftist doctrine into Jesus' words. And rightly so. He didn't preach any kind of socialism.

Show me the verses that have Jesus preaching unfettered capitalism then. And might His silence on the matter in those days lead us to believe that the Third Person of the Trinity might speak to those who are His today instead? Frankly, I'll take my teaching from His Spirit over what any man has to say on the matter.

 

[Sketcher]

Class warfare is always better waged by those who hold power, power in this case equaling money and resources. It is tiring to constantly continue to hear of "class warfare" being waged by the underclass. Now if you are speaking of "Class struggle" that is a totally different matter. Please learn the difference.

Neither is Christian.

Show me the verses that have Jesus preaching unfettered capitalism then. And might His silence on the matter in those days lead us to believe that the Third Person of the Trinity might speak to those who are His today instead? Frankly, I'll take my teaching from His Spirit over what any man has to say on the matter.

Often people mistake the words of their own minds and passions for the Holy Spirit. That's how cults get started. Many people, to their own eventual ruin, claim that Jesus was a (fill in your political/economic preference here). However, the fact of the matter is that Jesus didn't preach concerning political or economic systems. What he preached was loving God and loving your neighbor, which the government can't make you do or do for you.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Class warfare is always better waged by those who hold power, power in this case equaling money and resources. It is tiring to constantly continue to hear of "class warfare" being waged by the underclass. Now if you are speaking of "Class struggle" that is a totally different matter. Please learn the difference.
Show me the verses that have Jesus preaching unfettered capitalism then.

I'll post the opposite for ya, Stamperben.

You might recall the prophecies regarding the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6 AndI heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
​

This is a Capitalist beast ... but benign in regards to God. In Daniel, one of the four beasts (governments) undergoes profound transformation:

Daniel 7:3-4 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
​

And might His silence on the matter in those days lead us to believe that the Third Person of the Trinity might speak to those who are His today instead? Frankly, I'll take my teaching from His Spirit over what any man has to say on the matter.

Not silent at all on the matter, Stamperben. How's your prophecy?

 

[katherine2001]

Class warfare is always better waged by those who hold power, power in this case equaling money and resources. It is tiring to constantly continue to hear of "class warfare" being waged by the underclass. Now if you are speaking of "Class struggle" that is a totally different matter. Please learn the difference.
Show me the verses that have Jesus preaching unfettered capitalism then. And might His silence on the matter in those days lead us to believe that the Third Person of the Trinity might speak to those who are His today instead? Frankly, I'll take my teaching from His Spirit over what any man has to say on the matter.

I have a feeling that in the new Conservative Bible that the verse where Jesus says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle is missing.

 

[disciple2011]

Obama quoted Luke 12:48 recently, which says "But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

In a time when representatives from the two parties vie for attention and votes this is one of the more sensible things that have been said. Even so the conservative pseudo-christians over there seem to think Luke is apparently only meant figuratively. Obama sure has gotten an earful for his quote. No, the Republicans claim, responsibility is not financial. My money is my money!. The sacrosanct nature of money is apparently more important than the words of the God they claim to worship. Indeed it would appear even the general attitude and life of Christ is completely unimportant to these 'people' with an elephant stamped on their party banners. Newt Gingrich is a catholic, but even though the vatican has criticized the republican financial policies very harshly he refuses to acknowledge that it has, ever running the same old policy. In addition to that he claims to be all for the 'sanctity of marriage' and 'christian family values', while he himself has divorced two women when those women needed him the most. At their most vulnerable he skiddadled out of the respective marriages. Hence I do not think it is even remotely far off to brand the man a hypocrite in full. In addition both Gingrich and Romney have openly endorsed bringing torture back as a legitimate means of interrogation. Not only is this what I would consider directly opposite Christ's values and teachings it is also outright idiotic in the extreme. It's not like torture has not been tried before and yes. It does produce confessions. We have proof in the form of such confessions of women flying broomsticks to witch meetings, or having sexual intercourse with the devil, stealing milk from farmers by magical means and causing diseases, eating babies and more of the sort. Things which never happened at all, intermingled with some things that did. This is essentially what these people want back. Of course, Romney has also displayed the extreme strategical sense to openly state that war with Iran might indeed be a course of action, despite the US being in severe financial trouble after the last two wars. Not to mention the slight problem telling your enemy who very well might have WMDs that 'hey, we'll attack you'. Smart, Romney. Very smart. You could teach both Machiavelli and Sun tzu a thing or two, and no mistake. *facepalm*. Indeed among the republicans only Ron Paul appears to have compassion, and when he quoted the bible (specifically the golden rule) he too was booed by the conservatives for doing so.

All this leaves me wondering, where is the Christ in American conservative christianity? All I see is threats, social darwinism, violence, fear and hatred. And this is labelled 'christian'. When someone actually comes along and suggests 'hey, let's try to do what Jesus Himself preached' these Christians™ turn around and go bananas. Because noooo... To suggest that responsibility and compassion are christian values is apparently anti-christian. Compassion it would seem should be reserved for people who don't need it. White, middle class, christian conservative americans with jobs, decent bank accounts, stable marriages and no criminal records.

In the states it is apparently OK for Christians™ to endorse torture, war and the death penalty, in fact at times it is not OK for Christians™ to NOT support these things, and when someone, like saaaay Obama quotes Jesus on some issue pertaining to helping out a little this is apparently perfectly OK to bash. Because, it would appear, the Republicans think Jesus' words concerning issues pertaining to such were not meant to be taken literally, only figuratively.

Man, more and more I am reminded of Matthew 25 when I look across the ocean at the US. They sure do cry 'lord lord' a lot. And then turn around endorsing abominable acts in jesus' name! No, the loudest christians over there are further from christ than even some people I have met who are self proclaimed devil worshippers; Even said people would not endorse torture.

A president quoting scripture is nothing more than a politician appearing pious to garner support.

If he really was a Christian he would not have killed Bin Laden.

In fact if any Christian is pro-death penalty then said Christian should renounce grace and tell God that he deserves and should receive his rightful punishment, Death.