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I don't have a theory. I have biblical evidence for the fact that God, from eternity past, chose ALL believers for service. That's what Eph 1:4 says.Of course the PROBLEM with your theory that God chose the elect based on knowing they would believe is the BIBLE claims God chose His elect NOT on their works (believing) but ONLY because of His Good Pleasure to show mercy.
The purpose of election is for service. God chooses who He wants to serve Him.The PURPOSE of election is only on God that calleth:
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
It is NOT of man that willeth or runneth.. but of GOD alone
The very next verse says specifically who is drawn to Jesus. Those who "listen and learn from the Father".Rom 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
It is a GIFT of God (not of man's works) so none can boast
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
NO MAN can come to Christ (unless God "draws" them)
Joh 6:44
NO MAN can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
In fact, when Jesus' disciples realized He was teaching salvation by ELECTION many of His disciples immediately abandoned Him.[John 6:65-66]
Here are the 2 verses:
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
So, please show me the exact words that Jesus taught "salvation by ELECTION". I'm NOT seeing it.
After doing that, please study these 2 verses in the same context:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
So, please explain how this choosing (election) is to salvation regarding Judas.
Ask the second soil? But you don't have to ask. Jesus tells us why it did.Now... why in the world would anyone abandon the Son of God?
This doesn't describe the second soil at all. Not even close.Of course the answer is obvious. They (like most men today)
did not want a salvation plan where God is Sovereign and saves
who HE ELECTS (with no regard to their actions).
This would be those who never believed in Christ for salvation. They think they are able to meet God's requirement for entering heaven.Instead, they wanted a salvation plan where MAN is Sovereign and chooses
when/where/how he will save himself.
You were doing ok until you said "believing in Jesus". That is the EXACT answer Paul gave to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be saved.Any gospel that says MAN can save himself by saying a sinner's
prayer, or making an altar call, or receiving water baptism, or
repenting, or "accepting" Jesus or "believing in Jesus" is only
a "works gospel".
So your problem is with Paul, not me. You don't like Paul's response. I, however, agree with Paul's answer.
Please quote any verse that says this.And God has made it very clear that any (real) repentance is the RESULT (not the cause) of regeneration.
Why do you equate believing in Jesus as "work"? That is absurd. The Bible NEVER indicates that believing is a work that creates a debt or obligation.Just imagine if you can save yourself by "accepting" Jesus or
by "believing" in Jesus... then all those suffering eternal torment
would be so STUPID they did not do the same "work" as you.
No, the Bible NEVER says "salvation is by God's election alone".You could legitimately BOAST about what a good choice you made... but the Bible says salvation is by God's election alone
1 Cor 1:22 says God is pleased to save those who believe. You figure it out.
Salvation is by grace through faith. NO mention of election.so that NO MAN CAN BOAST.
No. The fact is; you are wrong.Either the Scripture is wrong about election or YOU ARE WRONG.
My view is that of Scripture. But since you call my view wrong, you are calling Scripture wrong as well.I am sure the Scripture is not wrong.
Where is the verse that says man is elected to salvation? If there was such a verse, you'd have quoted it already.
I don't have a theory. I have biblical evidence for the fact that God, from eternity past, chose ALL believers for service. That's what Eph 1:4 says.
.
The purpose of election is for service. God chooses who He wants to serve Him..
Why bother quoting me and then ignoring what I post?You said God chose the elect based on knowing they would believe.
You just showed that YOU made that claim. I didn't.Now you move the goalposts and argue a different issue.
So much for your original statement.
.
The purpose of election is NOT stated in this verse. What is stated is that election HAS A PURPOSE. What I have been saying is what the purpose IS; service.I gave you this verse which tells us WHAT the PURPOSE of election is:
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.
Here's what I care about; truth. I hope you actually read all these verses about election, which PROVE that election is to service.If you want to disagree with the Bible... I do not care.
I hope you are not bloviating and really read the verses and take them to heart.I will believe the Bible instead of your opinion.
.
I said:
"The purpose of election is for service. God chooses who He wants to serve Him.."
The purpose of election is NOT stated in this verse. What is stated is that election HAS A PURPOSE. What I have been saying is what the purpose IS; service.
I'm surprised that you haven't bothered asking me for evidence for my claim. So I'm going to just show you from Scripture. You are free to do with it what you want.
Paul was elected to service:
Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.
Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’
Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.
Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.
Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me
Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.
1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.
Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man
Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15
1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.
1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.
2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,
2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.
Not only Paul considered his experience on the road to Damascus as an election, but Luke's account of what the Lord told Ananias proves it in Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.
btw, in political elections, those who win are said to be appointed to office. And the Bible uses the same wording.
Here's what I care about; truth. I hope you actually read all these verses about election, which PROVE that election is to service.
I hope you are not bloviating and really read the verses and take them to heart.
I proved what the purpose of election is: it's for service. Didn't you read all the verses relating to Paul's election? I gave you 23 verses.Yes, we all know we are commanded to preach during the
Great Commission... but that was NOT the question.
The question was simple: What is the PURPOSE of election?
It doesn't "show we are commanded..". It shows we are chosen for service.Showing we are commanded to preach does NOT answer that.
So, what is the purpose in this verse? Specfically. And saying God is the One who elects isn't the purpose of election.But Romans 9:11 gives God's answer:
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil, that
the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
.
Matthew 7:21-23
What this is teaching is that casting out devils, doing many wonderful works, prophesying, etc, is not enough to get you saved. You need to do even more wonderful works than those people who went to hell. You need to cast out even more devils than those people. You need to prophesy even more. So good luck with that.
Matthew 7:21-23
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
What this is teaching is that casting out devils, doing many wonderful works, prophesying, etc, is not enough to get you saved. You need to do even more wonderful works than those people who went to hell. You need to cast out even more devils than those people. You need to prophesy even more. So good luck with that.
That is why they were cast out.
You have ignored the context. The crowd in 7:21-23 are not believers. They are religious people only. They think they will get into heaven by what they do. There is no mention of believing in Christ. In fact, Jesus said to them, "I NEVER knew you." He could not have said that to anyone who HAD believed in Him.Jesus said,
“And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:23).
Obviously a person who still commits grievous sin and thinks their future sin is forgiven them is still working iniquity.
No, Ezek 18:24 didn't play a part in what Jesus told the crowd in Matt 7:21-23.To all:
Ezekiel 18:24 may shed possible light on Jesus's words when He says, "I never knew you." in Matthew 7:23.
Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous person does iniquity (sin), all their previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing God associates with the righteous, he will no longer remember them anymore. It will be as if He... never knew them. For there is nothing to remember because no previous righteousness exists anymore.
It is worth taking note that the reason why Jesus told them to depart from Him was not because they did many wonderful works, but it was because they worked iniquity (sin).
Jesus would tell EVERYONE who NEVER believed in Him for salvation that He NEVER knew them."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).
The issue is never about people falling away. Of course many have. The Bible clearly acknowledges that. Even Jesus did, with the second soil, in Luke 8:13.Even if Ezekiel 18:24 was not a proper explanation on Matthew 7:23, this does not mean that the Bible does not teach elsewhere that a believer can fall away in other instances (Please see the following list of verses).
Believing in anything other than Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as revealed in the Bible, for salvation is NOT a "believer" in the biblical sense. They are religious, yes. But believer, NOT. And such are unsaved.In Matthew 7:23, I believe these are believers but they believed in a wrong version of Jesus in that they thought they could sin and still be saved. Whether they always believed that way is unclear.
No it doesn't. Satan can do miracles. Aren't you aware that the Tribulational beast (false prophet) will deceive many by performing miracles?But they cast out demons in His name. This means they believed in Jesus.
Then don't call them believers. The Bible uses the word 'believer' ONLY for those who have placed their trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, and are saved.It is just not the same Jesus as described in the Bible.
Actually, there are NO verses in the Bible that warn of loss of salvation, for any reason.To all:
Some want to keep on arguing for how we can sin and still be saved, but search the Scriptures for yourselves. You will not see any teaching in the New Testament about how you can abide in unconfessed grievous sin and still be saved.
The context for Matt 5 is the Millennium. The Lord will be judge of the "spirit of the law", rather than the "letter of the law".Our Lord Jesus warned about how even just the sin of lusting after a woman can cause one's body to be cast into hellfire. Jesus did not say this as a part of some ultimate sermon or point about how you cannot obey God (See: Matthew 5:28-30).
The fact that they worked miracles in his name did not mean anything if they justified sin or iniquity.
Exactly. That's what I was saying. If those people in Matthew 7 were perfect and never had committed any sin in their whole life, they would have gone to heaven. But's being perfect is not humanly possible. That's why we need to trust in Christ alone and not our own good works or lifestyle.
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