It is true... they have.Very well said!
But, let's not forget that some Rabbinic Jews come here and actually understand and stick up for mainstream MJism and Christianity against the radicals. Odd, but true.
We must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?But, let's not forget that some Rabbinic Jews come here and actually understand and stick up for mainstream MJism and Christianity against the radicals. Odd, but true.
I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?Standards for Messianic Jewish congregations and chavurot
All congregations and chavurot that seek membership in the UMJC shall commit themselves to the following standards:
- We believe the Bible is the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of G-d.
- We believe that there is one G-d, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
- We believe in the deity of the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
- We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
- We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the believer is enabled to live a godly life.
- We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
- We believe in the spiritual unity of all believers in the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah.
- We believe in the process of discipline and conflict resolution taught in Matthew 18:15ff, as applicable to all congregants and leaders.
- As Jewish followers of Yeshua, we are called to maintain our Jewish biblical heritage and remain a part of our people Israel and the universal body of believers. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of G-d.
Very well said!
But, let's not forget that some Rabbinic Jews come here and actually understand and stick up for mainstream MJism and Christianity against the radicals. Odd, but true.
I will need your clarificationWe must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?
The most vocal in here have said the most hateful things to and about Messiaic Jews and Gentiles here, and in other forums. Maybe you can ignore it, but I won't. It's a double standard and quite full of hypocracy. And they have a one law gentile following here which they use as pawns. Many have been wooed to their lair over the years. We are now in the process of seeing another one who was a charismatic Christian enter here in a haze of confusion, embrace the one law heresy and now appears to be completing the journey into Rabbinical Judaism. They appear only to have to get them to understand Jesus was just a man and not God and they will fit right nice in the slot they are preparing for them. I've seen it done numerous times by the same group.
You're actually stating that there are non-belieiving Jews in this forum who understand and stick up for mainstream MJism. Please enlighten me to them so I may enjoy their presence here. Sticking up for the division between a Jew and a Christian is NOT sticking up for mainstream MJism in my understanding, Contra. As the most frequent argument they present is Messianic Jews are NOT Jews but Christians.
I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?
I've seen quite the opposite. They actively argue, fight, and teach against most of what is listed in the 9 points. What they don't fight against has no bearing on them anyway. But the fact remains, I've seen nothing but 'apologetics' from them in a 'congregational' forum. And again, why is THIS forum the only forum where 'non-believers' are allowed to counter the mainstream tenents of our faith?
So, what do you think it would look like and happen if the UMJC allowed non-belivers to participate from 'within' the congregation? Which is what is happening here. As a pastor i'm stunned that you even consider such a thing. Even the ringleader who has his own forum does not allow his 'areana' to be dominated by 'Messianics'. Though they come here and dominate a congregational forum. And you seem to authorize their use against 'the radicals'?
Help me contra, your the only one left here (outside of easyG) that I respect. Please help me understand your pov. I'm not mad at you, i'm dismayed at the hypocracy of it all. And I have never found you a hypocrite.
Easy G (G²);58600064 said:I've noticed myself that it seems much of what is often becoming accepted by some circles of Messianic Judaism is essentially what occurs when one inevitably accepts full-blow Judaism--and I've heard many accounts of many who started to allow many Non-Messianic Jewish rabbis/indivuals have more say than necessary in Messianic affairs...and in the end, what people were giving ear to was essentially things that Jesus Himself never approved of and eventually got killed for when he went against many of the domiant views of the various camps in JUDAISm of HIS Day.
And me.Easy G (G²);58600064 said:I have also witnessed where it seems there's often more of a shredding of one another rather than actually dealing with what each other say on issues....in the name of love for the Lord or defenses of truth. That has always seemed highly odd to me...
I've had a love hate relationship with Derek over the years. But recently I have really enjoyed his blogs. And, I agree that his teaching on this subject are well layed out. I've been enjoying his Torah and the New Testament series. Though as most, you have to purchase his books to get the meat. But overall I appreciate Rabbi Leman.Easy G (G²);58600064 said:The variations are intriguing. Thankfully, however, there have been many good articles on the issue that can/do provide clarity. For more info that may be intriguing to you:
The ones by Rabbi Derek Leman of "Messianic Jewish Musings" are some of the best I've seen on the issue of how One-Law plays out and how it is not often as accurate (or beneficial/true to the Jewish mindset) as many may make it out to be. And John McKee of "TWO House Network" has been a big blessing to me in the ways he tackles controversial issues such as One Law
- [PDF] One Law for All
Outside of that, thanks again for sharing
HC and MJ used to be synonomous at one time. A Jew who placed faith in Yeshua. In fact, they are synonomous in meaning, literally. But not any longer, theologically. There have been Messianic Jews since Yeshua (before if you want to include 'the host of faithful (heb 11) ), and on into the 5th century, according to Rabbi Leman. In the 1800's the term Hebrew Christian arose because the Jews who had entered the Church were given the freedom through the revivals to again embrace their Judaism, from within the Church. This is the point most anti-missionaries like to identify at the 'beginning' of MJ, but they are wrong. After 1948/67 Hebrew Christians started moving back to their roots and began identifying as MJ 'again'.Easy G (G²);58600091 said:For myself, as I often seen no difference between Hebrew CHristianity and Messianic Judaism, there are many things that are often fought over for the sake of distinction that may be arbitrary at times...
I feel that I need to be more clear, in the event that what I noted to you is taken the wrong way.
And me.
I'm glad for the fact that at least there's good meat that can be found on his website if keeping up fully and seeing his articles...even though the books would perhaps be more substantive. His series on the New Testament is one I'll have to investigate...had a love hate relationship with Derek over the years. But recently I have really enjoyed his blogs. And, I agree that his teaching on this subject are well layed out. I've been enjoying his Torah and the New Testament series. Though as most, you have to purchase his books to get the meat. But overall I appreciate Rabbi Leman.
Much love to you as well, Bruh..Thanks for your input brother, always needed and well appreciated
Todah rabah achotiIt's not you who needs to apologize, Ani, but your words are greatly appreciated. It is posters such as yourself that make this place worth
coming to.
We've been through this before, and I'm sure unfortunately we'll go through it again. I have no intentions of leaving; however such a decision may not be solely up to me.
May G-d bless you and yours, Ani. You are the true spirit of what this forum should be all about.
If I get booted on account of this poster (and the chances are high), you should know how to contact me. Get a hold of ChavaK, yedida, Dena and several others here. You're free to engage somewhere that doesn't kick you off for discussion and will challenge you with arguments rather than with force. I've missed everyone the past month, but it's really not worth being here if I have to fight just to get someone to come down off my back and stop biting me. Backbiting is a waste of energy, and we could be having "fellowship" (as is the goal of this forum) instead of having to defend ourselves against personal attacks.
If you miss me after I've been forcibly removed, you can ask around and get in contact with me.
HC and MJ used to be synonomous at one time. A Jew who placed faith in Yeshua. In fact, they are synonomous in meaning, literally. But not any longer, theologically. There have been Messianic Jews since Yeshua (before if you want to include 'the host of faithful (heb 11) ), and on into the 5th century, according to Rabbi Leman. In the 1800's the term Hebrew Christian arose because the Jews who had entered the Church were given the freedom through the revivals to again embrace their Judaism, from within the Church. This is the point most anti-missionaries like to identify at the 'beginning' of MJ, but they are wrong. After 1948/67 Hebrew Christians started moving back to their roots and began identifying as MJ 'again'.
.
Easy G (G²);58324182 said:There definately is a tendency amongst many to feel that there's never any room for criticism on anything done within the Messianic movment.....and yet honestly, I wonder how there could ever really be a systematic theology that would be the basis for all within Messianic Judaism---as it'd seem to akin to trying to have a monolithic view within Judaism when there are already seperate streams of thought withith Judaism...and each one with their own interpretation of the Torah. With Messianic Judaism, there are definately practices/ideologies within the camp that can be healthy while others can be damaging to others..and there'll also others who are very balanced as it concerns examining what Judaism was about historically and processing how Jews/Gentiles were meant to interact with one another harmoniously as the Lord intended
When it comes to the Messianic Jewish movement, one of the main concerns I've often seen is how many feel that the actual concept of being a Messianic Jew didn't necessarily begin 30 to 40yrs ago. For although the basis was laid for the groundwork of the Modern Messianic Movement, there were others who felt that its inception was not necessarily the beginnings of Jews coming to the Messiah. Additionally, many feel that there were always other groups within the world of Christendom that were very supportative toward others practicing their Jewishness...and reaching others in Jewish communities that felt cut off. It was often thought that only the Messianic Jewish Alliance (MJAA ) was capable of providing Jewish space, to be part of the Jewish community...and in some ways, one can consider them to be a pioneer coming from Hebrew Christian Alliance to MJAA. What modern Messianic Judaism did was freeze the elements of Hebrew Christianity and went into a direction that Hebrew Christianity hasn't..... and when I say "freeze", the term "freeze" is said in the sense of "framing" (like framinng a picture or looking at a powerpoint and freezing a slide of a person/place and taking time to explain it as you also discuss how you may wish to be different than they in your overall presentation)...and in that sense, MJAA in many ways framed what occurred with Hebrew Christianity and decided to go in a differing direction with where its predecessors went since they felt that something else was needed, even though Hebrew Christianity continued on its path to be effective/make grounds where they saw it was necessary. Like Two differing strains/breeds of the same species on differing evolutionary tracks/branches, they may've diverged......and yet, on many things, they still overlap. One may say that their goal is to reach a community in a distinct way, even if/when the other side may've been doing that already or in a way parallel to what the other was doing. One may say that they're different than another, even though there are times when development of the movement ends up giving room to new variations within a camp that're similar to what occurs in the other..
However, with MJAA, there later came fringe groups that wanted to move in different directions as well...and though many in the MJAA do not associate with or acknowledge those groups, the ties seem to remain present in differing ways. It seems like One law groups and other fringe groups either came from the pioneering groups or were a complete start up. And the camp has been very diverse ever since. MJAA was never the only version of Messianic Judaism within the modern movement---as there were other alliances/groups...and within that, there were sub-groups as well, some good and others bad and some on the fringes. It was never the case, for example, that the MJAA has not had to deal with schisms within their camp..as it is a mixed bag. There are groups associated with MJAA that were/are One Law to a certain extent, and that have been there for a while, just as there are also groups opposed to it, all under the same banner. And there are groups of Messianic Jews who felt that Two House theory was proper...but because the MJAA had a strong stance against it, splits occurred and things diverged even further. Some camps didn't come out against it, but they did alter their views a bit. Some are for "Bilateral Ecclesiology" or "Divine Invitation" (as is the organization of "First Fruits of Zion"), whereas others are not. Others may disagree...but I'd argue that its best to see Modern Messianic Judaism as a denominational-esq movement....for the amount of fighting that often happens amongst Messianics is very similar to what occurs when differing denominations have civil wars within Christendom. As long as there are variations within the Modern Messianic Judaism movement, it'll always be difficult to nail down fully. In many ways, the dynamics of how the Modern Messianic Judaism movement acts is similar to many other movements/their variations---be it the Emergent/Emerging camps or the Charismatic camp and all of its branches. Sometimes, asking what Messianic Judaism looks like is akin to trying to write about the shape of ocean waves. There are a lot of them, they are changing, and they are not all the same...and therefore, one would have to realize there's a degree of complexity when trying to write and analyze a large movement with so many variations within it and do it to the satisfaction of all.
.
The fact is, all this time they were Jews. There was no thing as a 'Messianic Gentile, or a Christian who became a follower of Yeshua by identifying as Jews.
Again, I feel where you're coming from....and I've noted some similar things when it comes to many focusing on everything/anything else other than Yeshua...or making it out as if one is a "Second-Rate" believer because they don't feel the OT Torah must be followed on all points...and effectively treat others in a manner akin to saying "You're technically my brother--but you're not my equal."This came about all to recently, in the past 10 yrs or so it has developed into a full blown sect of MJ. And one I personnaly believe is dividing us more than ever. I mean, what Christian was going to say, I have to follow Torah as a Jew....? Back in the 18oo's. This goes against every Christian tenent there is. That gentiles are not called to follow Torah as Jews when they believe in Jesus. Those who attempted this were immedietly cast out of the fold. Yet today it's the opposite. Because of the emptiness left in the people after attending Chruch they are seeking 'the more', the Truth' the way. And as usual, there are scores of false teachers out there with dayglow illuminated signs saying "Yeshua this way=======>TORAH......Israel.......Judaism.....(add falsehood here). All newbies to the MJ faith, all rejecting the Church, and all quite sure that God has lead them to the truth. Not a one showing the real Messiah according to his Word and the Spirit given us. That reminds us of all he said. So many pointing to the 'teachers' (rabbi's) and never leading us to 'The' Teacher.
I was not going to post further in this thread since it is only for Messianics.
However, the thread has now been derailed and turned into an attack against Jews. It's strayed far from the OP which began as a discussion on Paul.You are not the only one being singled out, Yonah.
I've conversed with other posters here and they are for the most part happy to hear from us. I don't see why it would be an issue to make a correction if someone posts something that is mistaken about Judaism.
Wouldn't they want to know the error? I would welcome someone telling me I held a mistaken belief about them.
I personally have advised someone on this forum to stay a Christian...and I did it more than once. I also posted this on the thread:
[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul" - Christian Forums
In another thread I asked how people could claim Christianity was pagan and that Paul was incorrect in his teachings. I asked how
such statements could be made on a Christian forum and suggested it
was inappropriate. I guess that makes me a missionary some sort
Most people are perfectly aware that Jews do not involve themselves in trying to convert non-Jews to Judaism....and that we actively discourage it.
It's funny because the biggest arguements and disruptions I see on this forum aren't between Jews and Messianics but between Messianics themselves and between Christians and Messianics.
Heber,
You know what respect I have for you and the leadership you exhibit in your position. I remember your leaving and thought it tragic to this forum. I think that we've maintained a great balance here, and that each of our sides is necessary for that balance. Messianics (both Jews and Gentiles in the mix), Non-Messianic Jews and Noahides, Christian leaders and non-Messianic Christians.... the whole mix has created a great forum to share in. I think that if any group disappeared (and some of these groups are represented by only two or three posters), then whole forum would suffer from lack of perspective.
I'm glad that you've come back, and I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through such nonsense. You're, surely, aware that the majority of the posters here (and, let's face it, the posters themselves are the forum community) appreciate you being here and the insight that you have to provide. Don't go anyway.
I also won't leave unless I'm forced out. I appreciate the sharing and support that we give each other, and the calling of one another into our place, as the case necessitates. I think this forum could do without moderators, personally - that we know how to handle ourselves, even if there are those who would kill our conversation and delete our posts, as if we were not already some kind of an online family.
Best wishes upon your return,
YM
yes great idea I will come back if any other posts need an answerSince this thread has been going on for 43 pages and we're starting to repeat ourselves repeat ourselves. Is it time to wrap it up Tish, and move ahead?
What we need to stop is the bashing and campaigning against Paul. Like it or not mainsteam MJ agrees Paul is not trashing Torah in his Letters and so regardless of the arguments to the contrary, to go on and on about how bad Paul is , is off topic and disruptive to the forum. We will be adding it to the MJ SOP only for clarity, as it has been expressed in the congregational rule that teaching contrary to the accepted teaching will be off topic anyway.... but to be clear on the point of Paul we will add it to the SOPI've read through this thread and haven't seen a logical reasoning why Paul is off limits regarding the law. If we can't hold him up to it then we put the 'church fathers' above G-d. Is that where we are at right now?
As far as the not speaking against leaders, I notices that the two minister/priests here are the ones voting for that addition to the rules. Why is that, are you infallible? or are you not just men? Who gave that ruling about not speaking against leaders?
Ex 22:28 does not speak of all that say they are leaders. Also if used in the way it has been in this thread it would revoke Deut 13.
We are explicitly told to inquire, search out, and ask diligently about any one that teaches against Torah.
And if Paul was not teaching against Torah then the whole of Christianity has been wrong for almost 2,000 years.
The argument of MJ is that Paul did not teach against Torah, but that alone goes against Mainstream Christian teachings.
You can't have it both ways.
PS, 'Hinney Binn' and others like him are fluent in the 'Do not speak against G-ds anointed' language. Anytime I heard anyone speaking that language, I don't listen to much else they say. If what they are preaching is truly from G-d it can stand on it's own merit without threats.
I would like to add that this also applies to the anti-Messianic (missionary) Jews who frequent here as well.
Contra, I hope you don't mind, but when you posted this it just rang true in regards to the following. Again, I hope you don't mind that I reworded to my point what you said so well. It applies to both.
Messianic Jews have no problem with Messiah in light of the rest of scripture. The Jews that don't believe in Messiah Yeshua bring prejudices of their own to the argument, and it's just not helpful to have any kind of religious discussion with someone when we can't even agree about what authority we come from. i.e. Yeshua, not Rabbi's (oral Torah).
Sure, there has to be limits. When anti-missionary (and Messiah Yeshua IS our mission here) posters have more rights here than Messianic posters do, I think there is an unfair balance. My experience here over the years here has led me to come to the conclusion that most of the anti-missionaries are teaching in one way or another. Guise it under standing up for orthodox Judaism, correcting (alleged) falsehoods. Which is defined as 'apologetics'. Letting unbelieving rabbinical Jews have free reign to operate apologetics, while stifling Christian apologetics, in a Christian forum Faith group is astoundingly remarkable to witness. And sad. Why should a Messianic Jew or believers be open to slaughter and another, who is teaching via posts and pm's and luring weak sheep to their pen be protected...... Torah in Babylon and Jesus and Matzah are prime examples. Examples of One Law sect proponents, who loath all things Christian and Two House/Sacred Name have thrown the newbie sacred namer messianic under the bus and left him to the dogs of the oral Torah who are free to tear him up and down while staff does what? Shouldn't these debates and differences be handled WITHIN our group not left to non-beleivers in our Lord and GOD? What are they doing here in this capacity in the fist place? AND should not those 'within' our faith group handle Pat34Lee in a loving respectfull way? Not ripping him to shreads? Such Messianic 'Love'.
Why will staff not address this issue? as I have exposed it numerous times throughout the year? Silence and inaction speak volumes. Which only leaves me with the impression that staff approves of this living arrangement here.
I would also like to add in closing, as i'm sure Contra will concur, that Tim Hegg and one law teaching is NOT, I repeat NOT mainstream Messianic Judaism. It seems even staff (Tishri) has made that assumption in this thread, #35 and has a LOT to do with the current state of this forum.
It is NOT balance in any way, and I would never lead someone here for fellowship. As the anti-missionaries do, I would lead them away to other pastures. Only the ones I will lead them to will promote Yeshua, not demote him.
The congregational forums are open to anyone who wants to post in fellowship and ask questions with in reason(if visitors /non members disrupt the forum for the members then that will be looked at) . Only members(those who identify themselves with the mainstream teaching of the group represented) are allowed to teach and debate and cant campaign or promote teaching that is against the accepted mainstream beliefs.We must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?
The most vocal in here have said the most hateful things to and about Messiaic Jews and Gentiles here, and in other forums. Maybe you can ignore it, but I won't. It's a double standard and quite full of hypocracy. And they have a one law gentile following here which they use as pawns. Many have been wooed to their lair over the years. We are now in the process of seeing another one who was a charismatic Christian enter here in a haze of confusion, embrace the one law heresy and now appears to be completing the journey into Rabbinical Judaism. They appear only to have to get them to understand Jesus was just a man and not God and they will fit right nice in the slot they are preparing for them. I've seen it done numerous times by the same group.
You're actually stating that there are non-belieiving Jews in this forum who understand and stick up for mainstream MJism. Please enlighten me to them so I may enjoy their presence here. Sticking up for the division between a Jew and a Christian is NOT sticking up for mainstream MJism in my understanding, Contra. As the most frequent argument they present is Messianic Jews are NOT Jews but Christians.
I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?
I've seen quite the opposite. They actively argue, fight, and teach against most of what is listed in the 9 points. What they don't fight against has no bearing on them anyway. But the fact remains, I've seen nothing but 'apologetics' from them in a 'congregational' forum. And again, why is THIS forum the only forum where 'non-believers' are allowed to counter the mainstream tenents of our faith?
So, what do you think it would look like and happen if the UMJC allowed non-belivers to participate from 'within' the congregation? Which is what is happening here. As a pastor i'm stunned that you even consider such a thing. Even the ringleader who has his own forum does not allow his 'areana' to be dominated by 'Messianics'. Though they come here and dominate a congregational forum. And you seem to authorize their use against 'the radicals'?
Help me contra, your the only one left here (outside of easyG) that I respect. Please help me understand your pov. I'm not mad at you, i'm dismayed at the hypocracy of it all. And I have never found you a hypocrite.
Um sorry guys but your stuck with Mods in this forum and I just want to add Noahides are not MJ (they are not believers)Heber,
You know what respect I have for you and the leadership you exhibit in your position. I remember your leaving and thought it tragic to this forum. I think that we've maintained a great balance here, and that each of our sides is necessary for that balance. Messianics (both Jews and Gentiles in the mix), Non-Messianic Jews and Noahides, Christian leaders and non-Messianic Christians.... the whole mix has created a great forum to share in. I think that if any group disappeared (and some of these groups are represented by only two or three posters), then whole forum would suffer from lack of perspective.
I'm glad that you've come back, and I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through such nonsense. You're, surely, aware that the majority of the posters here (and, let's face it, the posters themselves are the forum community) appreciate you being here and the insight that you have to provide. Don't go anyway.
I also won't leave unless I'm forced out. I appreciate the sharing and support that we give each other, and the calling of one another into our place, as the case necessitates. I think this forum could do without moderators, personally - that we know how to handle ourselves, even if there are those who would kill our conversation and delete our posts, as if we were not already some kind of an online family.
Best wishes upon your return,
YM
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