[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"

I would like to add to the MJ SOP something restricting

  • Campaigns against Paul(Anti Paul)

  • Campaigns against all Leaders

  • Anti Torah campaigns

  • I would not like to add anything and just keep the congregational rule


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Shimshon

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But, let's not forget that some Rabbinic Jews come here and actually understand and stick up for mainstream MJism and Christianity against the radicals. Odd, but true. :)
We must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?

The most vocal in here have said the most hateful things to and about Messiaic Jews and Gentiles here, and in other forums. Maybe you can ignore it, but I won't. It's a double standard and quite full of hypocracy. And they have a one law gentile following here which they use as pawns. Many have been wooed to their lair over the years. We are now in the process of seeing another one who was a charismatic Christian enter here in a haze of confusion, embrace the one law heresy and now appears to be completing the journey into Rabbinical Judaism. They appear only to have to get them to understand Jesus was just a man and not God and they will fit right nice in the slot they are preparing for them. I've seen it done numerous times by the same group.

You're actually stating that there are non-belieiving Jews in this forum who understand and stick up for mainstream MJism. Please enlighten me to them so I may enjoy their presence here. Sticking up for the division between a Jew and a Christian is NOT sticking up for mainstream MJism in my understanding, Contra. As the most frequent argument they present is Messianic Jews are NOT Jews but Christians.

Standards for Messianic Jewish congregations and chavurot



All congregations and chavurot that seek membership in the UMJC shall commit themselves to the following standards:
  1. We believe the Bible is the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of G-d.
  2. We believe that there is one G-d, eternally existent in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
  3. We believe in the deity of the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah, in His virgin birth, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the Father, and in His personal return in power and glory.
  4. We believe that for the salvation of lost and sinful man, regeneration by the Holy Spirit is absolutely essential.
  5. We believe in the present ministry of the Holy Spirit by whose indwelling the believer is enabled to live a godly life.
  6. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life, and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation.
  7. We believe in the spiritual unity of all believers in the L-RD Yeshua, the Messiah.
  8. We believe in the process of discipline and conflict resolution taught in Matthew 18:15ff, as applicable to all congregants and leaders.
  9. As Jewish followers of Yeshua, we are called to maintain our Jewish biblical heritage and remain a part of our people Israel and the universal body of believers. This is part of our identity and a witness to the faithfulness of G-d.
I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?

I've seen quite the opposite. They actively argue, fight, and teach against most of what is listed in the 9 points. What they don't fight against has no bearing on them anyway. But the fact remains, I've seen nothing but 'apologetics' from them in a 'congregational' forum. And again, why is THIS forum the only forum where 'non-believers' are allowed to counter the mainstream tenents of our faith?

So, what do you think it would look like and happen if the UMJC allowed non-belivers to participate from 'within' the congregation? Which is what is happening here. As a pastor i'm stunned that you even consider such a thing. Even the ringleader who has his own forum does not allow his 'areana' to be dominated by 'Messianics'. Though they come here and dominate a congregational forum. And you seem to authorize their use against 'the radicals'?

Help me contra, your the only one left here (outside of easyG) that I respect. Please help me understand your pov. I'm not mad at you, i'm dismayed at the hypocracy of it all. And I have never found you a hypocrite.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Very well said! :thumbsup:

But, let's not forget that some Rabbinic Jews come here and actually understand and stick up for mainstream MJism and Christianity against the radicals. Odd, but true. :)

Its actually interesting to consider how much MJism was considered to be "radical" to many when it first came out---especially as it concerned outreach amongst Jewish believers and finding ways for Jews/Gentiles to work together---and yet, within the camp, the ways that the Messianic Jewish camp is consider radical by others outside of it can be contrasted with those who claim to be Messianic...and yet can be even more "radical" than the whole of the camp they claim membership in.


For myself, as I often seen no difference between Hebrew CHristianity and Messianic Judaism, there are many things that are often fought over for the sake of distinction that may be arbitrary at times...
 
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visionary

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We must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?

The most vocal in here have said the most hateful things to and about Messiaic Jews and Gentiles here, and in other forums. Maybe you can ignore it, but I won't. It's a double standard and quite full of hypocracy. And they have a one law gentile following here which they use as pawns. Many have been wooed to their lair over the years. We are now in the process of seeing another one who was a charismatic Christian enter here in a haze of confusion, embrace the one law heresy and now appears to be completing the journey into Rabbinical Judaism. They appear only to have to get them to understand Jesus was just a man and not God and they will fit right nice in the slot they are preparing for them. I've seen it done numerous times by the same group.

You're actually stating that there are non-belieiving Jews in this forum who understand and stick up for mainstream MJism. Please enlighten me to them so I may enjoy their presence here. Sticking up for the division between a Jew and a Christian is NOT sticking up for mainstream MJism in my understanding, Contra. As the most frequent argument they present is Messianic Jews are NOT Jews but Christians.

I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?

I've seen quite the opposite. They actively argue, fight, and teach against most of what is listed in the 9 points. What they don't fight against has no bearing on them anyway. But the fact remains, I've seen nothing but 'apologetics' from them in a 'congregational' forum. And again, why is THIS forum the only forum where 'non-believers' are allowed to counter the mainstream tenents of our faith?

So, what do you think it would look like and happen if the UMJC allowed non-belivers to participate from 'within' the congregation? Which is what is happening here. As a pastor i'm stunned that you even consider such a thing. Even the ringleader who has his own forum does not allow his 'areana' to be dominated by 'Messianics'. Though they come here and dominate a congregational forum. And you seem to authorize their use against 'the radicals'?

Help me contra, your the only one left here (outside of easyG) that I respect. Please help me understand your pov. I'm not mad at you, i'm dismayed at the hypocracy of it all. And I have never found you a hypocrite.
I will need your clarification

I understood most Jews believe there is two laws .. one for Israelites and the other for other nations.

I understood one law to mean like Paul said... we are all equal..
 
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Shimshon

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Easy G (G²);58600064 said:
I've noticed myself that it seems much of what is often becoming accepted by some circles of Messianic Judaism is essentially what occurs when one inevitably accepts full-blow Judaism--and I've heard many accounts of many who started to allow many Non-Messianic Jewish rabbis/indivuals have more say than necessary in Messianic affairs...and in the end, what people were giving ear to was essentially things that Jesus Himself never approved of and eventually got killed for when he went against many of the domiant views of the various camps in JUDAISm of HIS Day.
:thumbsup:

Easy G (G²);58600064 said:
I have also witnessed where it seems there's often more of a shredding of one another rather than actually dealing with what each other say on issues....in the name of love for the Lord or defenses of truth. That has always seemed highly odd to me...
And me.

Easy G (G²);58600064 said:
The variations are intriguing. Thankfully, however, there have been many good articles on the issue that can/do provide clarity. For more info that may be intriguing to you:

The ones by Rabbi Derek Leman of "Messianic Jewish Musings" are some of the best I've seen on the issue of how One-Law plays out and how it is not often as accurate (or beneficial/true to the Jewish mindset) as many may make it out to be. And John McKee of "TWO House Network" has been a big blessing to me in the ways he tackles controversial issues such as One Law

Outside of that, thanks again for sharing :)
I've had a love hate relationship with Derek over the years. But recently I have really enjoyed his blogs. And, I agree that his teaching on this subject are well layed out. I've been enjoying his Torah and the New Testament series. Though as most, you have to purchase his books to get the meat. But overall I appreciate Rabbi Leman.

Thanks for your input brother, always needed and well appreciated.
 
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anisavta

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That was quite a rant by Shimshon and did not hide his animosity one iota.
It is sad that he wages a one man war against Yonah and at least one other who IMO post more sanity than some of our MJs (in icon only) folk.
I would rather read posts that explain our Hebraic roots via our Hebraic language any day than hateful tirades against our brothers and sisters.
Shame on you Shimshon for posts as you have just written.
 
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Shimshon

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Easy G (G²);58600091 said:
For myself, as I often seen no difference between Hebrew CHristianity and Messianic Judaism, there are many things that are often fought over for the sake of distinction that may be arbitrary at times...
HC and MJ used to be synonomous at one time. A Jew who placed faith in Yeshua. In fact, they are synonomous in meaning, literally. But not any longer, theologically. There have been Messianic Jews since Yeshua (before if you want to include 'the host of faithful (heb 11) ), and on into the 5th century, according to Rabbi Leman. In the 1800's the term Hebrew Christian arose because the Jews who had entered the Church were given the freedom through the revivals to again embrace their Judaism, from within the Church. This is the point most anti-missionaries like to identify at the 'beginning' of MJ, but they are wrong. After 1948/67 Hebrew Christians started moving back to their roots and began identifying as MJ 'again'.

The fact is, all this time they were Jews. There was no thing as a 'Messianic Gentile, or a Christian who became a follower of Yeshua by identifying as Jews. This came about all to recently, in the past 10 yrs or so it has developed into a full blown sect of MJ. And one I personnaly believe is dividing us more than ever. I mean, what Christian was going to say, I have to follow Torah as a Jew....? Back in the 18oo's. This goes against every Christian tenent there is. That gentiles are not called to follow Torah as Jews when they believe in Jesus. Those who attempted this were immedietly cast out of the fold. Yet today it's the opposite. Because of the emptiness left in the people after attending Chruch they are seeking 'the more', the Truth' the way. And as usual, there are scores of false teachers out there with dayglow illuminated signs saying "Yeshua this way=======>TORAH......Israel.......Judaism.....(add falsehood here). All newbies to the MJ faith, all rejecting the Church, and all quite sure that God has lead them to the truth. Not a one showing the real Messiah according to his Word and the Spirit given us. That reminds us of all he said. So many pointing to the 'teachers' (rabbi's) and never leading us to 'The' Teacher.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I feel that I need to be more clear, in the event that what I noted to you is taken the wrong way.

For I do agree with you that many within Messianic Judaism have often allowed other Non-Messianic Jews to have a greater say on what is "Biblical" than necessary..specifically when it seems that many Non-Messianic Jews seem more interested in not really listening/conversing as much as trying to convert others to Judaism...and it can often be the case that those anti-missionary endeavors can occur in subtle ways. There's a difference between having a conversation with someone in a differing faith as yourself and someone trying to bring you to their viewpoint while pretending they're interested in hearing you out---and that is something I've seen/was often warned about by the Messianic Jewish Rabbi with the fellowship I attend at Mivdad & and Congregation Mishkan David. The Messianic Jews at "The Rosh Pina Project" have also noted the same when it comes to what they often see in the Israeli State---as documented here.


However, never for a second am I of the mindset that I'm its somehow a "negative" for those who are Not Messianic Jewish to be able to share their thoughts...for there have been MANY discussions where other Non-Messianic Jews have shared thoughts on discussions and it has been a blessing. Some coming to mind immediately are ones such as Yonah, who has often defended those within Christianity and Messianic Judaism when it comes to things said that don't really reflect what others believe---and even he has taken heat for doing so, despite the fact that he has claimed on multiple occassions that just because he doesn't believe in Jesus doesn't mean that he cannot at least argue for where others don't deal with His words in context....and that has been seen on multiple occassions---as seen here in #14 #17 #28 #30 #83 and here...many other places besides that.


Sister Chavak is another one, seeing how she was one of the indivudals who spoke up in defense of many who often seemed to be denounced by other Messianics simply because they didn't think bashing Paul or Christianity at all times was godly--and for a Non-Messianic to note that is very noteworthy. Of course, I value her for many other reasons besides that when it comes to her insights and thoughts....and though I may disagree with her or Yonah and many others that I can't remember immediately by name, I'm glad that at least we can be respectful of one another.

I'm hoping you didn't have any of them in mind when you wrote some of the things you did---as I'd have to disagree if you'd place them in the same category as being "counter missionaries". I don't expect us to agree on that necessarily, though its cool if we do........but if not, that's where I stand.
:) Glad I'm not the only one..

I've
had a love hate relationship with Derek over the years. But recently I have really enjoyed his blogs. And, I agree that his teaching on this subject are well layed out. I've been enjoying his Torah and the New Testament series. Though as most, you have to purchase his books to get the meat. But overall I appreciate Rabbi Leman.
I'm glad for the fact that at least there's good meat that can be found on his website if keeping up fully and seeing his articles...even though the books would perhaps be more substantive. His series on the New Testament is one I'll have to investigate...


Thanks for your input brother, always needed and well appreciated
Much love to you as well, Bruh..
 
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anisavta

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It's not you who needs to apologize, Ani, but your words are greatly appreciated. It is posters such as yourself that make this place worth
coming to.

We've been through this before, and I'm sure unfortunately we'll go through it again. I have no intentions of leaving; however such a decision may not be solely up to me.

May G-d bless you and yours, Ani. You are the true spirit of what this forum should be all about.
Todah rabah achoti
 
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yedida

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If I get booted on account of this poster (and the chances are high), you should know how to contact me. Get a hold of ChavaK, yedida, Dena and several others here. You're free to engage somewhere that doesn't kick you off for discussion and will challenge you with arguments rather than with force. I've missed everyone the past month, but it's really not worth being here if I have to fight just to get someone to come down off my back and stop biting me. Backbiting is a waste of energy, and we could be having "fellowship" (as is the goal of this forum) instead of having to defend ourselves against personal attacks.

If you miss me after I've been forcibly removed, you can ask around and get in contact with me.

And I as a Gentile get swamped with all kinds of stories that sound cool and informative but are totally false and wrong. You always seem to know where alot of these stories get started and give us better information.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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HC and MJ used to be synonomous at one time. A Jew who placed faith in Yeshua. In fact, they are synonomous in meaning, literally. But not any longer, theologically. There have been Messianic Jews since Yeshua (before if you want to include 'the host of faithful (heb 11) ), and on into the 5th century, according to Rabbi Leman. In the 1800's the term Hebrew Christian arose because the Jews who had entered the Church were given the freedom through the revivals to again embrace their Judaism, from within the Church. This is the point most anti-missionaries like to identify at the 'beginning' of MJ, but they are wrong. After 1948/67 Hebrew Christians started moving back to their roots and began identifying as MJ 'again'.
.

I agree with you when it comes to noting the fact that there have ALWAYS been Messianic Jews since the inception/creation of the Church....and for myself, when seeing how the term "Christian" was used in the Book of Acts, I'm also of the mindset that Jewish believers were also "Messianic" and "Christian" at the same time...

However, I am not for the mindset that its necessarily the case that the terms "Hebrew Christian" and "Messianic" must now be considered different---in light of how there are varities within both and sub-groups within both labels often agree with each other....just as much as there are others that do seperate. Not all "Christianities" are the same, just as not all "Judaisms" or "Messianic Judaisms" are synomous.

I've sought to discuss the issue elsewhere when it comes to groups such as the Ethopian Jews and those who are MESSIANIC yet within the Ethopian Orthodox Church...as seen in the thread entitled Ethopian Orthodoxy vs Eastern Orthodoxy: Which one's closer to 1st Century Judaism?

I've also tried to discuss similar aspects with others in threads such as Messianic Speaks on Justification --specifically posts such as #25 and #30, , #94 /#96 ..and here. As said elsewhere before:
Easy G (G²);58324182 said:
There definately is a tendency amongst many to feel that there's never any room for criticism on anything done within the Messianic movment.....and yet honestly, I wonder how there could ever really be a systematic theology that would be the basis for all within Messianic Judaism---as it'd seem to akin to trying to have a monolithic view within Judaism when there are already seperate streams of thought withith Judaism...and each one with their own interpretation of the Torah. With Messianic Judaism, there are definately practices/ideologies within the camp that can be healthy while others can be damaging to others..and there'll also others who are very balanced as it concerns examining what Judaism was about historically and processing how Jews/Gentiles were meant to interact with one another harmoniously as the Lord intended

When it comes to the Messianic Jewish movement, one of the main concerns I've often seen is how many feel that the actual concept of being a Messianic Jew didn't necessarily begin 30 to 40yrs ago. For although the basis was laid for the groundwork of the Modern Messianic Movement, there were others who felt that its inception was not necessarily the beginnings of Jews coming to the Messiah. Additionally, many feel that there were always other groups within the world of Christendom that were very supportative toward others practicing their Jewishness...and reaching others in Jewish communities that felt cut off. It was often thought that only the Messianic Jewish Alliance (MJAA ) was capable of providing Jewish space, to be part of the Jewish community...and in some ways, one can consider them to be a pioneer coming from Hebrew Christian Alliance to MJAA. What modern Messianic Judaism did was freeze the elements of Hebrew Christianity and went into a direction that Hebrew Christianity hasn't..... and when I say "freeze", the term "freeze" is said in the sense of "framing" (like framinng a picture or looking at a powerpoint and freezing a slide of a person/place and taking time to explain it as you also discuss how you may wish to be different than they in your overall presentation)...and in that sense, MJAA in many ways framed what occurred with Hebrew Christianity and decided to go in a differing direction with where its predecessors went since they felt that something else was needed, even though Hebrew Christianity continued on its path to be effective/make grounds where they saw it was necessary. Like Two differing strains/breeds of the same species on differing evolutionary tracks/branches, they may've diverged......and yet, on many things, they still overlap. One may say that their goal is to reach a community in a distinct way, even if/when the other side may've been doing that already or in a way parallel to what the other was doing. One may say that they're different than another, even though there are times when development of the movement ends up giving room to new variations within a camp that're similar to what occurs in the other..

However, with MJAA, there later came fringe groups that wanted to move in different directions as well...and though many in the MJAA do not associate with or acknowledge those groups, the ties seem to remain present in differing ways. It seems like One law groups and other fringe groups either came from the pioneering groups or were a complete start up. And the camp has been very diverse ever since. MJAA was never the only version of Messianic Judaism within the modern movement---as there were other alliances/groups...and within that, there were sub-groups as well, some good and others bad and some on the fringes. It was never the case, for example, that the MJAA has not had to deal with schisms within their camp..as it is a mixed bag. There are groups associated with MJAA that were/are One Law to a certain extent, and that have been there for a while, just as there are also groups opposed to it, all under the same banner. And there are groups of Messianic Jews who felt that Two House theory was proper...but because the MJAA had a strong stance against it, splits occurred and things diverged even further. Some camps didn't come out against it, but they did alter their views a bit. Some are for "Bilateral Ecclesiology" or "Divine Invitation" (as is the organization of "First Fruits of Zion"), whereas others are not. Others may disagree...but I'd argue that its best to see Modern Messianic Judaism as a denominational-esq movement....for the amount of fighting that often happens amongst Messianics is very similar to what occurs when differing denominations have civil wars within Christendom. As long as there are variations within the Modern Messianic Judaism movement, it'll always be difficult to nail down fully. In many ways, the dynamics of how the Modern Messianic Judaism movement acts is similar to many other movements/their variations---be it the Emergent/Emerging camps or the Charismatic camp and all of its branches. Sometimes, asking what Messianic Judaism looks like is akin to trying to write about the shape of ocean waves. There are a lot of them, they are changing, and they are not all the same...and therefore, one would have to realize there's a degree of complexity when trying to write and analyze a large movement with so many variations within it and do it to the satisfaction of all.

.




Those are my thoughts on the issue....

The fact is, all this time they were Jews. There was no thing as a 'Messianic Gentile, or a Christian who became a follower of Yeshua by identifying as Jews.

I'd argue that there have always been "Messianic Gentiles"...though I'd label them as God-Fearers and the people like Cornelius in Acts 11 or the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8 who displayed faith in the Messiah...and with that, I'd also note that they were not all the same. Some wished to be fully immeshed within the Jewish lifestyle, whereas others supported it but only to a point---yet they were very much supportative of aiding the Jewish people.


Many others come to mind besides that, especially with others like Jethro..the FATHER in Law of Moses or Naman the Syrian (referenced in Luke 4 when Jesus noted how he alone was one who had faith in all of Israel compared to the rest of the Jews...even though he was not even a Hebrew and still trusted in the Lord with his leprosy in II Kings 5).



This came about all to recently, in the past 10 yrs or so it has developed into a full blown sect of MJ. And one I personnaly believe is dividing us more than ever. I mean, what Christian was going to say, I have to follow Torah as a Jew....? Back in the 18oo's. This goes against every Christian tenent there is. That gentiles are not called to follow Torah as Jews when they believe in Jesus. Those who attempted this were immedietly cast out of the fold. Yet today it's the opposite. Because of the emptiness left in the people after attending Chruch they are seeking 'the more', the Truth' the way. And as usual, there are scores of false teachers out there with dayglow illuminated signs saying "Yeshua this way=======>TORAH......Israel.......Judaism.....(add falsehood here). All newbies to the MJ faith, all rejecting the Church, and all quite sure that God has lead them to the truth. Not a one showing the real Messiah according to his Word and the Spirit given us. That reminds us of all he said. So many pointing to the 'teachers' (rabbi's) and never leading us to 'The' Teacher.
Again, I feel where you're coming from....and I've noted some similar things when it comes to many focusing on everything/anything else other than Yeshua...or making it out as if one is a "Second-Rate" believer because they don't feel the OT Torah must be followed on all points...and effectively treat others in a manner akin to saying "You're technically my brother--but you're not my equal."

When there's a caste system within the Body of Christ because Gentiles feel they MUST become like the Jews in all things to be acceptable---or the inverse where JEWs feel that their Jewishness/heritage must be fosaken in order to appreciate Gentiles---there will always be mess. And as said in the OP, it is never Biblical when trying to act as if all things "Christian" are not "Messianic" or must be assumed to be automatically "Anti-Jewish." There are PLENTY of Jewish believers in Christ who are Messianic/consider the Christian Churches they belong to as supporting their Judaic worldview...and they get very upset whenever others try to act as if the Modern Messianic Movenment from the 1970's was the "beginning"/only incarnation of what it meant to be Jewish for Yeshua. To many, what seemed to be happening in much of the MESSIANIC Jewish movement was not truly reflective of their Jewishness anyway.....and that's why many remain outside of it.

Contra actually made a thread on the issue once that examined the ways that Judaism and Orthodoxy (as in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy) actually connected in regards to icons/symbolism are done within Judaism is similar and yet distict from how they occur within Orthodoxy---as seen in #19 from the thread entitled Symbols in Judaism versus Icons in Christianity. What is the difference... .. ....and elsewhere amongst brothers/sisters in Messianic Judaism, there was discussion on how the Ethopian Orthodox church is very similar to Jews today in Judaism when it comes to their views on the Law and how they practice differing aspects within Judaism...as seen in the thread entitled Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy ( specifically in #24 , on how the Ethopian Orthodox Church has been supported by Judaism in supporting Torah on many points ).

And for more, I'm reminded of the many experiences of those who are Hebrew Catholics. The Messianic Jews at Rosh Pina Project have been trying to address many of the issues with Hebrew Catholics, as seen here....and one of the blogs I've followed over the years has been really eye-opening, concerning those who are Hebrew Catholics and their unique role within the body of Yeshua...as seen here or here:


As there are differing aspects of the Catholic church--considering that there are Eastern Rite/Byzantine Catholics as well who are Hebrew Jews---the diversity of thought is rather fascinating...and it goes to show that one doesn't have to be apart of the Modern Day Messianic Jewish movement to be considered "Jewish" like many sub-groups within MJism may say.


But again, not all MESSIANIC Jewish fellowships are the same and some are not for the bashing of all things in Churches outside of the Modern Messianic Movement...as many work intimately with them. For that, I'm glad :)
 
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Heber

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I was not going to post further in this thread since it is only for Messianics.
However, the thread has now been derailed and turned into an attack against Jews. It's strayed far from the OP which began as a discussion on Paul.You are not the only one being singled out, Yonah.

I've conversed with other posters here and they are for the most part happy to hear from us. I don't see why it would be an issue to make a correction if someone posts something that is mistaken about Judaism.
Wouldn't they want to know the error? I would welcome someone telling me I held a mistaken belief about them.

I personally have advised someone on this forum to stay a Christian...and I did it more than once. I also posted this on the thread:

[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul" - Christian Forums

In another thread I asked how people could claim Christianity was pagan and that Paul was incorrect in his teachings. I asked how
such statements could be made on a Christian forum and suggested it
was inappropriate. I guess that makes me a missionary some sort :cool:

Most people are perfectly aware that Jews do not involve themselves in trying to convert non-Jews to Judaism....and that we actively discourage it.

It's funny because the biggest arguements and disruptions I see on this forum aren't between Jews and Messianics but between Messianics themselves and between Christians and Messianics. :wave:

...with a not very well disguised threat of an imminent attack on those who are congregational leaders and who post on these fora. We few are becoming just as open to attack as you good friends who are Jews - neither form of attack really has any true merit. But it does prove the reason most people do not want the restriction of NOT being able to attack individuals, for any reason at all. Yonah - I left, and then returned because people asked me to, only to be attacked by a number of people, but in a more subtle way than you have experienced. I begin to think that it really was not a good idea to bother to return - that decision is under serious review.
 
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anisavta

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Heber,

You know what respect I have for you and the leadership you exhibit in your position. I remember your leaving and thought it tragic to this forum. I think that we've maintained a great balance here, and that each of our sides is necessary for that balance. Messianics (both Jews and Gentiles in the mix), Non-Messianic Jews and Noahides, Christian leaders and non-Messianic Christians.... the whole mix has created a great forum to share in. I think that if any group disappeared (and some of these groups are represented by only two or three posters), then whole forum would suffer from lack of perspective.

I'm glad that you've come back, and I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through such nonsense. You're, surely, aware that the majority of the posters here (and, let's face it, the posters themselves are the forum community) appreciate you being here and the insight that you have to provide. Don't go anyway.

I also won't leave unless I'm forced out. I appreciate the sharing and support that we give each other, and the calling of one another into our place, as the case necessitates. I think this forum could do without moderators, personally - that we know how to handle ourselves, even if there are those who would kill our conversation and delete our posts, as if we were not already some kind of an online family.

Best wishes upon your return,

YM
:thumbsup:
 
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yedida

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We indeed are a family here and each one has part to play. If one goes missing, all suffer. (Gosh, I think Paul said something like that???? :D) But i's true.
Yonah, Heber, Chava, all the rest of you, are loved, appreciatted and needed. Oh yes you are!!
 
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Tishri1

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Since this thread has been going on for 43 pages and we're starting to repeat ourselves repeat ourselves. Is it time to wrap it up Tish, and move ahead?
yes great idea I will come back if any other posts need an answer:thumbsup:
 
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Tishri1

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I've read through this thread and haven't seen a logical reasoning why Paul is off limits regarding the law. If we can't hold him up to it then we put the 'church fathers' above G-d. Is that where we are at right now?

As far as the not speaking against leaders, I notices that the two minister/priests here are the ones voting for that addition to the rules. Why is that, are you infallible? or are you not just men? Who gave that ruling about not speaking against leaders?

Ex 22:28 does not speak of all that say they are leaders. Also if used in the way it has been in this thread it would revoke Deut 13.

We are explicitly told to inquire, search out, and ask diligently about any one that teaches against Torah.

And if Paul was not teaching against Torah then the whole of Christianity has been wrong for almost 2,000 years.

The argument of MJ is that Paul did not teach against Torah, but that alone goes against Mainstream Christian teachings.

You can't have it both ways.

PS, 'Hinney Binn' and others like him are fluent in the 'Do not speak against G-ds anointed' language. Anytime I heard anyone speaking that language, I don't listen to much else they say. If what they are preaching is truly from G-d it can stand on it's own merit without threats.
What we need to stop is the bashing and campaigning against Paul. Like it or not mainsteam MJ agrees Paul is not trashing Torah in his Letters and so regardless of the arguments to the contrary, to go on and on about how bad Paul is , is off topic and disruptive to the forum. We will be adding it to the MJ SOP only for clarity, as it has been expressed in the congregational rule that teaching contrary to the accepted teaching will be off topic anyway.... but to be clear on the point of Paul we will add it to the SOP

I would like to add that this also applies to the anti-Messianic (missionary) Jews who frequent here as well.

Contra, I hope you don't mind, but when you posted this it just rang true in regards to the following. Again, I hope you don't mind that I reworded to my point what you said so well. It applies to both.

Messianic Jews have no problem with Messiah in light of the rest of scripture. The Jews that don't believe in Messiah Yeshua bring prejudices of their own to the argument, and it's just not helpful to have any kind of religious discussion with someone when we can't even agree about what authority we come from. i.e. Yeshua, not Rabbi's (oral Torah).

Sure, there has to be limits. When anti-missionary (and Messiah Yeshua IS our mission here) posters have more rights here than Messianic posters do, I think there is an unfair balance. My experience here over the years here has led me to come to the conclusion that most of the anti-missionaries are teaching in one way or another. Guise it under standing up for orthodox Judaism, correcting (alleged) falsehoods. Which is defined as 'apologetics'. Letting unbelieving rabbinical Jews have free reign to operate apologetics, while stifling Christian apologetics, in a Christian forum Faith group is astoundingly remarkable to witness. And sad. Why should a Messianic Jew or believers be open to slaughter and another, who is teaching via posts and pm's and luring weak sheep to their pen be protected...... Torah in Babylon and Jesus and Matzah are prime examples. Examples of One Law sect proponents, who loath all things Christian and Two House/Sacred Name have thrown the newbie sacred namer messianic under the bus and left him to the dogs of the oral Torah who are free to tear him up and down while staff does what? Shouldn't these debates and differences be handled WITHIN our group not left to non-beleivers in our Lord and GOD? What are they doing here in this capacity in the fist place? AND should not those 'within' our faith group handle Pat34Lee in a loving respectfull way? Not ripping him to shreads? Such Messianic 'Love'.

Why will staff not address this issue? as I have exposed it numerous times throughout the year? Silence and inaction speak volumes. Which only leaves me with the impression that staff approves of this living arrangement here.

I would also like to add in closing, as i'm sure Contra will concur, that Tim Hegg and one law teaching is NOT, I repeat NOT mainstream Messianic Judaism. It seems even staff (Tishri) has made that assumption in this thread, #35 and has a LOT to do with the current state of this forum.

It is NOT balance in any way, and I would never lead someone here for fellowship. As the anti-missionaries do, I would lead them away to other pastures. Only the ones I will lead them to will promote Yeshua, not demote him.
We must have different glasses on. I know of no Rabbinic Jew that comes in here and 'sticks up for mainstream MJism'. Care to provide an example for me?

The most vocal in here have said the most hateful things to and about Messiaic Jews and Gentiles here, and in other forums. Maybe you can ignore it, but I won't. It's a double standard and quite full of hypocracy. And they have a one law gentile following here which they use as pawns. Many have been wooed to their lair over the years. We are now in the process of seeing another one who was a charismatic Christian enter here in a haze of confusion, embrace the one law heresy and now appears to be completing the journey into Rabbinical Judaism. They appear only to have to get them to understand Jesus was just a man and not God and they will fit right nice in the slot they are preparing for them. I've seen it done numerous times by the same group.

You're actually stating that there are non-belieiving Jews in this forum who understand and stick up for mainstream MJism. Please enlighten me to them so I may enjoy their presence here. Sticking up for the division between a Jew and a Christian is NOT sticking up for mainstream MJism in my understanding, Contra. As the most frequent argument they present is Messianic Jews are NOT Jews but Christians.

I would like to see even one Rabbinical Jew here that 'understands and sticks up' for these things. Can I get a witness from even one of them that they 'stick up and understand' the above confessions of faith?

I've seen quite the opposite. They actively argue, fight, and teach against most of what is listed in the 9 points. What they don't fight against has no bearing on them anyway. But the fact remains, I've seen nothing but 'apologetics' from them in a 'congregational' forum. And again, why is THIS forum the only forum where 'non-believers' are allowed to counter the mainstream tenents of our faith?

So, what do you think it would look like and happen if the UMJC allowed non-belivers to participate from 'within' the congregation? Which is what is happening here. As a pastor i'm stunned that you even consider such a thing. Even the ringleader who has his own forum does not allow his 'areana' to be dominated by 'Messianics'. Though they come here and dominate a congregational forum. And you seem to authorize their use against 'the radicals'?

Help me contra, your the only one left here (outside of easyG) that I respect. Please help me understand your pov. I'm not mad at you, i'm dismayed at the hypocracy of it all. And I have never found you a hypocrite.
The congregational forums are open to anyone who wants to post in fellowship and ask questions with in reason(if visitors /non members disrupt the forum for the members then that will be looked at) . Only members(those who identify themselves with the mainstream teaching of the group represented) are allowed to teach and debate and cant campaign or promote teaching that is against the accepted mainstream beliefs.

and to touch on one house or two house....the idea that Torah is important is what is being held up here in this forum, and also the fact that salvation is not received by Torah submission at all, but that it is an individual walk for each of you, and one that your congregational leader can discuss with you. There is no group leaning one way or another with regards to Torah Submission(one house or two doesnt enter in to the equation in this forum), only that Torah is respected here, as that is Main stream MJ teaching (FYI Torah in MJ does not include oral torah/Rabbinic Judaism).


Heber,

You know what respect I have for you and the leadership you exhibit in your position. I remember your leaving and thought it tragic to this forum. I think that we've maintained a great balance here, and that each of our sides is necessary for that balance. Messianics (both Jews and Gentiles in the mix), Non-Messianic Jews and Noahides, Christian leaders and non-Messianic Christians.... the whole mix has created a great forum to share in. I think that if any group disappeared (and some of these groups are represented by only two or three posters), then whole forum would suffer from lack of perspective.

I'm glad that you've come back, and I'm sorry to hear that you've gone through such nonsense. You're, surely, aware that the majority of the posters here (and, let's face it, the posters themselves are the forum community) appreciate you being here and the insight that you have to provide. Don't go anyway.

I also won't leave unless I'm forced out. I appreciate the sharing and support that we give each other, and the calling of one another into our place, as the case necessitates. I think this forum could do without moderators, personally - that we know how to handle ourselves, even if there are those who would kill our conversation and delete our posts, as if we were not already some kind of an online family.

Best wishes upon your return,

YM
Um sorry guys but your stuck with Mods in this forum and I just want to add Noahides are not MJ (they are not believers)


So to wrap up....

We will be adding the Anti Paul and Anti Torah clause for clarity. This means you can discuss Paul and Torah to your hearts content but no campaign to say Paul was anti Torah or leading the congregations away from Torah(thats not main stream MJ teaching)

And no campaign saying Torah was nailed to the cross or whatever the lingo is now out there. You may discuss what Torah submission looks like to you(Thats very MJ!), but respect the others' degree of submission whether its more or less than yours. I have not seen mainstream MJ take a stand on degrees of Torah submission for the individual, Jew or Gentile, so we wont either ok:)

The only thing I have seen the majority hold onto is that salvation was bought by Yeshua and therefore our Torah submission is done purely from the heart.
 
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