[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"

[Tishri1]

Hey Guys lets talk....we need to figure out this new debate issue about Paul as its getting out of hand a bit....I dont want to add anymore to the MJ SOP(statement of purpose) as lists tend to get sooooooo long but if we needed to, what else besides this Paul issue would you add? just curious...

In case some of you dont know whats been going on, there have been lots of threads and posts discrediting Paul and his ministry to the gentiles, and that has never been main stream MJ doctrine or teaching therefore its beginning to be a disruption to the forum


What are your thoughts on this issue and what other issues are of concern?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Subscribing

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Subscribing also.

 

[yedida]

What are some other issues?
How about Torah proper was NOT nailed to the cross nor annulled. Until I came to this forum almost a year ago, I'd never heard a person who claimed to be Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile state that observance of Torah to the best of one's abilitly was a bad thing to do. I've heard that numerous times since being a member here and to me it's troubling.
I do not deny salvation is by grace. That's a given, always has been. I don't think anyone would find a religious Jew who would say otherwise, certainly not a believer in Yeshua. But.....there is the very big place for obedience and sanctification, etc.
'nuff said right now.......

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Hey Guys lets talk....we need to figure out this new debate issue about Paul as its getting out of hand a bit....I dont want to add anymore to the MJ SOP(statement of purpose) as lists tend to get sooooooo long but if we needed to, what else besides this Paul issue would you add? just curious...

In case some of you dont know whats been going on, there have been lots of threads and posts discrediting Paul and his ministry to the gentiles, and that has never been main stream MJ doctrine or teaching therefore its beginning to be a disruption to the forum


What are your thoughts on this issue and what other issues are of concern?

Many thanks for bringing up the thread as you did.....for it has been something other posters have noticed for awhile---and I'm glad it wasn't something that the moderators have not been aware of.

I know that there've been several MJ believers/posters over the years that have noted how it is an issue that anything/everything related to Paul has been discredited (attempted at least)--and claimed that it was "Messianic" and yet most Messianic Fellowships/Organizations vehemently disagree with that.

There are others, I've noticed, that have advocated that even what Paul noted with the blood of Christ cleansing us of all sin has not really been achieved/activated yet---with the Law being the main thing that can/will redeem us fully.

Alot of it, IMHO, seems similar to what occurred with the Ebionites when it came to the early church and certain groups saying that anything of Paul was counter to Torah---and that only certain books in the NT Gospels could be trusted while Gentiles were bound to keep all of the OT laws as the Jews were. IMHO, it seems to be a resurrgence of such thought...akin to Neo-Ebionites --and some of which was discussed elsewhere in places like #91 /"Nazarenes, Ebionites, and Essenes ( )

This is not to say that there's anything wrong with not having a Pauline Interpretation---but it is interesting to see how often its claimed to be the "Messianic Jewish" way toward other posters and yet most Messianic Jewish organizations are far from that. At my own home fellowship of Congregation Miskan David / Mivdad Shem Kodesh, we often discuss differing interpretations within the Messianic Movement.....and something my rabbi noted was that its often those who are Gentiles within the Messianic movement that seem to be doing the most bashing toward anything even remotely labeled "Christian"-----despite the fact that many Jewish believers found their Jewishness expressed best in camps in Christian camps, be it Liturgical (i.e. Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, etc) or Charismatic or Evangelical and many others...as discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #30 /#29 , #94 and #96.


For those Jewish believers who are very much about the value of the Law/Torah and who seek to glorify Yeshua, it seems to be a bit insulting to them whenever the term "Christian" or "Paul" is denounced in the name of Christ.

As another Messianic Jewish poster noted, many of the views held/discussed by others seem to often be on the radical/fringe side of things...and many other Messianic Jewish posters have long left because it seems that most discussions are either centered on bashing Paul or all things related to Christianity when the Messianic movement at large was never meant to be any of that. In many ways, what was once a minority thought not held by most Messianics has become the DOMINANT view on the forum for a season---and anyone disagreeing with that seems to be attacked instantly. The other thing said, if disagreeing with most here, is that one's automatically a "Christian"--as if its a pejorative. Worse things have been said besides that....even if/when its not true, such as claiming that only "Christians" believe in grace making us pure or that Christians don't support the views of others here---and that seems to be another way of flamming, IMHO, toward others. It has often been reported, but nothing has been done about it...and that's interesting, IMHO.

 

[ChavaK]

Thank you Tish for bringing this up!

A while back I expressed on this forum about how I found it disturbing that
some (not all, of course) Messianics stated that Christianity is full of
paganism....and how people were questioning Paul, by which extension
questions the theology of Christianity and it's scriptures. I, as a Jew,
was defending Christian beliefs, yet I got shot down by others here
who continued to proclaim Christianity full of paganism. I would also like
to point out that I discussed this issue via PM with another member and
they were equally as disturbed as I was....and that they had attempted
to address the issue via reporting certain posts but did not find their
concerns dealt with.

I really think that no one- no matter what their icon may state they are-
should be discrediting the basic beliefs and scriptures of Christianity on a Christian forum.

 

[visionary]

The Paul issue has more to do with the interpretation of his letters, the wrong interpretation [aka.. Paul gave up His Jewishness and taught that position] is a major MJ concern. If the mainstream is correct and Paul did this.. then MJ should be concerned with the implications of Paul's mind and faith on the truth.

As you presented the conclusions of CF and their decisions and new ruling, any opinion we may have on the subject is of no matter. But I am going to give it anyway....

I can understand the CF forum making a hard rule that Paul must not come under question let alone fire.. as there will be no satisfactory conclusion to this study or debate .. but the banning of the subject itself does block the study aspect which is never healthy ... personally, I believe throwing Paul out is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater...it should not be done...besides bathwater is good for the garden.

 

[yedida]

What are some other issues?
How about Torah proper was NOT nailed to the cross nor annulled. Until I came to this forum almost a year ago, I'd never heard a person who claimed to be Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile state that observance of Torah to the best of one's ability was a bad thing to do. I've heard that numerous times since being a member here and to me it's troubling.
I do not deny salvation is by grace. That's a given, always has been. I don't think anyone would find a religious Jew who would say otherwise, certainly not a believer in Yeshua. But.....there is the very big place for obedience and sanctification, etc.

I started with the "other" issues first because that's what usually causes the Paul issues.
Very simple, with me. If something stated, whether by Luke, John, Peter, James or Paul, etc., contradicts what was said before, by God either through the hand of Moses, the mouths of the Prophets or Yeshua, then a decision has to be made, which takes precedence, which holds true? Personally, I will opt for the words attributed to God.
As much as we Christians hate to admit it, there are contradictions in the bible, here's one: James 1:13 or Gen. 22:1? Was Gen. a lie? did James lie? did God change? or were the NT mss. messed with for one reason or another (either accidentily or purposefully, that I can't say)? (I choose the last option, and Paul's letters being the largest portion of the NT certainly fell prey to that.) Paul is much maligned, and I'm beginning to see, very wrongly so - but it just seems to be so much easier to misinterpret him than the others, most likely, because we have more of what he wrote than the rest. And it almost always seems to go back to the case of: is the Torah still valid or not?

 

[zaksmummy]

1 Peter 3v15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I think the problem of Paul is not Paul, but the fact that we have had such a long time of Pauls letters being interpreted from a distorted and anti-Torah perspective. When you begin to try and read them from a Torah observant perspective, you still read him with your old understanding and without anyone to teach you how to understand his teaching you get very anit-Paul.

From what I have seen of the discussions surrounding Paul on this forum, this is the problem.

 

[anisavta]

It's much easier in our society to find fault with everything rather than build up. It's easier to discredit what we don't understand.
It's one thing to make a statement within a thread stating disagreement. We can debate within threads. But to purposely create threads to foster argument and create doubt and even hatred is quite another. Is that what Messiah taught us to do?
Paul's letters were written to a Gentile population dealing with issues they were accustomed to. As a Jew, I have other spiritual issues to grapple with. And so I use his letters as I would a buffet. What speaks to my needs I take. What doesn't I leave. I do that with the sages too. Just because I can't identify with something does not make it evil and wrong.
IMHO (okay not so humble) I think it's time we all grow up, realize we're in a battle and quit fighting over who gets to be first in the chow line. We have bigger enemies to fight than each other.

 

[aniello]

1 Peter 3v15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I think the problem of Paul is not Paul, but the fact that we have had such a long time of Pauls letters being interpreted from a distorted and anti-Torah perspective. When you begin to try and read them from a Torah observant perspective, you still read him with your old understanding and without anyone to teach you how to understand his teaching you get very anit-Paul.

From what I have seen of the discussions surrounding Paul on this forum, this is the problem.

Zaksmummy,

I think you have absolutely nailed the issue to a "T". It is not Paul's letters that I would dispute, rather it has been the presentation(s) of Paul's thoughts that are confusing. In 76 years I have heard and seen everything from soup to nuts, and I do mean NUTS, in a manner speaking, as to what is Paul is saying.

To me, Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, and I don't think he had a speech impediment! In other words, Jesus is PRIMARY and only Him alone.

 

[anisavta]

Zaksmummy,

I think you have absolutely nailed the issue to a "T". It is not Paul's letters that I would dispute, rather it has been the presentation(s) of Paul's thoughts that are confusing. In 76 years I have heard and seen everything from soup to nuts, and I do mean NUTS, in a manner speaking, as to what is Paul is saying.

To me, Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, and I don't think he had a speech impediment! In other words, Jesus is PRIMARY and only Him alone.

 

[visionary]

Zaksmummy,

I think you have absolutely nailed the issue to a "T". It is not Paul's letters that I would dispute, rather it has been the presentation(s) of Paul's thoughts that are confusing. In 76 years I have heard and seen everything from soup to nuts, and I do mean NUTS, in a manner speaking, as to what is Paul is saying.

To me, Yeshua/Jesus is Messiah, and I don't think he had a speech impediment! In other words, Jesus is PRIMARY and only Him alone.

I agree

 

[yedida]

I was in the middle of a response much earlier when my internet went out and I lost it. That was just fine, as I decided a fresh thread would be better (as it may have derailed this one).
Anyway, that said, while I was posting the new thread, Zaksmummy, a very wise lady, by the way, hit the nail on the head. Old thought processes are harder to unlearn than brand new ones are to learn.
And I also give a thumbs up to Anisavta as well, another very wise lady!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A while back I expressed on this forum about how I found it disturbing thatsome (not all, of course) Messianics stated that Christianity is full of paganism....and how people were questioning Paul, by which extension questions the theology of Christianity and it's scriptures. I, as a Jew, was defending Christian beliefs, yet I got shot down by others here who continued to proclaim Christianity full of paganism.

Something I always found interesting is how often there seems to be a focus upon Paul---as if he was unique in what he advocated on many points when it comes to things many take issue with such as love being the fulfillment of the law/things others equate to being "anti-Torah"---and yet, with other books in the Bible, they seem to be even more radical than Paul and yet they're left alone.




Specifically, I'm reminded of the Johannine Epistles, which have long been recognised as contributing a vital element to the theology of the New Testament. Usually it is to the Gospel (Gospel of John) that the reader turns first in order to explore that contribution. The First Epistle is treated as a supplement, while 2 and 3 John - on account of their brevity - receive little attention. But the things noted in Johannine theology are very powerful when it comes to clarifying what it means to either.

The three letters of John after the Gospel He wrote are among the shooter books in the New Testament. In fact, 2nd and 3rd John are the shortest books in the New Testament. This point quite often leads us to gauge them as being of lesser importance and results in neglect on our part...but they are far more.

It often seems that people try to place both Paul and the other apostles into opposition with each other continually...but Johanine theology doesn't seem to support that. In example, Paul made exceptionally clear that he only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love ( Galatians 5:5-7, Romans 13:7-9, Romans 13, Galatians 6:1-3, etc )---and even the other apostles echoed this same concept in their epistles, such as John when he summed up God's commands/Torah into simply LOVING your neighbor ( 1 John 4:20-21 , 1 John 3:22-24, )

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
2 John 1:5-7/ 2 John 1

​

For some good review:

• Peter & the Beloved Disciple
• Early Christian Writing - I John
• Moses-Like Prophet in John -Yeshua in Context
• Introduction: The Johannine Epistles: The Faith In The Crucible
  

As they are used JUST as much as the Pauline Epistles when it comes to formulating doctrine within Christianity, its odd to see so many focus upon interpreting Paul...for there would still be others similar to His interpretations that one would need to deal with.
James, the brother of Jesus, noted the same exact concept when it came to demonstrating one's heart for the Lord by their deeds---and his stance was that the ULTIMATE expression of devotion to the Lord was whether or not one truly loved their neighbor ( James 2:8 ), prior to any kind of discussion on faith/works...and even his stance of works/faith went directly in line with what Paul noted.

IMHO, if people continually focus upon Paul, it does seem that there should be a focus on others as well..

 

[visionary]

If you notice.. if the verse doesn't fit a certain theology it is ignored or poo pooed.

 

[aniello]

Hey Guys lets talk....we need to figure out this new debate issue about Paul as its getting out of hand a bit....I dont want to add anymore to the MJ SOP(statement of purpose) as lists tend to get sooooooo long but if we needed to, what else besides this Paul issue would you add? just curious...

In case some of you dont know whats been going on, there have been lots of threads and posts discrediting Paul and his ministry to the gentiles, and that has never been main stream MJ doctrine or teaching therefore its beginning to be a disruption to the forum


What are your thoughts on this issue and what other issues are of concern?

With respect, but with resolute firmness, I ask a question of you, Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch(both of whom, from your A and K icons, respectively, are staff). I do not think it wise to assume anything from mere outside appearances, such as icons and other adornments. We may not be in the type court I work in. But, indeed, before the Holy God of All-Father, Son and Holy Spirit we are in court on a level that far transcends the frail efforts and philosophies of we mere humans. Yet HE watches. Nothing eludes HIM.

My question is simply this. Do you, Tishri1, and you, MarkRohfrietsch, without reservation nor equivocation believe, and affirm, that Jesus is the Son of God and that He ALONE is Lord in the past, now, and forever, and shall be LORD of all Lords and KING of all Kings ALONE-Exclusively for all Eternity without end?

Please answer "yes", "no" or there is silence. Silence is an answer too, in any court of law.

This is a trust issue. I know not whether or not to trust you, either one, at this point. By your answering I/We will know where you stand, respectively, and from there we will be able to base our trust on how you answer regarding this question, namely the LORDship of Jesus the Messiah, one of the most essential of the Christian Faith.

I do not mean to offend either of you. But I want to have you establish who is Lord in your hearts before us, before we go on to discuss this confusion that apparently exists over Paul's words. Either Jesus is Primary or someone else is. I personally have no great dispute with Paul's words. But, who, to you is LORD?

Now I must go to an arraignment hearing in the un-real real world. As believers can we see there is a huge untended field out there? I think we have been loafing. My 2 cents.

 

[yedida]

With respect, but with resolute firmness, I ask a question of you, Tishri1 and MarkRohfrietsch(both of whom, from your A and K icons, respectively, are staff). I do not think it wise to assume anything from mere outside appearances, such as icons and other adornments. We may not be in the type court I work in. But, indeed, before the Holy God of All-Father, Son and Holy Spirit we are in court on a level that far transcends the frail efforts and philosophies of we mere humans. Yet HE watches. Nothing eludes HIM.

My question is simply this. Do you, Tishri1, and you, MarkRohfrietsch, without reservation nor equivocation believe, and affirm, that Jesus is the Son of God and that He ALONE is Lord in the past, now, and forever, and shall be LORD of all Lords and KING of all Kings ALONE-Exclusively for all Eternity without end?

Please answer "yes", "no" or there is silence. Silence is an answer too, in any court of law.

This is a trust issue. I know not whether or not to trust you, either one, at this point. By your answering I/We will know where you stand, respectively, and from there we will be able to base our trust on how you answer regarding this question, namely the LORDship of Jesus the Messiah, one of the most essential of the Christian Faith.

I do not mean to offend either of you. But I want to have you establish who is Lord in your hearts before us, before we go on to discuss this confusion that apparently exists over Paul's words. Either Jesus is Primary or someone else is. I personally have no great dispute with Paul's words. But, who, to you is LORD?

Now I must go to an arraignment hearing in the un-real real world. As believers can we see there is a huge untended field out there? I think we have been loafing. My 2 cents.

To a large degree, I have to agree here.
Let me go ahead and put the nail in my coffin...

Where I am coming from is this: a long long time ago the term Messianic Jew or Messianic Judaism meant Jews who believed in Jesus. Gentiles were not a part of the mix, and for the most part, those Jews assimilated into the church theology that believes that Torah observance is a has-been thing (some believed this for real, others quietly continued following Torah).
About 60 years ago or so, Messianic Judaism took a turn and these Jews began openly returning to Torah observance with their trust placed firmly in Yeshua. And about 40-50 years ago or so, Gentiles began coming into this fold and were welcomed. This has not changed.
So today, we have Jews who have converted completely to the Gentile church and that's fine. We have Jews who have received their Messiah Yeshua but retain full Jewish identity, this too, is fine. We have Gentiles who are a part of the Gentile church and we have Gentiles who now identify themselves with the second group of Jews, Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles, and this also is fine.
But somehow, this MJ forum is now a mix of both types of Jewish believers, and one type of Gentile believers.
The biggest contention comes when the Jewish Christians (with and without the MJ icon) try to tell MJs and MGs that Torah observance is wrong. That we've gone back under the law and therefore have undone what Yeshua accomplished for us. This is not true. We get of accused trying to add works as a part of salvation and that we tell this to others. And that is a downright LIE! At least in the almost 11 months that I've been a member here (I know, that.s not that long a time, but long enough) I have not seen one person on this forum ever say that! The only thing I've ever seen anyone of us tell someone else is that we observe Torah not for salvation but because we are saved. Some of these Jewish Christians don't even use the MJ icon, some do. Regardless, those of us who observe Torah are being ragged on from all sides, and it's not right.
We believe Matt. 5:17-18 is true and valid today.

 

[ananda]

Hey Guys lets talk....we need to figure out this new debate issue about Paul as its getting out of hand a bit.... threads and posts discrediting Paul and his ministry to the gentiles, and that has never been main stream MJ doctrine or teaching therefore its beginning to be a disruption to the forum. What are your thoughts on this issue and what other issues are of concern?

I would venture to say that in the first century A.D., Messiah's message was not mainstream doctrine or teaching. Was it right for the religious and civil authorities to suppress His message? I would also echo the same conviction Peter expressed, when the same authorities attempted to command the apostles against teaching Messiah's doctrine : "We ought to obey God rather than men," whereby Gamaliel well advised the council that they should "Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." (Ac 5)

Another closely related problem I see is how, in my opinion, the vast majority of Messianics and Christians elevate all of the writings and hold them all to the same degree of inspiration. This is contrary to the views traditionally held by the Jews of old and as alluded to by statements made by Messiah Himself (Mt 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40, Lk 16:16, 24:44, Jn 1:45) - that of Torah preeminence and the Prophets second. The Writings were considered helpful but not necessarily inspired. Why are Paul's interpretations allowed to trump the clear teachings of the Torah, Prophets, and Messiah's Words?

I would also venture to say that I love our Abba and Messiah as much as any other Messianic here in this forum, and I cleave unto Him and His Word. I am not here to cause disruption to the forum, nor am I here to rile up dissension for the sake of dissension. If it is wrong to even question difficulties in the texts, then I would be the first to admit my guilt. My goal is to find the truth at all costs, as Messiah commands us to do.

Finally, I will ask this: Is agreement with Paul necessary for fellowship on this forum? I will put forth the case that it should not be a requirement. We have ample evidence that many were saved without the need for Paul.

 

[anisavta]

Finally, I will ask this: Is agreement with Paul necessary for fellowship on this forum? I will put forth the case that it should not be a requirement. We have ample evidence that many were saved without the need for Paul

I don't think the issue here is so much agreeing or disagreeing with Paul, as much as it is vilifying him and making him out as public enemy #1.