Replacement theology

[ShirleyFord]

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Since Jesus was the first to experience the redemption of the body, the second resurrection, He is the firstfruits to them who have been saved by His mighty power and received the firstfruits of the Spirit, the first resurrection, we will receive the Full Harvest, the redemption of our bodies, the second resurrection, at His Coming!

Glory to His magnificant Name, His unmatchless Name!

Shirley

 

[Markea]

"So, because we know that the Lord has not returned yet with all His saints following Him in fine linen, clean and white... we also know that the beast is a future reality..."

No, not quite.

So perhaps the Lord will come with all His saints and destroy a make believe beast and false prophet.. is that it..?

2 Thess 2 speaks of the Lord destroying the man of sin with the brightness of His coming..

So would you say No, not quite. to that as well.. ?

Concerning a believer being born again.. it's just as you said.. the Spirit of promise is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption... and Romans 8 as you also quoted clearly shows us that this redemption has not happened yet..

Nowhere does scripture equate the new birth in Christ to the first resurrection.. it's a birth, not a resurrection. Paul warned of those who would say that the resurrection is past.. warning that their word ate like a cancer and that it overthrew the faith of some..

It's a dangerous mistake to spiritualize the resurrection of the dead.. for the entire gospel is based upon Christ being risen from the dead.. physically..

 

[Mark G.]

John saw the souls of those that had been beheaded because of their testimony...

John saw the souls ](not the bodies) of those that had been beheaded because of their testimony...

we also know that the beast is a future reality...

A future reality... I don't think so, the beast is a present reality...

The Beast imagery in Revelation shifts between the generic and the specific. This is important to grasp: sometimes the Beast represents a kingdom, sometimes a individual leader of that kingdom, that man of sin.

John's antichrist was not merely a future identity. He was a present reality.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 2:18, 19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
2 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 4:3 ... and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now is it in the world.

[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The apostle Paul also declared, ". . . the mystery of iniquity doth already work . . ." 2 Thess. 2:7. So antichrist must always be seen as a present reality[/font]


Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Markea]

John saw the souls ](not the bodies) of those that had been beheaded because of their testimony...


A future reality... I don't think so, the beast is a present reality...

Really.. so he makes you worship him now and if you don't..he will kill you.. ? Has he demanded that you receive a mark on your right hand or on your forehead without which you can not buy or sell..?

There's no doubt that evil is present.. ie, Satan and his demonic powers in high places are not yet bound... but Paul does tell us that he will not be revealed or fully manifested until the restrainer (He who holds him back) is taken out of the way..

 

[ShirleyFord]

Paul warned of those who would say that the resurrection is past.. warning that their word ate like a cancer and that it overthrew the faith of some..

Yes he did. That is why we can never say that either our first resurrection or our second resurrection is past.

The Lord mercifully saved me in 1967. But after all these years, I'm still saved. My salvation, the redemption of my soul, my first resurrection, is still both current and present. And tomorrow and the next day and until Jesus comes back or He takes me Home before then, my first resurrection is a present reality! So my first resurrection has not passed. Neither has my second resurrection passed. I eagerly await the Coming of my dear Savior, when I will receive my reward: The redemption of my physical body when both my soul and body will have everlasting life with Jesus forever and forever and forever!

What a glorious Day that will be! Glory! It is so hard to contain myself in this old body of flesh at the thought!

I'm sorry, Markea, I got so carried away, but you didn't say which resurrection to which you were referring.

Shirley

 

[holdon]

Yes he did. That is why we can never say that either our first resurrection or our second resurrection is past.

The Lord mercifully saved me in 1967. But after all these years, I'm still saved. My salvation, the redemption of my soul, my first resurrection, is still both current and present. And tomorrow and the next day and until Jesus comes back or He takes me Home before then, my first resurrection is a present reality! So my first resurrection has not passed. Neither has my second resurrection passed. I eagerly await the Coming of my dear Savior, when I will receive my reward: The redemption of my physical body when both my soul and body will have everlasting life with Jesus forever and forever and forever!

What a glorious Day that will be! Glory! It is so hard to contain myself in this old body of flesh at the thought!

I'm sorry, Markea, I got so carried away. But you didn't say which resurrection to which you were referring?

Shirley

It seems to me that you may be confounding "new life" with resurrection. Resurrecton in the reunion of soul and body. New life, born again, regeneration, is getting a new kind of spiritual life.
There is a resurrection from among the dead: clearly meaning that not all are resurrected at the same time. Jesus rose from among the dead. All saved persons that have died will be taking part in the resurrection of the dead: the first resurrection. They are raised at different times, but it is called the first resurrection.
There is really no mention of a second resurrection. But we know of the resurrection of the unjust that happens at the end, when they shall rise to stand before the great white throne judgment at the end of Satan's final uprising after the millenium. This is actually called the second death.

 

[ShirleyFord]

It seems to me that you may be confounding "new life" with resurrection. Resurrecton in the reunion of soul and body. New life, born again, regeneration, is getting a new kind of spiritual life.

This is what the Bible says about our new life when God saves us:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We know that at the redemption of our body, the second resurrection, our bodies, which were physically dead (the first death) will be made alive (quickened) at the Second Coming of Christ.

Likewise, our souls, being dead in trespasses and sins, Jesus took our old dead souls, just like he will take our old dead bodies, and quickened them by changing them, making them alive; thereby raising us from death to life "through the faith of the operation of God."

holden, that what true salvation is, what the Bible says happens to us when we are born again. Resurrection!

Shirley

 

[holdon]

holden, that what true salvation is, what the Bible says happens to us when we are born again. Resurrection!

Shirley

No, we are not resurrected when we are born again. We are made alive. That is not the reunion of our souls with our new bodies.

 

[yhshua]

Hi yeshuasavedme.



Thank you for the time you put in this.

The type is found in Jacob taking Leah, first, and Rachel His choice, seven days later, I think- in typing.

I will have to meditate and seek a clearer understanding of Jacob’s two wedding/brides. I see Jacob being the father of the 12 tribes and as such, is a type of what happens to those 12 tribes, as was Job also a type of this. Jacob, while leaving and being away from his father’s house works for 7 years for the love of his life only to find out afterwards that he had been tricked by Laban. This seems to be the condition of Israel today believing they will be married to Yahweh but soon to find out Satan has tricked them. At the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel or the 7 years of tribulation they will once again work and seek for Rachael or a right relationship with Yahweh. But I don’t see the LORD having two brides at the same time. Like queen Vashti, Israel was given a divorce and another bide sought out.

… all who are redeemed from Adam are 'married' to the Firstborn, the Israel of God, YHWH of hosts in flesh, 'Yeshua

In the book of Revelation we see the 24 elders who are Kings and priests with Yahshua sitting on thrones (In the Holy of Holies) who will rule over heaven and earth. We see others who are not a part of this group who are underneath the altar (in the outer court). And we see still others standing on the glassy sea (having access to the inner court).



In the Old Testament we see that only the Levitical tribe (a type of the Church) was able to go pass the altar. The 24 elders represent the Church or bride of Yahshua. The other 11 tribes could not go pass the brazen altar in the outer court. Those underneath the altar in Heaven are all the Old Testament redeemed but they are not a part of the bride of Christ or 24 elders, this would include John the Baptist and the thief on the cross. Yahshua said of John the Baptist, “…Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he (Luke 7:28).” It would seem from this verse that those from Pentecost forward have a greater position in Heaven than all those before Pentecost (those underneath the altar).



The glassy sea is a picture of the brazen laver of the tabernacle that held 3000 baths of water, etc. Of course all the priests on the first day of their consecration had to be bathed all over by Moses. Those on the glassy sea in Heaven represent all the redeemed from the day of Pentecost forward. This would include those who come out of the great tribulation and SERVE Him day and night. This would include the redeemed after the tribulation that will serve him. But this group is not a part of the bride but are GUESTS who are invited to the wedding of the bride. Though it is said that this group will rule with him, it is as priests and governors that they rule and not as KINGS.



The type that helps us here is Solomon had 12 GOVERNERS to rule over his table but he had 24 courses of priests that ruled over the sanctuary and things of Yahweh. Governors rule over cities, Kings rule over governors and over Nations. It also helps to look at the queen of Sheba who history says married Solomon.



Joseph as a type of Christ was already married to a Gentile bride before the 7 years of famine. His brothers were given the land of Goshen to live near him but not with him in the same house with his bride.



So also, as a type of Christ, Moses was married to a Gentile bride before he came the second time to free his brethren who were in slavery. Having killed the taskmaster the first time he was rejected by his brethren as their deliverer.

….We are, spiritually, all these, adopted, married, and inheritors, in Him, of the regenerated kingdom that our first father lost. and the New Father, the firstborn, is our 'husband' after the regenerated body is received, as it was from His side that we were brought forth. as Eve was from Adam -see?

The first “I will” of scripture mirrors the last “I will” of scripture in a Menorah structure. Genesis 2:18 say’s, “And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” Taking away an equal number of verses away from the end of the Bible we come to Revelation 21:9 and the last “I will”. “… Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.” Yes, as Adam was made on the 6th day and then put into a deep sleep…. So also the 2nd Adam hung on the cross for 6 hours to make a new man, to make a new creation. He then was put into a deep sleep called death, a soldier came and pierced His side and Yahweh/yahshua uses the blood and water from His side to make a bride as is also mirrored in the Menorah lamp stand structure. We are called Christian being taken from His side as woman was taken from man, we are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh.



When we see Him we will be just as He is. But I don’t see this being for all but the bride or Church. When Yahshua appeared on the mount of transfiguration there was Moses and Elijah with Him. These three had glorified bodies. Moses and Elijah seem here to represent the church, those that died in Christ and those alive at His appearing. Peter, James and John on the mountain were not given glorified bodies at that time but were placed ahead of those that ran to meet him. When we come back with Christ at His second coming to the earth on the day of atonement we will be just as He is, the Jews will be set up at the head of the nations and all the earth will come to worship Him. These are different groups with different blessings.

.….all those who were resurrected at the beginning of the Day of the LORD, which happened seven years before the end of the trib, will not be given rule….

This is where we are seeing things different. In Ephesians we see all the church is seated with Christ in Heaven (on Thrones) and have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places (this would include all the blessings the 24 elders will have being Kings, etc. would it not?). They sing, “He has made us (not we ourselves) to be KINGS and priests…”



Do you see the 24 elders represent the Church (from Pentecost to the rapture which will happen at His appearing on the Feast of Trumpets)? Those coming out of the great tribulation and those after the tribulation do not become a part of the 24 elders or bride of Christ.



All the best in Christ,

yhshua

 

[yhshua]

Hi yeshuasavedme.

Thank you for the time you put in this.

The type is found in Jacob taking Leah, first, and Rachel His choice, seven days later, I think- in typing.

I will have to meditate and seek a clearer understanding of Jacob’s two wedding/brides. I see Jacob being the father of the 12 tribes and as such, is a type of what happens to those 12 tribes, as was Job also a type of this. Jacob, while leaving and being away from his father’s house works for 7 years for the love of his life only to find out afterwards that he had been tricked by Laban. This seems to be the condition of Israel today believing they will be married to Yahweh but soon to find out Satan has tricked them. At the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel or the 7 years of tribulation they will once again work and seek for Rachael or a right relationship with Yahweh. But I don’t see the LORD having two brides at the same time. Like queen Vashti, Israel was given a divorce and another bide sought out.

… all who are redeemed from Adam are 'married' to the Firstborn, the Israel of God, YHWH of hosts in flesh, 'Yeshua

In the book of Revelation we see the 24 elders who are Kings and priests with Yahshua sitting on thrones (In the Holy of Holies) who will rule over heaven and earth. We see others who are not a part of this group who are underneath the altar (in the outer court). And we see still others standing on the glassy sea (having access to the inner court).

In the Old Testament we see that only the Levitical tribe (a type of the Church) was able to go pass the altar. The 24 elders represent the Church or bride of Yahshua. The other 11 tribes could not go pass the brazen altar in the outer court. Those underneath the altar in Heaven are all the Old Testament redeemed but they are not a part of the bride of Christ or 24 elders, this would include John the Baptist and the thief on the cross. Yahshua said of John the Baptist, “…Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he (Luke 7:28).” It would seem from this verse that those from Pentecost forward have a greater position in Heaven than all those before Pentecost (those underneath the altar).

The glassy sea is a picture of the brazen laver of the tabernacle that held 3000 baths of water, etc. Of course all the priests on the first day of their consecration had to be bathed all over by Moses. Those on the glassy sea in Heaven represent all the redeemed from the day of Pentecost forward. This would include those who come out of the great tribulation and SERVE Him day and night. This would include the redeemed after the tribulation that will serve him. But this group is not a part of the bride but are GUESTS who are invited to the wedding of the bride. Though it is said that this group will rule with him, it is as priests and governors that they rule and not as KINGS.

The type that helps us here is Solomon had 12 GOVERNERS to rule over his table but he had 24 courses of priests that ruled over the sanctuary and things of Yahweh. Governors rule over cities, Kings rule over governors and over Nations. It also helps to look at the queen of Sheba who history says married Solomon.

Joseph as a type of Christ was already married to a Gentile bride before the 7 years of famine. His brothers were given the land of Goshen to live near him but not with him in the same house with his bride.

So also, as a type of Christ, Moses was married to a Gentile bride before he came the second time to free his brethren who were in slavery. Having killed the taskmaster the first time he was rejected by his brethren as their deliverer.

….We are, spiritually, all these, adopted, married, and inheritors, in Him, of the regenerated kingdom that our first father lost. and the New Father, the firstborn, is our 'husband' after the regenerated body is received, as it was from His side that we were brought forth. as Eve was from Adam -see?

The first “I will” of scripture mirrors the last “I will” of scripture in a Menorah structure. Genesis 2:18 say’s, “And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.” Taking away an equal number of verses away from the end of the Bible we come to Revelation 21:9 and the last “I will”. “… Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.” Yes, as Adam was made on the 6th day and then put into a deep sleep…. So also the 2nd Adam hung on the cross for 6 hours to make a new man, to make a new creation. He then was put into a deep sleep called death, a soldier came and pierced His side and Yahweh/yahshua uses the blood and water from His side to make a bride as is also mirrored in the Menorah lamp stand structure. We are called Christian being taken from His side as woman was taken from man, we are bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh.

When we see Him we will be just as He is. But I don’t see this being for all but the bride or Church. When Yahshua appeared on the mount of transfiguration there was Moses and Elijah with Him. These three had glorified bodies. Moses and Elijah seem here to represent the church, those that died in Christ and those alive at His appearing. Peter, James and John on the mountain were not given glorified bodies at that time but were placed ahead of those that ran to meet him. When we come back with Christ at His second coming to the earth on the day of atonement we will be just as He is, the Jews will be set up at the head of the nations and all the earth will come to worship Him. These are different groups with different blessings.

.….all those who were resurrected at the beginning of the Day of the LORD, which happened seven years before the end of the trib, will not be given rule….

This is where we are seeing things different. In Ephesians we see all the church is seated with Christ in Heaven (on Thrones) and have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places (this would include all the blessings the 24 elders will have being Kings, etc. would it not?). They sing, “He has made us (not we ourselves) to be KINGS and priests…”

Do you see the 24 elders represent the Church (from Pentecost to the rapture which will happen at His appearing on the Feast of Trumpets)? Those coming out of the great tribulation and those after the tribulation do not become a part of the 24 elders or bride of Christ.

All the best in Christ,
yhshua

 

[ShirleyFord]

Hi again holden,

You wrote:

No, we are not resurrected when we are born again. We are made alive. That is not the reunion of our souls with our new bodies.

I agree that the the First Resurrection - when we are born again, when we are made alive spiritually, raised from spiritual death - is not the Second Resurrection: the reunion of our souls with our new bodies. The Second Resurrection will not and cannot happen until the Second Coming of Christ. And since He has not returned yet, we know that the Second Resurrection, the redemption of our bodies, is yet future.

Nevertheless, our First Resurrection is not in the future if we have truly been born again. Only those who as yet haven't been truly saved could we safely say that if in the future they turn to God and He saves them, then as of the present time, their First Resurrection then would be future. But as soon as they were saved then their spiritual resurrection would no longer be in the future. It would always be 'today', a present reality.

The Bible speaks of two resurrections:
(1) spiritual
(2) physical

The Bible speaks of two redemptions:
(1) spiritual
(2) physical

The Bible speaks of two salvations:
(1) spiritual
(2) physical

Spiritual resurrection, spiritual redemption, and spiritual salvation are all the same spiritual occurance. Likewise, physical resurrection, physical redemption, and physical salvation are all the same physical occurance.

There is a difference between spiritual resurrection, spiritual redemption and spiritual salvation and physical resurrection, physical redemption and physical salvation.

Spiritual Resurrection, Spiritual Redemption, Spiritual Salvation
(1) Only the spiritual part of us, our soul, is spiritually resurrected, spiritually redemed, spiritually saved.
(2) Our soul was dead in trespasses and sin because of Adam's sin while housed in a living body - 'dead men walking' as the old saying goes. Our dead soul needed to be made alive in order for it to be a living soul. Our dead soul needed to be resurrected. Our dead soul needed to be redeemed. Our dead soul needed to be saved.
(3) Only Jesus can raise the dead - a dead soul and a dead body. So in order for our soul to live, He, by His Spirit through faith, had to raise it from the dead as He quickened it, making it alive, making it like new, as though it had never been dead before. He is the Resurrection and the Life. He is the Redeemer. He is our Salvation.
(4) Spiritual resurrection, spiritual redemption, spiritual salvation is only available now, in this age, before the Second Coming of Christ. The Bible declares that spiritual salvation will no longer be available to anyone once our Lord returns. As God shut the door of Noah's ark before the flood came, the doors of Salvation will be shut tight when He Returns. Today is the Day of Salvation....Today is the accepted time.

Physical Resurrection, Physical Redemption, Physical Salvation
1) Only the physical part of us, our physical body, is physically resurrected, physically redemed, physically saved.
(2) Our physical body, which had been physically alive in this present age before we physically die, will need to be made alive in order for it to be a living body. Our dead body will need to be resurrected. Our dead body will need to be redeemed. Our dead body will need to be saved.
(3) Only Jesus can raise the dead - a dead soul and a dead body. So in order for our body to live, He, by our spiritually resurrection, the firstfruits of the Spirit by which He spiritually resurrected us with, He will raise our dead body from the dead as He quickens it, making it alive, making it like new, as though it had never been dead before. He is the Resurrection and the Life. He is the Redeemer. He is our Salvation.
(4) Physical resurrection, physical redemption, physical salvation is only available in the future, in the next age to come, at the Second Coming of Christ. The Bible declares that this physical resurrection, the physical redemption and salvation of our physical body, the second resurrection, will only be available to those who have been spiritually resurrected when our Lord returns.

Shirley

 

[Mark G.]

Really.. so he makes you worship him now and if you don't..he will kill you.. ? Has he demanded that you receive a mark on your right hand or on your forehead without which you can not buy or sell..?

Concerning the mark of the beast... a couple of things to concider... Can taking a mark tomorrow cause the fires of hell to burn any hotter than denying Christ today???

Where else do we see a mark on the hand and forehead...

Exod 13:9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.

Exod 13:16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Compairing the two, Exodus and Revelation, perhaps one should reconsider the symbolic nature of Revelation and understand it as a comitment to, or faith in, a system of government...

Paul does tell us that he will not be revealed or fully manifested until the restrainer (He who holds him back) is taken out of the way..

Whew, I have to be careful here as my comments on a related subject have been deleted once by the board administration ... (most of it was reinstated after my appeal)

NOTE TO THE MODERATOR: Again these are historical in nature and there are quotations from the encyclopedia Encarta... MY comments are minimal... I shall set my comments off so that you know... Thanks

II Th 2:6-8 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

********* my comments
The early church fathers watched for the fall of the Roman Empire after which the Antichrist would establish his reign.
********* end of my comments

Irenaeus (120-202)
(Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 25, paragraph 3; chapter 26, paragraph 1)
Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them.

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [Rome] shall be partitioned

Tertullian (145-220)
(Of the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 24)
Again, in the second epistle he [Paul] addresses them with even greater earnestness: ‘For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away,’ he means indeed of this present empire, ‘and that man of sin be revealed,’ that is to say, Antichrist, ‘the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?"

(The Apology, Chapter 32)
"There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im- pending over the whole earth-in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes--is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.46 We have no desire, then, to be overtaken by these dire events; and in praying that their coming may be delayed, we are lending our aid to Rome's duration. "


Hippolytus (170-236)
(Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, paragraph 28)
The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ.


Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386)
(Lecture 15, paragraphs 9,12,15)
Thus wrote Paul, and now is the ‘falling away’ ... now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and ‘have itching ears’ ... This therefore is ‘the falling away,’ and the enemy is soon to be looked for...

But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is now drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after these an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power...

So that he seateth himself in the temple of God."What temple then? He means, the Temple of the Jews which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are!.


John Chrysostom (347-407)
(Homilies on Second Thessalonians II 6-9)
For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work."He speaks here of Nero, as if he were the type of Antichrist. For he too wished to be thought a god. And he has well said, the mystery; that is, it worketh not openly, as the other, nor without shame. For if there was found a man before that time, he means, who was not much behind Antichrist in wickedness, what wonder, if there shall now be one? But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is noting to call for it. So indeed he also says here. Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way, then he shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exit himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God. For as the kingdoms before this were destroyed, for example, that of the Medes by the Babylonians, that of the Babylonians by the Persians, that of the Persians by the Macedonians, that of the Macedonians by the Romans: so will this also be by the Antichrist, and he by Christ, and it will no longer withhold. And these things Daniel delivered to us with great clearness.
Jerome (340-420)

(Letter #60to Heliodorus, paragraphs 16,17)
I shudder when I think of the catastrophes of our time. The Roman world is falling: yet we hold up our heads instead of bowing them. ... Rome’s army, once victor and Lord of the world, now trembles with terror at the sight of the foe"
(Letter #123to Ageruchia, paragraphs 16,17)
But what am I doing? Whilst I talk about the cargo, the vessel itself founders. He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near. Yes, Antichrist is near whom the Lord Jesus Christ ‘shall consume with the spirit of his mouth’. ... For thirty years the barbarians burst the barrier of the Danube and fought in the heart of the Roman Empire. Rome has to fight within her own borders not for glory but for bare life"

************ My comments
While the early church looked foward to the reign of antichrist the reformed Church of the Reformation era looked back upon history to see who was who and what was what...

As the preceding comments so clearly sound the warning concerning the coming of Antichrist, here begins a gap of commentary of nearly a thousand years.
************ End of my comments

"During this time, from the collapse of the Roman Empire in the West, around the 5th century, to the 15th century, The Roman church held incredible influence over the people of the empire. This Holy Roman Empire was a political entity in western europe for over a thousand years. By the 10th century its rulers were elected German kings, who usually sought, but did not always receive, imperial coronation by the popes in Rome.
The Holy Roman Empire was an attempt to revive the Western Roman Empire, whose legal and political structure deteriorated during the 5th and 6th centuries, to be replaced by independent kingdoms ruled by Germanic nobles. The Roman imperial office was vacant after the deposition of Romulus Augustulus in 476. During these turbulent times the traditional concept of a temporal realm coextensive with the spiritual realm of the church had been kept alive by the popes in Rome.

The papacy grew increasingly resentful of interference by secular and ecclesiastical authorities at Constantinople in the affairs and practices of the Western church. The consequent feud between the two divisions of the church attained critical proportions during the reign (717-41) of the Byzantine emperor Leo III, who sought to abolish the use of images in Christian ceremonies. Papal resistance to Leo's decrees culminated (730-32) in a rupture with Constantinople. After severance of its ties with the Byzantine Empire, the papacy nourished dreams of a revivified Western Empire. Some of the popes weighed the possibility of launching such an enterprise and assuming the leadership of the projected state. Lacking any military force or practical administration, and in great danger from hostile Lombards in Italy, the church hierarchy, abandoning the idea of a joint spiritual and temporal realm, seemed to have decided to confer imperial status on the then dominant western European power, the kingdom of the Franks. Several of the Frankish rulers had already demonstrated their fidelity to the church, and Charlemagne, who ascended the Frankish throne in 768, had displayed ample qualifications for the exalted office, notably by the conquest of Lombardy in 773 and by the expansion of his dominions to imperial proportions.

On December 25, 800, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne emperor. This act established both a precedent and a political structure that were destined to figure decisively in the affairs of central Europe. The precedent established the papal claim to the right to select, crown, and even depose emperors that was asserted, at least in theory, for nearly 700 years."

"Holy Roman Empire, Middle Ages," Microsoft (R) Encarta. (c) 1994 Funk & Wagnall's Corporation.

 

[Mark G.]

Continuation of my previous post


"Reformation, great 16th-century religious revolution in the Christian church, which ended the ecclesiastical supremacy of the pope in Western Christendom and resulted in the establishment of the Protestant churches. With the Renaissance that preceded and the French Revolution that followed, the Reformation completely altered the medieval way of life in Western Europe and initiated the era of modern history. Although the movement dates from the early 16th century, when Martin Luther first defied the authority of the church, the conditions that led to his revolutionary stand had existed for hundreds of years and had complex doctrinal, political, economic, and cultural elements."

"Reformation," Microsoft (R) Encarta. (c) 1994 Funk & Wagnall's Corporation.

Geneva Bible (1599 Calvin)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:7)
(6) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (7) only he who now (h) letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
(6) Even in the apostles time the first foundations of the apostolic seat were laid, but yet so that they deceived men. (7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it.
(h) He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire.

Matthew Henry (1706)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:7)
Concerning this we are to observe two things: (1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived. (2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail.

John Wesley (1754-1765)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:7)
He will surely be revealed; for the mystery - The deep, secret power of iniquity, just opposite to the power of godliness, already worketh. It began with the love of honour, and the desire of power; and is completed in the entire subversion of the gospel of Christ. This mystery of iniquity is not wholly confined to the Romish church, but extends itself to others also. It seems to consist of,
1) Human inventions added to the written word.
2) Mere outside performances put in the room of faith and love.
3) Other mediators besides the man Christ Jesus.

The two last branches, together with idolatry and bloodshed, are the direct consequences of the former; namely, the adding to the word of God. Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors, heathen or Christian; the kings, Goths or Lombards; the Carolingian or German emperors.


John Gill (1697-1771)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7)
though till the time came fixed by God for his appearance, the decree must be a bar in his way; since as there is a time for every purpose, nothing can come to pass till that time comes: but by that which withheld, let or hindered the open appearance of antichrist, were the Roman empire and emperors; these stood in his way, and while this empire lasted, and the emperors wore the imperial crown, and sat on the throne, and held the government in their hands, the popes could not come at the height of their ambition, dignity, and authority, nor shine in their glory; nor could the harlot of Babylon take her seat, and sit upon the seven hills of Rome until the Roman emperor was taken out of the way: this therefore hindered,
(verse 7) that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one: and which was done partly by Constantine the emperor receiving the Christian faith, whereby the Roman empire as Pagan ceased; and by increasing the riches of the church, and feeding the pride, ambition, and covetousness of the bishops, especially the bishop of Rome; and next by removing the seat of the empire from Rome to Byzantium, which he called Constantinople: here the Greek emperors continued in succession, and neither they themselves, nor even their exarchs, resided at Rome, but at Ravenna; so that way was made for antichrist to come to his seat, and there was nothing to rival and eclipse the grandeur, power, and glory of the Roman popes


Adam Clarke (1762-1832)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:7)
7; and that the power of the Roman emperors, and of the magistrates under them, was that which then, and during the succeeding ages, restrained the mystery of iniquity in its working, and the man of sin from revealing himself.


Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (1871)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:6)
6. now ye know--by my having told you. The power must have been one "known" to the Thessalonians. what withholdeth--that which holds him back; "keeps him in check": the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [OLSHAUSEN]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as "he who now letteth" refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [ALFORD]. The "what withholdeth" refers to the general hindrance; "he who now letteth," to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up. Romanism, as a forerunner of Antichrist, was thus kept in check by the Romanemperor (the then representative of the coercive power) until Constantine, having removed the seat of empire to Constantinople, the Roman bishop by degrees first raised himself to precedency, then to primacy, and then to sole empire above the secular power ... The elect Church and the Spirit cannot well be, as DE BURGH suggests, the withholding power meant; for both shall never be wholly "taken out of the way" (Matthew 28:20). However, the testimony of the elect Church, and the Spirit in her, are the great hindrance to the rise of the apostasy; and it is possible that, though the Lord shall have a faithful few even then, yet the full energy of the Spirit in the visible Church, counteracting the energy or "working" of "the mystery of lawlessness" by the testimony of the elect, shall have been so far "taken out of the way," or set aside, as to admit the manifestation of "the lawless one"; and so DE BURGH'S'S view may be right (Luke 18:8'Revelation 11:3-12'). This was a power of which the Thessalonians might easily "know" through Paul's instruction.

Barton Johnson (1891)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10)
Ye know now what withholdeth. They knew because Paul had told them when with them. We have not that advantage, but I believe that he told them that this development could not take place until pagan imperial Rome fell. We know that it did withhold, or prevent it. 7. For the mystery of iniquity. This revelation of the man of sin. It was a mystery, that is, something yet hidden. Doth already work. Causes are beginning to work which will lead to it. Only he who now letteth. He that hindereth must first be taken out of the way. There was no room for an arrogant spiritual power in Rome as long as imperial Rome continued to persecute the church. A persecuted church cannot be a haughty church. Two things were needful before the papal power could be developed; viz., the overthrow of paganism, and the removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome. When these things were done, it was free to seize the old Roman scepter. 8. Then shall that Wicked be revealed. After the hindering power is removed. Whom the Lord shall consume. The Wicked power will be destroyed by the Lord's coming, and will continue to exist, possibly, until that event. 9. Whose coming. That of the Wicked power. Is after the working of Satan. That is, it will deceive men as Satan does. Lying wonders. False miracles. 10. Deceivableness of unrighteousness. Unrighteous delusions which will be accepted by its votaries, them that perish. Those that perish, receive not the love of the truth. They have a disinclination to receive it.

James Burton Coffman (1980's)
(comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:6)
That which restraineth ...
This is viewed generally, by nearly all schools of interpreters, as being the Roman government. This is supported by the context in that it would explain why Paul spoke so guardedly of its being taken out of the way."


Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Markea]

Concerning the mark of the beast... a couple of things to concider... Can taking a mark tomorrow cause the fires of hell to burn any hotter than denying Christ today???

Not sure what that has to do with your prior comment saying that the beast is a present reality.. the Revelation says this..

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Is this a present reality in your life Mark.. ?

Remember.. those who had NOT worshiped the beast or his image were beheaded according to Revelation 20... ie, killed..

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi yeshuasavedme.
...
Thank you for the time you put in this.
All the best in Christ,
yhshua

Welcome -I can't respond to all you wrote at the time, but I'll get back to it.
The resurrection of the dead in Christ is of all the dead from righteous Abel until the beginning of the Day of the LORD; the great bulk of them before the seven years and the rest at the end of the seven years.

A friend believes that the dead in Christ include only those born again from the cross only, and not those righteous dead of the earth fom Abel to the cross; but it cannot be, for the atonement was offered once, for all, and those dead who were waiting for the promised Redeemer in Hades below before the cross were taken on high to be with Him, and they are the 'Other sheep' not of this fold, whom I also must bring'...

He descended to Hades and led captivity -the first death holding them -from the first one to die, Abel- until the last one to die just before the resurrection at the first trumpet (Numbers 10:1-7), until the adoption made possible in His shed blood atonement- captive.
They are all His, from Abel -on.

Jacob was only one of many types, and he did have to wait the week to get Rachel -and the tribulation is called a ‘week’ before the Messiah takes His kingdom and reigns.

Both Leah and Rachel had their wedding feasts, a week apart.

Joseph is another type -everything about Israel written is types and shadows; and Joseph had a Gentile bride whom you never see, back in his home that joined Pharaoh’s palace I think it did, but maybe i remember wrongly.



Israel being taken care of during the great famine that was world wide is another type of Israel during the last seven years of the great tribulation, also.

Remember the ‘fleeing’ of the woman, Israel, to the wilderness, where they have a place prepared for them for the thousand twelve hundred sixty days (three and a half prophetical years)? A bit of the typing is in Joseph being sent before them, after the brothers sold him as a slave -and claimed to the Father that he was ’dead’; while He was actually sent ahead by the Father above to keep them alive in the worldwide famine.

You don’t see those under that altar until they begin to be martyred, during the first seven years of the ‘Day of the LORD; and they have to wait for ‘the end of the week’, of seven years (also called just ‘an hour‘, in relation to the time of the rule of the beast over the earth), to be regenerated at the completion of the First Harvest of earth’s souls, which is at the end of the ‘week’ of seven years; when the First resurrection is fully complete.

And those on thrones are, for the one half, the twelve Apostles, who are regenerated, as Isaiah 26:19, shows us, along with Isaiah -who was writing the great prophecy of the ‘laqach‘ of the Church- just before the translation of the living congregation, which is just before the time that the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 26:19-21, through Isaiah 27:1-13, shows the order of events at the beginning of the Day of the LORD, which is one place the mystery Paul showed us is hidden in the Old Testament: Numbers 10:1-7 being another, Psalm 75:2,3 -in the Hebrew- another.

The ’resurrection of the dead in Christ’ and the ’laqach’ of the living congregation of the Church has to come at he beginning of the Day of the LORD for the antichrist to be revealed. He just cannot be revealed to the world until the ‘gathering all together, as eggs in a basket, of all the congregation of the LORD -in the air- of all living saints comes; for as long as they are the congregation of the LORD on earth, with His glory indwelling, the same Presence of His glory indwelling the congregation restrains the revealing of the final man of sin, according to Paul, for Paul received that teaching from the hidden mystery in the Old Testament of the ‘laqach’ of the Church before the revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God poured out on this earth.



the second trumpet blast called the rest of entire congregation of the LORD dwelling on earth, who are all the dead who died in faith from Abel to those living on earth till the beginning of the Day of the LORD -or else they could not be sitting on thrones in Revelation, for we are assured that they will not precede us in getting their regenerated bodies which shall be glorified. Jesus told the Apostles that ‘in the regeneration’ they would sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, and so they are regenerated and crowned with the crown of Life, that is, in their New Man body.

The first resurrection, which is equal to the harvest of this earth, was begun with the resurrection of Jesus Christ in His body; on the eve of First of Firstfruits; and those bodies of the dead Saints who came out of their graves, in their resurrected bodies, and were seen of many and walked about the city (them being, I believe, the rest of the requirement of the First of Firstfruits wave offering to offer in the created heavenly temple -which was the guarantee of the full harvest to come), were, together with the risen LORD, the First of Firstfruits; and the harvest is going come in, to be finished, at the end of the seven years -but the main harvest was begun at the beginning of the seven years, with the Isaiah 26:19-21, and Psalm 75;2 (in the original).

The High Priest could only go into the Holy of Holies once a year, where the Presence of glory dwelt, and only after washing and robing himself with the Holy garments of woven linen, of gold, ‘worm=scarlet, blue, and purple, and they represented the redeemed who would be able to enter after the final once for all offering of the New Man’s blood of atonement sprinkled on the Mercy Seat =His body, which would make us the ‘gold’ atoned for born again New Man…

The Church wasn’t typed by those High Priests who could enter the Holy of Holies once a year; but the New Man, born again in Spirit, was typed; which regeneration (new birth) is offered for each and every Adam being because of the blood sprinkled on His body on the cross; but offered to the nation of Israel, His human namesake and [former] keeper of His vineyard, first -and they’ll get it last.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Continuation of my previous post

...Respectfully
Mark G.

Hello MArk G-
The so called early Church fathers were not early, and were not fathers of what was laid long before they ever came into being: the Church, being built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the Chief cornerstone.

And the final AC is not Roman, and cannot be revealed until the 'laqach' of the Church, 'the gathering together to Him in the air' of those who are the congregation of the LORD, with His glory indwelling, on this earth since Pentecost.

In Isaiah 14, the king of Babylon =Iraq, today- is seen as the devil incarnate who tries to take Jerusalem and sit on the throne, there, as God.
Nebuchadnezzar did not fulfill this chapter, nor has this chapter ever been fulfilled -but it will be.

Mercy on Jacob


14For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will still choose Israel, and settle them in their own land. The strangers will be joined with them, and they will cling to the house of Jacob. 2 Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the Lord; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors.
Fall of the King of Babylon
3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:


"How the oppressor has ceased,
The golden* city ceased!
5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
The scepter of the rulers;
6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke,
He who ruled the nations in anger,
Is persecuted and no one hinders.
7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
They break forth into singing.
8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you,
And the cedars of Lebanon,
Saying, 'Since you were cut down,
No woodsman has come up against us.'


9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
'Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
And the sound of your stringed instruments;
The maggot is spread under you,
And worms cover you.'
The Fall of Lucifer


12 "How you are fallen from heaven,
O *Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


16 "Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'


18 "All the kings of the nations,
All of them, sleep in glory,
Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave
Like an abominable branch,
Like the garment of those who are slain,
Thrust through with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit,
Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial,
Because you have destroyed your land
And slain your people.
The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children
Because of the iniquity of their fathers,
Lest they rise up and possess the land,
And fill the face of the world with cities."
Babylon Destroyed


22 "For I will rise up against them," says the Lord of hosts,
"And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant,
And offspring and posterity," says the Lord.
23 "I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," says the Lord of hosts.
Assyria Destroyed


24 The Lord of hosts has sworn, saying,
"Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass,
And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:
25 That I will break the Assyrian in My land,
And on My mountains tread him underfoot.
Then his yoke shall be removed from them,
And his burden removed from their shoulders.
26 This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth,
And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations.
27 For the Lord of hosts has purposed,
And who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
And who will turn it back?"
Philistia Destroyed


28 This is the burden which came in the year that King Ahaz died.


29 "Do not rejoice, all you of Philistia,
Because the rod that struck you is broken;
For out of the serpent's roots will come forth a viper,
And its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent.
30 The firstborn of the poor will feed,
And the needy will lie down in safety;
I will kill your roots with famine,
And it will slay your remnant.
31 Wail, O gate! Cry, O city!
All you of Philistia are dissolved;
For smoke will come from the north,
And no one will be alone in his appointed times."


32 What will they answer the messengers of the nation?
That the Lord has founded Zion,
And the poor of His people shall take refuge in it.

 

[Mark G.]

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Is this a present reality in your life Mark.. ?

Remember.. those who had NOT worshiped the beast or his image were beheaded according to Revelation 20... ie, killed..

It may not be a reality in my life but to millions of other it may be... What is the beast but a government that demands to be worshiped as God... I'll just mention one beast and you figure out the rest CHINA.

What can I say... You can't see the "spiritual" fulfillment of Malichi 4:5. You can't see the "spiritual" connection between the church and Israel. You cant' see anything unless it is literal and of the flesh... There are two witnesses who are two olive trees and two lampstands... everyone looks at them only as men... The book of Revealtion does not mean what it says, it means what it means... Tell you what when you see two fire breathing men standing in the streets of Jerusalem... Give me a call...

Respectfully
Mark G.

 

[Markea]

It may not be a reality in my life but to millions of other it may be... What is the beast but a government that demands to be worshiped as God... I'll just mention one beast and you figure out the rest CHINA.

The scriptures refer to the beast as a man.. and 2 Thess 2 says that he is the man of sin, the son of perdition.. and both Revelation and 2 Thess 2 mention the coming of the Lord in connection with destroying him..

..but you go ahead and believe what you want to believe.. there are multitudes in Christendom who believe just as you do; teaching and preaching that this present age is the millennial kingdom of Christ.. that the first resurrection is past, and that satan is currently bound and unable to deceive the nations.. and they base all of this on Christ's first coming and yet Revelation 20 speaks in the context of Christ's future coming..? Strange isn't it..?

So go ahead and keep on embracing this..ignore the scriptural fact that Israel has been blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.. ignore the fact that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfulled.. and then take the volumes of scripture which speak prophetically and thematically of Israel.. and confound them all with the church of God..

And continue on in your thread here called Replacement Theology..

What can I say... You can't see the "spiritual" fulfillment of Malichi 4:5. You can't see the "spiritual" connection between the church and Israel. You cant' see anything unless it is literal and of the flesh... There are two witnesses who are two olive trees and two lampstands... everyone looks at them only as men... The book of Revealtion does not mean what it says, it means what it means... Tell you what when you see two fire breathing men standing in the streets of Jerusalem... Give me a call...

Oh but I can see a spiritual connection Mark.. Israel and the church of god have many things in common, for they're both a part of God's amazing and awesome work.. one is simply earthly, and the other is heavenly..

And remember.. the Word of God is not static... it is living and powerful..and it's a two-edged sword when it speaks.. I would caution you to be extremely careful not to limit it to one thing and then consider it done.. history books do that.. but not the word of God, for it is living, and it abides..

You continue on here in your thread Mark.. perhaps I'll pop in from time to time and read all your thoughts concerning how we're already in the millennium.. how you confuse the first resurrection of beheaded individuals with people being born again in this present age.. or how that satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations at this time.. etc etc..

For that is basically what you're preaching friend.. when you preach Replacement Theology.

 

[holdon]

Hi again holden,

You wrote:



I agree that the the First Resurrection - when we are born again

That is not called the first resurrection. The first resurrection is the real bodily resurrection as can be seen in Rev 20:5 (see also verse 4), where it is contrasted with "the rest of the dead did no live till the thousand years had been completed."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

QUOTE=holdon]That is not called the first resurrection. The first resurrection is the real bodily resurrection as can be seen in Rev 20:5 (see also verse 4), where it is contrasted with "the rest of the dead did no live till the thousand years had been completed."[/QUOTE]

Holdon is correct.

The resurrection is indeed the resurrection of the body, which body will be resurrected from the dust, from the grave, ‘translated’ from the elements that the LORD created in this creation in the beginning and reunited with the soul. Isaiah 26:19

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Job understood the resurrection of the body, and had faith in the promise given in Adam’s presence, in Genesis 3:15, and given to Abraham as a living oracle to act out and understand, in Genesis 22.

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

It is the ever-existing soul, made to inhabit a human body forever, that the LORD cleansed by His once for all time atoning blood, sprinkled upon His New Man, Firstborn, brother to Adam, human being body while it was bound to the altar, His cross: which body was represented by the pure gold Mercy Seat covering the Ark, in the created Holy of Holies, in the created heaven; and typed on earth in the pattern given to Moses.



The soul never ceases to exist, and the elements the LORD created in the first six days of creation never cease to exist; but the elements that were formed into a 'clay' vessel for the created soul-being, to inhabit, in the sixth day, are defiled and unfit for the Presence of glory to inhabit (in the inner sanctuary of it, the spirit formed within the soul for His habitation); which habitation makes the soul being a 'son of the Living God: and that clay vessel must be 'translated', 'reformed', 'dissolved' and 'regenerated' (just as the entire heavens and earth will be, when ‘’the elements, being on fire, melt with fervent heat and are reformed in the regeneration of them), to be made ‘new’ to be a fit vessel, holy and undefiled, for the ‘cleansed by the blood atonement’ soul to inhabit, which soul has the New spirit formed within, which is the ‘habitation’ for the Presence of glory to inhabit the cleansed soul as it was made for the purpose of in the beginning, to be a temple for the Presence of His glory.

The redemption is for the soul, to be bought back, and a New spirit formed within it, and in the resurrection, for the body, itself, to be regenerated in the dissolving and reforming of it, which happens in a moment, for both the resurrected from the dust bodies which are raised from the dust, and the translated bodies of the living Saints who are transformed instantly and taken to meet the LORD in the air; and glorified, then, with His presence in their entire being as Adam was in the beginning, when he was made 'son of God'.

The adoption is for the entire being, body, soul, and spirit. The body is to be raised complete, for those who are born again in spirit: as a body for the 'cleansed by the blood' of atonement, soul, to inhabit; which soul has the New spirit, given by Him at the cleansing and adoption of the soul being, formed within for His habitation of glory; which Presence of glory abiding within makes us sons of God, as Adam was in the beginning.

It's all about the redemption, the buying back, of the entire being, the human being, which was made body soul and spirit, in the image of the Living God: and the body, itself, was made as an exact 'image. type, pattern' of the body that the Living God is in, Himself in the second Person of the YHWH of hosts, for Adam was made an exact type of the image of the second Person of YHWH of hosts, who has always been the ‘YHWH YIREH’ =‘YHWH SEEN’.
Genesis 1;26-28; Romans 5:14.
The 'body' is highly valued because even it is made in His image; and the fallen dead 'one' spirit, (Malachi 2:15), inhabiting the body of clay -the 'Adam being'- was made within the soul for the Presence of Living God to inhabit, which habitation of glory made our being, "His son"=sons of God, and is intended to be remade for His habitation again -for the 'whosoever wills, that is- who are given the power to become sons of God by adoption in the New Man by believing on His name.