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Repentence vs. Penance

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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thereselittleflower said:
:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:


Ignoring the evidence provided is a logical fallacy according to the rules that govern debate. . . . .

No, now what is a logical fallacy is to assume that any evidence presented is valid evidence.

Maybe it is lost on some, but this forum is not a formal debating forum, and any such poster who demands that formal debating rules be followed is not the Mod, nor in authority to establish the rules in this forum.

Now, if any such poster can show us these "rules" that govern this forum to be the rules that are constatnly being demanded, then maybe there is some grounds to complain about. Until such time as that is proven any such complaining demands can be and should be acknowledged as nothing but an illegitimate attempt to exert an authority that any such poster does not have, and ignored.
 
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Adalbert

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dhuisjen2 said:
First of all, Splayd, a huge :amen: to all that you have said here!

But then Adalbert, when you display a painful level of ignorance and then get offended when someone's responses point out your ignorance, you really don't do yourself any favors.



Well first of all, I don't refer to my dog as "it", to say nothing of my children, but that's beside the point.

Second of all, I as a father do ask my children to make an effort to fix what they break and wash what they carelessly soil as part of the rearing process. For that matter I do the same thing as a school teacher.

Thirdly, there is a certain therapeutic value in "working out" the guilt one experiences in a number of situations; not that it is necessary to gain God's forgiveness, but it is frequently necessary to keep the person from psychologically beating up on him-/herself in more destructive ways. A skilled priest is well aware of this.

It might be therapeutic for you to let go of some hatred that seems to be based on how little you know about others!

Forgive me for taking such an agressive tack. God is still working on me, teaching me how to better relate to those whose refusal to learn aggravates me.

Peace, David

I will let Matt speak for me, since we agree on this matter.
Aside from that, as a school teacher, you should know something about English.
IT is a child
IT is a dog
IT is a ................ etc.
HE is a boy
SHE is a girl
IT is a dog......

"By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all, 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God," (Heb. 10:10-11). We can see that the Roman Catholic system of penance is an unbiblical, works based system that keeps the Roman Catholic in submission to the sacramental legislation of the mother Church. Instead of the Roman Catholic Church pointing to Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God, it teaches that a person must perform works to make himself right with God. Furthermore, we have seen at the Scriptures clearly teach that our position and righteousness with God is not based upon anything that we do. On the contrary, to the exclusion of our works the Scriptures clearly teach that we are justified before God by faith. In other words, it is by faith alone in Christ alone in his work alone that makes us right with God. There is no way that anyone is able to remove his sin through any of his sin-stained efforts.


The Roman Catholic Church, because it adds works to the finished work of Christ in order to be made right with God, thus preaches a false gospel.
http://www.carm.org/catholic/penance.htm

Christ does not require my penance in order to be justified. His sacrifice is a gift.
"And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed," (1 Pet. 2:24).

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).

The Scriptures teach us that Christ's blood cleanses us of ALL sin, not some, not part, but all. This includes our sins of the past, present, and future and it is not necessary to have our sins forgiven via our effort.

The New Saint Joseph Baltimore Catechism, Vol. 2, 1969, p. 199 says,
"The priest gives us a penance after confession that we may make some atonement to God for our sins, receive help to avoid them in the future, and make some satisfaction for the temporal punishment due to them."
What is amazing in this quote is that it is not Christ's sacrifice on the cross that is the focus of atonement for our sins, but the works of the individual via penance. This is in blatant contradiction to scripture which says that we are cleansed of our sins by the blood of Christ, not by our works.
AMEN!
 
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Adalbert

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
No, now what is a logical fallacy is to assume that any evidence presented is valid evidence.

Maybe it is lost on some, but this forum is not a formal debating forum, and TLF is not the Mod, nor in authority to establish the rules in this forum.

Now, if TLF can show us these "rules" that govern this forum to be the rules she keeps demanding, then maybe there is some grounds to complain about. Until such time as that is proven any such whining and complaining demands can be and should be acknowledged as nothing but an illegitimate attempt to exert an authority that TLF does not have, and ignored.
Thank you.
May I add that as a reasonably intelligent adult, it is my privilege to accept and reject any and all 'evidence', based on my decision to do so.
This seems lost on those who come with all the answers and who would think and speak for those who most certainly are able to think and speak for themselves.
 
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Splayd

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Adalbert - Given that neither you, dhuisjen2 or I are Catholic, your ideas about Catholic ideas seems to be an irrelevant response to that post.

I've outlined my understanding of what true penance really is and I've never claimed it's something we do to attain forgiveness. We understand what you think of what you think the catholics think. Is there room for my understanding of "penance" in your belief system?
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Adalbert said:
Thank you.
May I add that as a reasonably intelligent adult, it is my privilege to accept and reject any and all 'evidence', based on my decision to do so.
This seems lost on those who come with all the answers and who would think and speak for those who most certainly are able to think and speak for themselves.

You are welcome, and I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Simply because someone holds up something they claim to be "evidence", does not neccessarily make it so, no matter how much they scream and stamp their feet against the floor.

Furthermore, since this is not a formal debating forum, the "rules" that one would normally follow in that format are not applicable, as is evidenced by the great number of Roman Catholics who constantly make unsubstantiated dogmatic assertions, and when challenged simply ignore them.

What happens most often, is demands for adhering to the "rules of debate" are generally a one way street, demanding something most Roman Catholics are not willing to do themselves.

Where I come from we have an old saying that goes like this, "Before you come demanding I clean up my backyard, first clean up your own."

I think Jesus said something practically identical which is applicable in the case of those making illegitmate demands of "debating rules", that goes as follows;

"Why do you look to remove a speck of dust from another's eye, when you have a plank in your own. First, take that huge plank out of your own eye, then you can see clearly to remove the speck from another's eye."
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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Splayd said:
Adalbert - Given that neither you, dhuisjen2 or I are Catholic, your ideas about Catholic ideas seems to be an irrelevant response to that post.

I've outlined my understanding of what true penance really is and I've never claimed it's something we do to attain forgiveness. We understand what you think of what you think the catholics think. Is there room for my understanding of "penance" in your belief system?

While I understand what you are getting at, I think it important to realize that the context of the OP is one that is of examination of the Roman Catholic concept of "pennance" verses the Biblical concept of "repentance", which are very different concepts.

That is what "Adalbert" is addressing, rightly so.
 
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lionroar0

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Adalbert said:
You are so right. The indwelling Spirit of God convinces us of our error and leads us to repentance. We confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive them.
When my child tells me it is sorry for being bad, I forgive the offense. I don't tell it to perform certain works for this forgiveness to take effect and it does not have to do works to get this forgiveness. Am I better than God?





That is also the Catholic understanding of it. We do not do certain things for forgiveness to take effect. The idea of penance is two fold. One to throw away the old and put on the new to redirect ourselves away from sin to God through prayer. Forgiveness has already taken place. The natural progression is to pray.

Also are you saying that you just forgave your child and did not tell your child not to do that again? Or give your some kind instruction to change their conduct? Are you saying that you just forgave your child and did nothing to change their conduct and you just let your child carry on?


Peace
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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The early church exercised penance as a means of reconciliation and restoration back into communion those whom had been put out of communion in accordance with Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians and instructions to "restore the violator" in 2 Corinthians.

But the early church in no way held the concept of "penance" as was later developed in Roman Catholicism by error building upon error expotentially over time.

The Council of Trent teaches that Christ instituted the priesthood for two primary functions: to forgive sins and to administer the sacrament of the eucharist. It declares that through confession of sin to a priest, by his absolution and performance of the prescribed penance, an individual can receive forgiveness of sins. The Roman Church teaches that sin requires that satifaction be made to God and this is achieved through penance and good works, through the enduring of sufferings in purgatory and through indulgences which are authorized by the pope. Along with its teaching on the eucharist, the Roman Catholic teaching on confession and penance hits at the heart of the Reformation debate. It was the indulgence controversy which first fueled it. It began with a criticism of that particular practice and then to a criticism of the theology which was foundational to it and from there to a critique of the whole system of works and merit which had developed throughout the centuries. The controversy, as with the eucharist, centers around the whole issue of the meaning and nature of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that justification, rather than being a judicial declaration of God based on the imputed righteousness of Christ and received by faith, is, in fact, a process which is dependent upon infused grace which can be lost by committing serious sin. Should that happen, forgiveness must be sought and the state of justification regained. Forgiveness for sin is mediated through the Church and the sacrament of Confession and Penance. According to the Church of Rome penitential works are meritorious before God who accepts such works as a payment for the temporal punishment due to sin. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that men can make atonement for their own sins by making satisfaction for them through these works of penance and thereby merit God’s mercy and forgiveness and justification. The following are the teachings of the Council of Trent:
Canon IX. If anyone saith, that the sacramental absolution of the priest is not a judicial act, but a bare ministry of pronouncing and declaring sins to be forgiven to him who confesses; provided only he believe himself to be absolved, or (even though) the priest absolve not in earnest, but in joke; or saith, that the confession of the penitent is not required, in order that the priest may be able to absolve him: let him be anathema.
Canon XII. If any one saith, that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them: let him be anathema.
Canon XIII. If any one saith, that the satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, alms–deeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life: let him be anathema.
Canon XIV. If any man saith, that the satisfactions, by which penitents redeem their sins through Jesus Christ, are not a worship of God, but traditions of men, which obscure the doctrine of grace, and the true worship of God, and the benefit itself of the death of Christ: let him be anathema.
Note that Trent states that satisfaction is made to God through the works of penance and that through these works men redeem their sins. John Hardon affirms these teachings in these words:
Penance means repentance or satisfaction for sin. If we expect God’s forgiveness we must repent. Penance is necessary because we must expiate and make reparation for the punishment which is due our sins...Christ instituted this sacrament to give us a ready and assured means of obtaining remission for the sins committed after baptism...A person must be in a state of grace to merit divine mercy for his venial sins...Satisfaction must be made for sins already forgiven because normally some—and even considerable—temporal punishment is still due, although the guilt has been removed...We make satisfaction for our sins by every good act we perform in a state of grace but especially by prayer, penance and the practice of charity...All prayer merits satisfaction for sin...The patience acceptance of trials or humiliations sent by God is expiatory. Our works of satisfaction are meritorious if they are done while in a state of grace...Sacramental satisfaction is the penitential work imposed by a confessor in the confessional in order to make up for the injury done to God and atone for the temporal punishment due to sin already forgiven. The penitent is obliged to perform the penance imposed by the priest, and deliberate failure to perform a penance imposed for mortal sin is gravely sinful...Sins can also be exipiated through indulgences [SIZE=-1](John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden: Image, 1981, #1320, 1322, 1386, 1392, 1394).[/SIZE]
In addition, Ludwig Ott explains "penance" suscintly;

"By sacramental satisfaction is understood works of penance which are imposed on the penitent in atonement for the temporal punishment for sins" [SIZE=-1](Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), p. 434).[/SIZE]

By the use of the words atonement, expiation, reparation, satisfaction, redeeming sin and merit the Roman Catholic teaching on penance hits right at the heart of the whole issue of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And what the Church of Rome is obviously saying by its teaching is that men must supplement the work of atonement done by the Lord Jesus on the Cross by their own works of atonement to satisfy the justice of God and to merit justification and the reward of heaven. But such teaching completely undermines the sufficiency of the atonement of Jesus Christ by adding human works as a supplement to his work. This is a serious departure from the gospel and the teaching of Scripture on the forgiveness of sins. The early Church knew nothing of the doctrine of auricular confession, penance, purgatory or indulgences.

In the early Church repentance and faith were the two basic conditions of baptism. Initially, repentance carried the idea of a forsaking of sin and the world and self and the giving of oneself wholly to Christ to follow him. The idea of repentance as ‘penance’, that is, as consisting of human works by which one satisfied God’s justice for personal sin was unknown.
The writings of the early Church Fathers are full of exhortations to holy living and appeals to the readers to prove the validity of their faith by good works. These writings clearly teach that true saving faith is evidenced in good works and a holy life. But they do not teach that good works are in any way meritorious in salvation. On the contrary, they point to Christ himself as the source of salvation and emphasize repentance, faith, and baptism as the means of appropriating that salvation and of holy living as the natural result and evidence of true conversion. Clement of Rome, for example, clearly states that forgiveness and salvation are gifts of God given completely independent of human works. Clement makes these comments about justification by faith:

"All of them therefore were all renowned and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the righteous actions which they had wrought, but through his will; and therefore we who by his will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not made righteous by ourselves, or by our wisdom or understanding or piety or the deeds which we have wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, by which Almighty God has justified all men from the beginning of the world; to him be glory for ever and ever. Amen" (J.B. Lightfoot, The Apostolic Fathers, The Epistle of S. Clement to the Corinthians, 49, 32

Clement renunciates any thought of men being able to justify themselves before God and merit his grace on the basis of their own works. Justification, according to Clement, comes by faith in the person of Christ. He presents Christ as the one who has made a substitutionary atonement and his blood is the sole basis upon which men are justified and receive forgiveness, which is appropriated by repentance and faith. A large portion of his letter is very similar to the epistle of James in that he appeals to his readers to walk in holiness before God and in love for their fellow Christians.

Clement’s teaching is a fair summary of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers as a whole. There is no mention in the writings of Ignatius, The Didache, Clement or Polycarp, or the writings of Justin Martyr or Irenaeus of confession of sins to a priest or anyone other than God himself, of penance, purgatory or indulgences. The whole system of sacramental forgiveness devised by the Roman Church can find no affirmation in these early writings.
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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lionroar0 said:
That is also the Catholic understanding of it. We do not do certain things for forgiveness to take effect.


The teachings of Trent and the RCC contradicts that assertion.

"Penance means repentance or satisfaction for sin. If we expect God’s forgiveness we must repent. Penance is necessary because we must expiate and make reparation for the punishment which is due our sins...Christ instituted this sacrament to give us a ready and assured means of obtaining remission for the sins committed after baptism...A person must be in a state of grace to merit divine mercy for his venial sins...Satisfaction must be made for sins already forgiven because normally some—and even considerable—temporal punishment is still due, although the guilt has been removed...We make satisfaction for our sins by every good act we perform in a state of grace but especially by prayer, penance and the practice of charity...All prayer merits satisfaction for sin...The patience acceptance of trials or humiliations sent by God is expiatory. Our works of satisfaction are meritorious if they are done while in a state of grace...Sacramental satisfaction is the penitential work imposed by a confessor in the confessional in order to make up for the injury done to God and atone for the temporal punishment due to sin already forgiven. The penitent is obliged to perform the penance imposed by the priest, and deliberate failure to perform a penance imposed for mortal sin is gravely sinful...Sins can also be exipiated through indulgences." [SIZE=-1](John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden: Image, 1981, #1320, 1322, 1386, 1392, 1394).[/SIZE]
 
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lionroar0

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Adalbert said:
Thank you.
May I add that as a reasonably intelligent adult, it is my privilege to accept and reject any and all 'evidence', based on my decision to do so.
This seems lost on those who come with all the answers and who would think and speak for those who most certainly are able to think and speak for themselves.

And all that has been given is your own independent and fallable thoughts on penance.

Peace
 
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lionroar0

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
The teachings of Trent and the RCC contradicts that assertion.

"Penance means repentance or satisfaction for sin. If we expect God’s forgiveness we must repent. Penance is necessary because we must expiate and make reparation for the punishment which is due our sins...Christ instituted this sacrament to give us a ready and assured means of obtaining remission for the sins committed after baptism...A person must be in a state of grace to merit divine mercy for his venial sins...Satisfaction must be made for sins already forgiven because normally some—and even considerable—temporal punishment is still due, although the guilt has been removed...We make satisfaction for our sins by every good act we perform in a state of grace but especially by prayer, penance and the practice of charity...All prayer merits satisfaction for sin...The patience acceptance of trials or humiliations sent by God is expiatory. Our works of satisfaction are meritorious if they are done while in a state of grace...Sacramental satisfaction is the penitential work imposed by a confessor in the confessional in order to make up for the injury done to God and atone for the temporal punishment due to sin already forgiven. The penitent is obliged to perform the penance imposed by the priest, and deliberate failure to perform a penance imposed for mortal sin is gravely sinful...Sins can also be exipiated through indulgences." [SIZE=-1](John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden: Image, 1981, #1320, 1322, 1386, 1392, 1394).[/SIZE]

HOw about posting the source and the whole quote?

Peace
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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lionroar0 said:
It's more like your own minconception on the teachings oc the CC.

Peace

For the sake of argument, I will assume that Ludwig Ott is a bit more of an authority on Roman Catholic dogma than yourself.

His statement on "penance" disproves your misleading assertion;

"By sacramental satisfaction is understood works of penance which are imposed on the penitent in atonement for the temporal punishment for sins" [SIZE=-1](Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), p. 434).[/SIZE]

Ludwig Ott further states;

"The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin."(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma)
 
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lionroar0

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Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:
For the sake of argument, I will assume that Ludwig Ott is a bit more of an authority on Roman Catholic dogma than yourself.

His statement on "penance" disproves your misleading assertion;

"By sacramental satisfaction is understood works of penance which are imposed on the penitent in atonement for the temporal punishment for sins" [SIZE=-1](Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), p. 434).[/SIZE]

How about posting the source?

What's the web address?

Peace
 
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Augustine_Was_Calvinist

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lionroar0 said:
HOw about posting the source and the whole quote?

Peace

I did.

If one pays attention, the source is cited at the end of the quote, " [SIZE=-1](John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism [/SIZE]

Now, maybe you would like to be kind enough to cite some sources that support your assertions of "penance" being the same as the Biblical/Protestant meaning of "repentance", or, do Roman Catholics demand things of others that they are not willing to do themselves?
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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In Roman Catholicism the model is commonly called "synergism".

This is the idea that the Christian must cooperate with Grace.

It's worth pointing out that Roman Catholics understand Grace to be a substance poured into believers at justification and that it can be lost and then regained by sacramental confession and acts of penance.

The Protestant view is that Grace is, fundamentally, an attitude of God toward His people; it is His favor toward the church.

We sometimes use the word as a kind of shorthand for the benefits of the relationship that favor implies. Thus, we describe justification as 'a grace', or the authority to preach the Gospel, or, more mundanely, perhaps just the gift of prayer and suchlike.

But Grace itself is best described in the timeworn expression: The unmerited favor of God toward sinners.

This cannot be earned and it cannot be lost once given. God does not withdraw His favor because His favor rests upon the work of Christ which is of eternal benefit and infinite value.

"Doing penance" is like making restitution: it's A Good Thing To Do, but it won't justify you; that is, it won't make you right with God. Jesus has already done that.

The reason for expressing sorrow for sin is not to twist God's arm and return to His favor, but rather because such expressions are the natural response of a sinning heart freely forgiven in the grace and mercy of God.

Where the Bible encourages us to do this, it is merely impressing upon us the truth that the absence of such fruit is proof that we are, in fact, unrepentant and devoid of the Holy Spirit.

More positively it is a simple reminder that we have been called not only to call Jesus Savior but also to obey Him as Lord.
 
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