Repentence vs. Penance

[Adalbert]

For many years, we incorrectly referred to the Sacrament as Confession or the Sacrament of Penance.

I do recommend www.newadvent.org for good info on the Catholic Church.

For those of you who do not like going directly to the source, there is a very fine book available called, "Catholicism for Dummies".

Catholicism for Dummies?
If I knew nothing about the RCC, that would most certainly keep me from wanting to know.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Catholicism for Dummies?
If I knew nothing about the RCC, that would most certainly keep me from wanting to know.

A popular series of books that cover MANY subjects, know as "..... for Dummies" books, happens to have one on Catholicism. I don't understand why that would stop someone from wanting to knonw about the subject.

It is the same series that I have a book on DOS called "DOS for Dummies" . .it is a most educational and informative book, puts information easily at your fingertips, easy to find and use as a handy reference. . .


This extensive and popular series that out a book on the subject. . . .

Have you ever had the opportunity to read a book from this very popular and informative series?





Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

"Jesus paid it all"

Is all-encompassing. We need to do no penance, it was done for us.
God bless you.

(feels like head htting a brick wall)




Peace

 

[Adalbert]

Responding to the OP here . .

It is not repetance vs penance . .

Penance is a part of repentance. You cannot have true repentance without penance.

I used a different verse, but the information is the same:

43 Acts Of Apostles 2
38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peace

Ah, that is not what Peter said: Acts 2:38
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He would never say 'do penance', since he knew it had been done for everyone, forever, by Christ. It is by HIS STRIPES we are healed, never by our own.

[/FONT]

 

[thereselittleflower]

By the way, the post I am refering to that seems to be being ignored is

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=24464595&postcount=12



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

Ah, that is not what Peter said: Acts 2:38
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

He would never say 'do penance', since he knew it had been done for everyone, forever, by Christ. It is by HIS STRIPES we are healed, never by our own.

[/FONT]

Interesting that you chopped out the proof I provided from the Greek scholar Thayer that totally contradicts what you just said.



Peace

 

[Adalbert]

On the other hand:



Now, in Matt 3:2, John says: ""Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

The word is used 27 times in the NT while "repentance" is used 20 times.

It NEVER means to make "An act of self-mortification or devotion performed voluntarily to show sorrow for a sin or other wrongdoing."

It always means, "to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins"

Why is this important?

Well, Lynn told us in the OP but it bears repeating:

The Bible nowehre tells us that we must earn God's mercy or merit His favor. Everywhere it tells us the opposite, that while the wages of sin are death, the free gift of God is eternal life..

The Bible tells us to "bear fruit in keeping with repentance" but this is clearly not meritorious, it is an encouragement to behave in a way that is consistent with our change of heart, that behavior being understood as the product, not the cause of our standing with God and the repentance so much a part of it.

You are correct. We must be sorry for our sins and ask forgiveness. That is the natural way in a relationship, including earthly ones.
But, Jesus did the penance. He is the one who paid the price. Repentance is our privilege, penance is HIS alone.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You are correct. We must be sorry for our sins and ask forgiveness. That is the natural way in a relationship, including earthly ones.
But, Jesus did the penance. He is the one who paid the price. Repentance is our privilege, penance is HIS alone.

(feels like head hitting a brick wall)


Ignoring the evidence provided is a logical fallacy according to the rules that govern debate. . . . .

 

[Adalbert]

No, Christ never did penance . . . Christ suffered for our sins, paid the penalty for our sins .. .

Penance has to do with REPENTANCE, Christ never repented.




Well, the writers of the scriptures stand against such a notion . . for they say otherwise.




Penance doesn't "pay" for our sins any more than turning away from sin and repenting inwardly "pays" for our sins.

You do not have a proper concept of repentance or penance. Did you read my first poist above from yesterday?



Obviously, you do not understand what penance is or its relationship to repentance, or that for there to be geunine repentance, it must necessarily include penance.

This is what the GREEK word translated 'repentance' actually means and conveys . . .


Take part of it away, and you no longer have repentance.



Peace

Penance is compensating for an offense, an offense worthy of penalty.

Christ paid the penalty for our offenses. Human penance not necessary. That is biblical.

As for penance in the Catholic sense? It is contrary to the bible, which speaks of repentance. The two are not reconcilable. Obviously!

 

[Ethan_Fetch]

Theresa, I didn't ignore it at all...

I believe I got into the issue of "bearing fruit in keeping with repentance", this should satisfy your need for reference to "outward conduct"...

I said it's a product, not the cause of our salvation.

To make John the Baptist or any of the other instances of "metanoia" mean "do penance" would be to reverse that and do violence to the free nature of Grace.

 

[Adalbert]

Oh for goodness sakes! Why on earth would anyone not want to know about Catholicism simply because of a series of books that cover MANY subjects, know as "..... for Dummies" books, happens to have one on Catholicism?

It is the same series that I have a book on DOS called "DOS for Dummies" . .it is a most educational and informative book, puts information easily at your fingertips, easy to find and use as a handy reference. . .


All I can say to such a respnse is wow! I never heard of anyone not wanting to learn about a subject simply because this extensive and popular series put out a book on the subject. . . .


This is a new one on me. . . .but carry on . .. .



Peace

It is offensive no matter what the subject. Do you like being called dummie just because you don't know something? You know very well you are not a dummie, and ignorance on a subject does not mean you are one.

 

[Adalbert]

Peace

I find this response disrespectful.

 

[Splayd]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:
We really aren't so far apart on many of these issues!

The more I research other churches the more I see a tendency to overcompensate for error we see in other denominations. They in turn tend to disassociate themselves from the overcompensation and we look further apart than we actually are.

In the area of Penance verse Repentance I recognise that true repentance is as outlined earlier. It's not sufficient to simply acknowledge our sin. That alone is worthless and can even be dangerous unless it's accompanied by remorse. We need to be sorry for our sin if it's to mean anything... AND if we really are sorry, we'll try to rectify the situation and avoid committing that sin again.

Consider a practical example. I steal $20. Later on my conscience kicks in (ie: the Holy Spirit convicts me - for those who prefer Christian talk). I realise it was a sin and I tell God I'm sorry. Should it end there? Is that enough? I'm forgiven!
NO - that's not nearly enough if I'm truly sorry. I should return the $20 and apologise to the person as well. There might even be other consequences that I should be prepared to accept as result of my actions.

Consider another example. I have a problem with drug addiction. Do I continue to shoot up every day, feel guilty, tell God how sorry I am and let the cycle continue? Heaven forbid! I need to break the cycle. I need to put in place measures to prevent this from continuing.

These extra steps I'm mentioning are what I perceive true penance to be. Historically - the Catholic church made a mess of penance (bear in mind that this history is prior to Luther and common to us all to some extent) and incorporated things like whipping oneself etc... as a means of penance. We've all come a long way since then - Catholics and Protestants both, but I think we're generally missing the mark still. It seems to me that some Protestants recognise error in the way penance is practiced by some in the RCC as a pointless means of attaining forgiveness and kinda overcompensated by ditching it altogether. Both groups are in error, even within their tradition most of the time, so arguing against them as if it's a doctrinal issue of their church is generally a moot point.

True Penance is a part of True Repentance.

 

[Adalbert]

Interesting that you chopped out the proof I provided from the Greek scholar Thayer that totally contradicts what you just said.



Peace

I've never heard of Thayer, but I have heard of Jesus Christ, the ONE who paid the price for my sins. So I don't have to do anything other than .........repent and be baptized.

Interesting you did not make a note of your error regarding what Peter said.

 

[johnd]

in light of galatians 3:24-25 / romans 3:31 repentance is to turn away from sin but not under our own power but by the power of God's grace.

 

[Splayd]

in light of galatians 3:24-25 / romans 3:31 repentance is to turn away from sin but not under our own power but by the power of God's grace

I agree with johnd, but our understanding could still be completely different things. Expand your comment a little so we know what you're saying. For example should we not book into rehab if we have a problem with drug addiction?
​

 

[JJB]

Is anyone you know more of a Greek geek than Thayer was?

Look at my post above.


Peace

I've never met Mr. Thayer, so I wouldn't know if he was a Greek geek or not.

 

[Adalbert]

in light of galatians 3:24-25 / romans 3:31 repentance is to turn away from sin but not under our own power but by the power of God's grace.

You are so right. The indwelling Spirit of God convinces us of our error and leads us to repentance. We confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive them.
When my child tells me it is sorry for being bad, I forgive the offense. I don't tell it to perform certain works for this forgiveness to take effect and it does not have to do works to get this forgiveness. Am I better than God?

 

[Splayd]

You are so right. The indwelling Spirit of God convinces us of our error and leads us to repentance. We confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive them.
When my child tells me it is sorry for being bad, I forgive the offense. I don't tell it to perform certain works for this forgiveness to take effect and it does not have to do works to get this forgiveness. Am I better than God?

I agree with you for the most part, but just as the Holy Spirit leads us to confess our sins, He leads us beyond that too.

I used to have a problem with gambling. Try with all of my might I couldn't shake my addiction. Why??? Because I was trying to do it in my own strength. I confessed it to God. I was sincerely sorry and frankly I believe He forgave me... BUT I stumbled again and then again and again. Why??? Because, even though I'd acknowledged the Holy Spirit's prompting to confess, I was ignoring His prompting to set preventative measures in place. This is the penance bit and we can't get this right on our own either.

Sin is like a sickness. When we get sick we're meant to pray about it. We're meant to get the elders of the church to pray for us too... but we're not to avoid going to the doctor altogether. That's crazy thinking. Very often God uses the doctors in our healing. Likewise when we Sin, we're meant to acknowledge, we're meant to ask for God's forgiveness but once that's done and we're forgiven, we still might need advice, help, some degree of accountability to help us avoid falling to that temptation again.

Apart from that - I'm also a parent, so I can relate to your analogy. If one of my children sincerely apologises for something, I readily and unconditionally forgive them too. That's not to say I don't also ask them to make amends. If my son were to apologise for making a mess, I'd forgive him outright... but I'd still ask him to clean it up. If it's a big job I'd help him. My forgiveness wouldn't be dependant on him doing it right. He's already forgiven, but it helps him understand accountability and repercussions. It helps him grow and avoid such mistakes later. Mind you - if he turns around and says "Forget that dad. I'm sorry I made the mess, but I'm not cleaning it up." I'd question his sincerity. Wouldn't you?

 

[dhuisjen2]

First of all, Splayd, a huge to all that you have said here!

When my child tells me it is sorry for being bad, I forgive the offense. I don't tell it to perform certain works for this forgiveness to take effect and it does not have to do works to get this forgiveness. Am I better than God?

Well first of all, I don't refer to my dog as "it", to say nothing of my children, but that's beside the point.

Second of all, I as a father do ask my children to make an effort to fix what they break and wash what they carelessly soil as part of the rearing process. For that matter I do the same thing as a school teacher.

Thirdly, there is a certain therapeutic value in "working out" the guilt one experiences in a number of situations; not that it is necessary to gain God's forgiveness, but it is frequently necessary to keep the person from psychologically beating up on him-/herself in more destructive ways. A skilled priest is well aware of this.

It might be therapeutic for you to let go of some hatred that seems to be based on how little you know about others!

Forgive me for taking such an agressive tack. God is still working on me, teaching me how to better relate to those whose refusal to learn aggravates me.

Peace, David