Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Clare73]

Hebrews 8:13, " When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." But it hasn't disappeared yet.

So the sacrifices, etc. are still in force?

God does not have two different peoples and a different plan for each.
Nowhere is that found presented in NT teaching, which is the rule of faith.
God has one people, true Israel, which is the one olive tree, going all the way back to Abraham, made up of OT and NT believers, the church.

Christ-rejecting Israel is not true Israel, and are not God's people. They have been cut off the one olive tree, the people of God (Romans 11:17). God has no people outside Christ, which in the NT is the church.

The destiny of Israel, if they do not persist in unbelief, is to be grafted back into the one olive tree with NT believers, the church (Romans 11:23).

God does not have two people and two plans. God has one people--those in Christ, and one plan--to prepare them, spotless and without blemish, to present as a bride to his one and only Son.

Revelation 22:14-15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!"

Now...

"For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Romans 2:12 => Still in effect <=

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are [present tense] under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God." Romans 3:19

"For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law [present tense], but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16

"But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6 This applies to Christian believers only, not Jews.

"To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law." [present tense] Romans 9:20

"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” [present tense] Galatians 3:10

And there are more. The First Covenant, expressed in "The Law" is still in effect for all who are either a) Jews or b) Gentiles who choose to put themselves under the law.

Read your Bible!

 

[Clare73]

I agree, like the scriptures talk about, if you are led by the spirit you are not under the law.

Anticipating an issue here, some may say that under the law means under the curse of the law.

I think the scriptures use under the law to mean obligated to do the things in the law.

It does mean not under the curse of the law.

But we are still not free to violate the Decalogue (Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10).

 

[Clare73]

I like to see it this way, in order to resolve that paradox.

That paradox is of one's own making.

God's words remain forever. What God abrogated or abolished was our obligation to do the things in the law.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and I believe he did that in some way related to his death, resurrection, and sending of the holy Spirit.

 

[pescador]

Hebrews is quoting from the book of Jeremiah. That was written before Christ came and established the new covenant.

The first was declared obsolete back then. In other words, of no value. Just because it has not vanished away does not mean it is still active.

I don't understand the sophistry of the last sentence. Show me anywhere in Scripture that the Old Covenant has been repealed...

The Jews still live under the Old Covenant. Don't you know that??

 

[pescador]

I like to see it this way, in order to resolve that paradox.

God's words remain forever. What God abrogated or abolished was our obligation to do the things in the law.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and I believe he did that in some way related to his death, resurrection, and sending of the holy Spirit.

"What God abrogated or abolished was our obligation to do the things in the law" This applies only to Christians, those who have accepted Christ's sacrifice that fulfilled the law's requirements.

 

[pescador]

It does mean not under the curse of the law.

But we are still not free to violate the Decalogue (Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10).

Sorry, but Paul disagrees with you... "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code. Romans 7:6 (and elsewhere). " To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law)" 1 Corinthians 9:20b

Galatians 5:18 clearly states, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

 

[Leaf473]

It does mean not under the curse of the law.

But we are still not free to violate the Decalogue (Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10).

Looks like that's where we see it differently.

I think the ten commandments are fulfilled, along with the rest of the law.

Of course, as Christians are led by the spirit, they will end up doing many of the same things as someone trying to keep the ten commandments.

But it's kind of like if my doctor says to avoid pork. In doing that, I would also be keeping one of the dietary laws.

But I wouldn't think of myself as keeping the dietary law, just following the doctor's instructions.

 

[Leaf473]

That paradox is of one's own making.

Well, assuming that
Standing

Is the opposite of
Abolished or abrogated,

That looks like a paradox to me, yes.

 

[Leaf473]

"What God abrogated or abolished was our obligation to do the things in the law" This applies only to Christians, those who have accepted Christ's sacrifice that fulfilled the law's requirements.

I'm inclined to agree with that, it is those who are led by the spirit that are not under the law.

 

[Nathan@work]

I don't understand the sophistry of the last sentence. Show me anywhere in Scripture that the Old Covenant has been repealed...

The Jews still live under the Old Covenant. Don't you know that??

I do know they still consider themselves under the old covenant, does not mean they are correct.

Matthew 23:37-38 (ESV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate.

God signified this when He tore the temple curtain in two. The veil was there to separate the Ark of the covenant from the people. Tearing it meant the covenant was no longer in effect.

God is not a dual covenant God.

 

[pescador]

I'm inclined to agree with that, it is those who are led by the spirit that are not under the law.

Paul agrees with you! 8^)

Seriously, I can't begin to understand why Christians (who should know better) still believe they are under the law. Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace."

Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

 

[pescador]

I do know they still consider themselves under the old covenant, does not mean they are correct.

Matthew 23:37-38 (ESV) “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate.

God signified this when He tore the temple curtain in two. The veil was there to separate the Ark of the covenant from the people. Tearing it meant the covenant was no longer in effect.

God is not a dual covenant God.

Read your Bible! The Jews are still under the law.

Romans 4:16, "For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"

Galatians 3:10, "For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Present tense!

Try telling a believing Jew that the Torah has no validity. Let me know how you make out (if you're still alive).

 

[pescador]

See my previous post...

 

[Leaf473]

Paul agrees with you! 8^)

Seriously, I can't begin to understand why Christians (who should know better) still believe they are under the law. Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no mastery over you, because you are not under law but under grace."

Romans 7:6, "But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code."

Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

and Galatians also says, "Tell me, you that desire to be under the law..."

I think there is a natural human desire to want to be under a written set of rules.

I also noticed the rise of the Hebrew Roots movement in the last couple decades.

 

[pescador]

and Galatians also says, "Tell me, you that desire to be under the law..."

I think there is a natural human desire to want to be under a written set of rules.

I also noticed the rise of the Hebrew Roots movement in the last couple decades.

I totally agree that there is a natural human desire to want to be under a written set of rules. It's hard to understand being led by the Holy Spirit (internally) instead of written rules (externally).

I think most people want to do "what's right" but, according to Scripture, they're bound to fail.

 

[Clare73]

Sorry, but Paul disagrees with you... "But now we have been released from the law,

We are released from its condemnation.

Jesus stiil subsumes it in his royal law of Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10.

because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code. Romans 7:6 (and elsewhere). " To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) 1 Corinthians 9:20b

though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) 1 Corinthians 9:21b

]Galatians 5:18 clearly states, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

We are under grace, and have been freed from the law's condemnation and inability to enable us to obey, being under grace which does enable us to obey.

The written code is the curse.

 

[Nathan@work]

Read your Bible! The Jews are still under the law.

Romans 4:16, "For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"

Galatians 3:10, "For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” Present tense!

I do read the Bible.

They choose to be under the law, not because God requires it.

If you or I chose to be under the law it would not mean we are then under the old covenant.

They may believe they are, but it does not mean God recognizes it as such.

 

[pescador]

We are released from its condemnation.

Jesus stiil subsumes it in his royal law of Matthew 22:37-40; Romans 13:8-10.


though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) 1 Corinthians 9:21b
We are under grace, and have been freed from the law's condemnation and inability to enable us to obey, being under grace which does enable us to obey.

Paul wrote, ""But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." End of discussion!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Looks like that's where we see it differently.

I think the ten commandments are fulfilled, along with the rest of the law.

Of course, as Christians are led by the spirit, they will end up doing many of the same things as someone trying to keep the ten commandments.

But it's kind of like if my doctor says to avoid pork. In doing that, I would also be keeping one of the dietary laws.

But I wouldn't think of myself as keeping the dietary law, just following the doctor's instructions.

Are you willing to bet everything on that because when Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law maybe He really meant it?

Not sure why this random verse would be almost at the end of the Bible if we were meant to discard it.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Nathan@work]

@pescador if you read Zechariah 11 he prophesied about the old covenant and the new.