Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[HIM]

And your authority to make this statement is..?

Prove it wrong

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi again,

Lots of great points in your post!

I'll keep this post just about the first one, so we don't get lost.

The ten commandments were given by God, as were all of the commandments given to the Israelites in the wilderness.

The book of Leviticus starts with "YHWH spoke".

Does it start that way or a similar way in the translation that you like?

God's TEN was separated intentionally as it is the God's moral law that can not be broken. I agree, God's Ten and other laws given by God to Moses are still binding are included in the law.

 

[HIM]

The NIV is an excellent transliteration.

Romans 1:5 in the RSV = "through him we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations."

NIV = "Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles."
.

You do know neither one of these translations you shared agree with one another.

 

[Clare73]

The NIV is an excellent transliteration.
Romans 1:5 in the RSV = "through him we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations."
NIV = "Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles."

You do know neither one of these translations you shared agree with one another.

I know you don't agree with yourself regarding the nature of unbelief.

 

[pescador]

Prove it wrong

You make a statement that the NIV is a terrible translation and you want me to prove you wrong? You must back up your statement with some proof, otherwise it's just your (wrong) opinion.

Since it's the best-selling Bible translation you have quite a mountain to climb to try to prove yourself right.

 

[pescador]

God's TEN was separated intentionally as it is the God's moral law that can not be broken. I agree, God's Ten and other laws given by God to Moses are still binding are included in the law.

Okay, but I (and every other Christian) am not under law but under grace.

 

[pescador]

You do know neither one of these translations you shared agree with one another.

They agree in meaning with each other, although the word order is different.

Romans 1:5 in the RSV = "through him we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations."

NIV, 2011, " Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake."

NET 2.1, "Through him we have received grace and our apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name."

From the NET footnotes it seems that this verse is difficult to translate from Koine Greek into modern English.

 

[Leaf473]

God's TEN was separated intentionally as it is the God's moral law that can not be broken. I agree, God's Ten and other laws given by God to Moses are still binding are included in the law.

Glad we agree that there are more than 10 commandments that are called God's commandments.

And I'm assuming you will agree that the ten commandments were delivered by Moses. Moses brought them down from the mountain.

So moving on
"We are told they are forever
Psalms 111: 7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever. That would be the 10, plus all the rest that God gave through Moses.

Do we agree so far?

 

[Leaf473]

I think there is more than one passage in the Bible that talks about God's word standing forever.

So not only are all of those commandments eternal, everything God said is eternal.

 

[pescador]

Glad we agree that there are more than 10 commandments that are called God's commandments.

And I'm assuming you will agree that the ten commandments were delivered by Moses. Moses brought them down from the mountain.

So moving on
"We are told they are forever
Psalms 111: 7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever. That would be the 10, plus all the rest that God gave through Moses.

Do we agree so far?

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever, but they apply only to those who are under the First Covenant. Those of us under the Second Covenant are not under God's law; we're under His grace.

 

[Nathan@work]

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever, but they apply only to those who are under the First Covenant. Those of us under the Second Covenant are not under God's law; we're under His grace.

Well technically the ones that were under the first covenant are not now. But they can for sure be under the new one!

 

[Clare73]

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever, but they apply only to those who are under the First Covenant. Those of us under the Second Covenant are not under God's law; we're under His grace.

No one is under the first (Mosaic) covenant, it is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

You are either under the New Covenant, or no covenant at all,
and are outsiders (Revelation 22:14-15).
.

 

[pescador]

Well technically the ones that were under the first covenant are not now. But they can for sure be under the new one!

I don't understand this. Jews are still under the First Covenant.

 

[Nathan@work]

I don't understand this. Jews are still under the First Covenant.

Not anymore.

The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.

 

[Clare73]

I don't understand this. Jews are still under the First Covenant.

Not according to authoritative NT teaching in Hebrews 8:13.

Where do you find anyone under the Mosaic covenant in NT revelation?

 

[Clare73]

I think there is more than one passage in the Bible that talks about God's word standing forever.

So not only are all of those commandments eternal, everything God said is eternal.

The Mosaic sacrificial and ceremonial commandments (laws) are God's word, and they don't stand forever, God himself has abrogated them.

 

[pescador]

No one is under the first (Mosaic) covenant, it is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

You are either under the New Covenant, or no covenant at all,
and are outsiders (Revelation 22:14-15).
.

Hebrews 8:13, " When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." But it hasn't disappeared yet.

Revelation 22:14-15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!"

Now...

"For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Romans 2:12 => Still in effect <=

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are [present tense] under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God." Romans 3:19

"For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law [present tense], but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16

"But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6 This applies to Christian believers only, not Jews.

"To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law." [present tense] Romans 9:20

"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” [present tense] Galatians 3:10

And there are more. The First Covenant, expressed in "The Law" is still in effect for all who are either a) Jews or b) Gentiles who choose to put themselves under the law.

Read your Bible!

 

[Nathan@work]

Hebrews 8:13, " When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." But it hasn't disappeared yet.

Revelation 22:14-15, "Blessed are those who wash their robes so they can have access to the tree of life and can enter into the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!"

Now...

"For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Romans 2:12 => Still in effect <=

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are [present tense] under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God." Romans 3:19

"For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants—not only to those who are under the law [present tense], but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16

"But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code." Romans 7:6 This applies to Christian believers only, not Jews.

"To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law." [present tense] Romans 9:20

"For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.” [present tense] Galatians 3:10

And there are more. The First Covenant, expressed in "The Law" is still in effect for all who are either a) Jews or b) Gentiles who choose to put themselves under the law.

Read your Bible!

Hebrews is quoting from the book of Jeremiah. That was written before Christ came and established the new covenant.

The first was declared obsolete back then. In other words, of no value. Just because it has not vanished away does not mean it is still active.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, all of God's commandments stand forever, but they apply only to those who are under the First Covenant. Those of us under the Second Covenant are not under God's law; we're under His grace.

I agree, like the scriptures talk about, if you are led by the spirit you are not under the law.

Anticipating an issue here, some may say that under the law means under the curse of the law.

I think the scriptures use under the law to mean obligated to do the things in the law.

 

[Leaf473]

The Mosaic sacrificial and ceremonial commandments (laws) are God's word, and they don't stand forever, God himself has abrogated them.

I like to see it this way, in order to resolve that paradox.

God's words remain forever. What God abrogated or abolished was our obligation to do the things in the law.

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and I believe he did that in some way related to his death, resurrection, and sending of the holy Spirit.