Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay, but I (and every other Christian) am not under law but under grace.

Grace is God’s gift, not a license to sin freely.

 

[Nathan@work]

Are you willing to bet everything on that because when Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law maybe He really meant it?

Not sure why this random verse would be almost at the end of the Bible if we were meant to discard it.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

We who are of the Faith do His commandments.

It does not mean we are under the law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We who are of the Faith do His commandments.

It does not mean we are under the law.

You can have faith and still lie and murder, do you think that is showing God our love and what that verse is saying? If so, you need to read the next verse.

 

[Nathan@work]

You can have faith and still lie and murder, do you think that is showing God our love and what that verse is saying? If so, you need to read the next verse.

Just because a person lies or murders does not mean they are practicing those things.

Sin is sin.

Do you believe you never sin?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Just because a person lies or murders does not mean they are practicing those things.

Sin is sin.

Do you believe you never sin?

We went through this in the other thread, so that is answered.

Sin is sin and while we are saved by grace through our faith, the commandments have not been destroyed says our Savior. Mathew 5:17

 

[Nathan@work]

We went through this in the other thread, so that is answered.

Sin is sin and while we are saved by grace through our faith, the commandments have not been destroyed says our Savior. Mathew 5:17

I don’t think anyone has said they are destroyed?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don’t think anyone has said they are destroyed?

Do you think we are required to obey God’s commandment or not?

 

[Nathan@work]

Do you think we are required to obey God’s commandment or not?

We are.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We are.

Should we write this in our calendars- we agree on something! God bless

 

[Bob S]

Hi again Bob, nice to see you. Some comments below for your consideration.

There is no such thing as a ritual Sabbath except if your referring to the old covenant ceremonial sabbaths in the annual feast days and the sin offerings.

Yes, you have stated that in the past, it certainly doesn't make it true. SDAs among others are so quick to tell us that there were moral laws and ceremonial laws and when I confront you with a ceremonial law you call foul. The Sabbath command was not dealing with morality issues, issues between God and man and man to man. It was dealing the same thing as all the other Sabbaths God gave Israel.

Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-12 is a "memorial" Sabbath and celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth that Jesus says he made for all mankind, and He is the Lord of it and commands us to keep it as a holy day of rest *Exodus 20:8; Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28.

The other Sabbaths are also memorial Sabbaths yet you call them ceremonial and I agree. If He gave it to all mankind He certainly didn't ever tell it to "all" mankind. He made it for all Hebrew man. By the way why do you put "all" before man and "kind" after man? What you do is deceiving.

There was no JEW, no ISRAEL, no sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind Bob

God didn't make the Sabbath for "all" mankind LGW

Sorry Bob, Hebrews 4 is talking about two rest. One is the gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word those in the wilderness did not enter into because of their unbelief and sin *Hebrews 3:12-13; 17-19; Hebrews 4:2. The other is God's rest/My rest/His rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrew 4:1; 3-4; 5; 10 which Hebrews 4 defines as the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 meaning is that Gods rest/His rest/My rest is the "seventh day Sabbath that God rested on in the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and blessed the "seventh day" and made the "seventh day" a holy day of rest for all mankind (Mark 2:27). Only those therefore who receive the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word enter into God's rest (the Sabbath rest). Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Why do you insist after you have been warned there is no verse 9 in any translation I have read that says "keep the Sabbath"? in fact Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Heb 4 couldn't have meant our keeping weekly Sabbath of the Israelite nation because the writer there in chapter 8 is telling us the old covenant which the Sabbath was part of has disappeared.

Not really Bob but let me show you why. Grace is not a license to sin as posted above it is for obedience to the faith and yes the scripture does indeed say that. Here it is again Romans 1:5 {KJV} By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

The following makes sense
"5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake." NIV

Sorry Bob, I think the scriptures disagree with you here.

The NIV makes sense. God's Grace has always been forgiveness, charity, leniency, reprieve, etc. If man had to rise to perfection to become an apostle there wouldn't have been any.

Indeed love is expressed through our Savior. God's law is a representation of God's character of love. This is why Jesus says "On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40.

Why would you limit God's character to the law He gave to Israel? The 10 commandments certainly were not about love.

According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

You mean according to LGW which is not true.

According to the scriptures sin according to John is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and those who practice sin and those who do not is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love we cannot see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7).

Wow! Bravo.

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

And HIS commandments are: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

N

ot really Bob. It is God's Word not mine that says sin is the transgression of God's law in 1 John 3:4 and that through the law we have a knowledge of what sin is in Romans 3:20. Paul makes this very clear that he is talking about the 10 commandments when he applies this to thou shalt not covet in Romans 7:7. James goes on further and states if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 we stand guilty before God of sin. These are all new testament scripture Bob. Jesus says think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19). Those who are called the least in God's Kingdom are the ones that do not make it there. So to try and claim that there is no law now goes against all the scriptures of both the old and new covenants as everyone of God's 10 commandments including God's 4th commandment Sabbath is repeated as a requirement for Christian living to new covenant believes (need more scripture; Here linked and Here linked). As posted earlier God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29 if we are not a part of God's ISRAEL than we have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentile believer are now grafted in with Jewish believers *Romans 11:13-27 and we are all one in Christ *Ephesians 2:11-13; Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:11-13;

First of all we are not grafted into Israel. Nowhere are we told this, we are grafted into Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 was quoted because it is what Paul is quoting from in the old testament scripture where God describes His new covenant in Hebrews 8:10-12. Note very carefully who this new covenant promise is addressed to Bob...

Jeremiah 31:31-34, [31] Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD:[33], But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.[34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, said the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thank you Jesus for including everyone into your glorious new covenant.

Compare this to what Paul is writing in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:1-19. I posted earlier from the new testament scriptures showing that God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. The above is God's new covenant promise of a new heart to love as love is the fulfilling of God's law in all those who have been born again to walk in God's Spirit to love. (see Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 2:3-4). No one has God's holy Spirit dwelling in the heart Bob if they are breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments as Gods' new covenant promise is given that Gods' people can be born again to love and have God's laws written in their heart to love God and their fellow man. As it is written in John:

1 John 5:2-3, [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.[3], For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and again...

1 John 2:3-4 [3], And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4], He that said, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If we are not born again to walk in God's Spirit and given a new heart to love we will not see the kingdom of Heaven *John 3:3-7 because those who are born again do not practice sin *1 John 3:6-9. Sin according to the scriptures is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10.

Agreed James is quoting two of the 10 commandments as examples showing that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. This of course includes God's 4th commandment "seventh day Sabbath" which is one of God's 10 commandments as shown in Exodus 20:8-11.

Thank you John for stating the real truth and able to have it right here so that we do not get persuaded by those who are spreading information that does not live up to the Word.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob S]

Hi Pescador, I have a different take on who is under the old covenant. My take is that no one is under the laws given to Israel at Sinai. To make it simple, the old covenant was made void at Jesus death. At Jesus death He ratified the new covenant with His own blood. He came to save Israel. The old covenant was their death sentence. 2Cor3:6-11. The new covenant is their hope and thank you Jesus it is our hope too.
The World's population are under the new covenant.

 

[Nathan@work]

Should we write this in our calendars- we agree on something! God bless

You know, we have agreed in the past also.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, you have stated that in the past, it certainly doesn't make it true. SDAs among others are so quick to tell us that there were moral laws and ceremonial laws and when I confront you with a ceremonial law you call foul. The Sabbath command was not dealing with morality issues, issues between God and man and man to man. It was dealing the same thing as all the other Sabbaths God gave Israel.

Not really Bob, your micro-quoting me here and the difference between what your claiming here and what has been shared with you are the scriptures that have been shared with you that disagree with your claims here. All of Gods' 10 commandments are moral laws Bob of our duty of love to God of which the Sabbath is a part of and our duty of love to our fellow man (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 see Jesus Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10 and James 2:8-12. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, God's 4th commandment is not a ritual Sabbath in the new covenant. This said the old covenant ceremonial sabbaths in the annual feast days and God's 4th commandment included sin offerings which are today fulfilled in Christ. Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-12 is a "memorial" Sabbath and celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth that Jesus says he made for all mankind, and He is the Lord of it and commands us to keep it as a holy day of rest *Exodus 20:8; Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28. There was no JEW, no ISRAEL, no sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind Bob *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3. There was only mankind in Adam and Eve who were without sin before the fall of mankind into sin on the seventh day of creation. Sorry Bob, Hebrews 4 is talking about two rest. One is the gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word those in the wilderness did not enter into because of their unbelief and sin *Hebrews 3:12-13; 17-19; Hebrews 4:2. The other is God's rest/My rest/His rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrew 4:1; 3-4; 5; 10 which Hebrews 4 defines as the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 meaning is that Gods rest/His rest/My rest is the "seventh day Sabbath that God rested on in the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and blessed the "seventh day" and made the "seventh day" a holy day of rest for all mankind (Mark 2:27). Only those therefore who receive the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word enter into God's rest (the Sabbath rest). Hebrews 4:9 SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

The other Sabbaths are also memorial Sabbaths yet you call them ceremonial and I agree.

Actually no Bob. The other Sabbaths in the Feasts are not connected to a fixed point in time. They serve a different purpose then Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11. Gods' 'seventh day" Sabbath which is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth is fixed to every "seventh day" of the week whereas the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days are lot linked to a fixed day but to the Feast that it is linked to and can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle. There annual ceremonial sabbaths Bob include; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36.

If He gave it to all mankind He certainly didn't ever tell it to "all" mankind. He made it for all Hebrew man.By the way why do you put "all" before man and "kind" after man? What you do is deceivingGod didn't make the Sabbath for "all" mankind LGW

Sorry Bob I respectfully disagree and believe we are best to follow the words of Jesus which disagree with you here. Please let me show why I disagree. According to Jesus in Mark 2:27 Jesus tells us; "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" Jesus does not tell us Bob that he made the Sabbath for the Jew and in fact there were no Jews, no Israel, no Moses and there was not even any sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind only Adam and Eve and Gods' perfect creation. The Greek word used in Mark 2:27 for "man" Bob is ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos | G444) means human beings. So yep God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of creation according to Genesis 2:1-3 where God blessed, set apart the "seventh day" from all the other days of the week and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind in which Jesus is the Lord of this Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and commands His people to remember the seventh day Sabbath *Exodus 20:8 and to keep it as a Holy day of rest as one of God's 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11.

Why do you insist after you have been warned there is no verse 9 in any translation I have read that says "keep the Sabbath"

Sorry Bob I respectfully disagree but let me show why from the scriptures.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

Lamsa Bible
It is therefore the duty of the people of God to keep the Sabbath.

................

Bob for your interest, the Greek word used here for Sabbath is Sabbatismos and means a Sabbath keeping or keeping of the Sabbath or how the Sabbath is kept by resting.

Hebrews 4, verse 9: “So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” or in other translations "There remains therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God". In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

GREEK INTERLINEAR
HEBREWS 4:9 άρα (Then) απολείπεται (there is left) σαββατισμός (a Sabbath rest) τω (to the) λαώ (people) του θεού (of God)

GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, Abbott-Smith - G4520
*† σαββατισμός, - οῦ, ὁ
(< σαββατίζω, to keep the sabbath, Exod 16:30, al.),
a keeping sabbath, a sabbath rest: metaph., as in Mishna (Zorell, s.v.), Heb 4:9.†

LIDDEL/SCOTT/JONES GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON - G4520
σαββατισμός
Σαββᾰτ-ισμός, ὁ, a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Heb 4:9, cf. Plu. 2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley).

STRONGS LEXICON
So ἄρα (ara) Conjunction Strong's Greek 686: Then, therefore, since. Probably from airo; a particle denoting an inference more or less decisive.
there remains ἀπολείπεται (apoleipetai) Verb - Present Indicative Middle or Passive - 3rd Person Singular Strong's Greek 620: From apo and leipo; to leave behind; by implication, to forsake. a Sabbath rest σαββατισμὸς (sabbatismos) Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 4520: A keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest. From a derivative of sabbaton; a 'sabbatism', i.e. the repose of Christianity. for the τῷ (tō) Article - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the. people λαῷ (laō) Noun - Dative Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2992: Apparently a primary word; a people.
of God. Θεοῦ (Theou) Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular Strong's Greek 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

STRONGS CONCORDENCE
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest Definition: a sabbath rest Usage (DOING): a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. THAYER - G4520
G4520 — σαββατισμός
σαββατισμου, ὁ (σαββατίζω to keep the sabbath);

HEBREWS 4:9 [9], SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

As shown above, these are Gods' Words not my words.

in fact Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Heb 4 couldn't have meant our keeping weekly Sabbath of the Israelite nation because the writer there in chapter 8 is telling us the old covenant which the Sabbath was part of has disappeared.

According to the scriptures it "shadow laws" for remission of sins that are fulfilled in Jesus under the New covenant that are now based on better promises that are now obsolete *Hebrews 8:1-6; Hebrews 10:1-19. God's 10 commandments however according to God's Word in the new covenant have the same role that they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. Jesus tells us in his own words; "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19). Those who are called the least in God's Kingdom are the ones that do not make it there. So to try and claim that there is no law now goes against all the scriptures of both the old and new covenants as everyone of God's 10 commandments including God's 4th commandment Sabbath is repeated as a requirement for Christian living to new covenant believes (need more scripture; Here linked and Here linked). As posted earlier God's ISRAEL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29.

The following makes sense"5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake." NIV The NIV makes sense. God's Grace has always been forgiveness, charity, leniency, reprieve, etc. If man had to rise to perfection to become an apostle there wouldn't have been any.

Bob I believe the KJV to be the better translation here Romans 1:5 [5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name [6], Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ.

This is because the gospel commission started with the Jews then when to the gentiles "ALL NATIONS" meaning all people Jews and Gentiles in fact the same Greek Word here ἔθνος (éthnos; G1484) is used in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.

The point here the Greek word used for Apostleship is ἀποστολή (apostolḗ | G651) and means commission. We have all received the great commission is Christ disciples to take the everlasting Gospel to the world.

Romans 1:5 [5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name [6], Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ.

We have received God's grace as sinners and been given the great commission by God *Matthew 28:18-20 to give the gospel to all the world Bob, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH AMONG ALL NATIONS (not the gentiles only but all people)

Why would you limit God's character to the law He gave to Israel? The 10 commandments certainly were not about love.

According to the scriptures, God's love is expressed through our Savior. God's law is a representation of God's character of love. This is why Jesus says "On these two great commandments of love to God and man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40.

According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures sin according to John is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and those who practice sin and those who do not is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love we cannot see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7).

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

You mean according to LGW which is not true.

No Bob, I love Gods' Word (excuse the pun) but I cannot take any credit for them as they are God's Words not my words as shown above and only God's Word is true according to the scriptures and we should believe and follow them (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29).

Wow! Bravo.

Your welcome Bob, but give thanks to God not me as they are Gods' Words not my words.

 

[HIM]

They did a terrible job

And your authority to make this statement is..? It is the most popular translation in the world. The NIV translation committee did a miraculous job of bringing the Bible in all its glory into comprehensible English.

Prove it wrong

You make a statement that the NIV is a terrible translation and you want me to prove you wrong? You must back up your statement with some proof, otherwise it's just your (wrong) opinion.

Since it's the best-selling Bible translation you have quite a mountain to climb to try to prove yourself right.

It was never said that they were a terrible translation. It was stated they did a terrible job in relation to translating Rom 1:5.
Bob S posted the following....

God's grace is so we can be obedient? Rom 1:5 does not say that at all. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. The verse is about calling the Gentiles to obedience. I can only believe you write those verses in order to impress us to think you really have studied all of them and that they confirm your thoughts. I have called you out on your misuse of them many times, yet you continue.

To which was asked, "Where is that paraphrase of Rom1:5 from?
Call is not in the Greek, nor is it implied.

KJV Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

LSV
Rom 1:5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, for obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of His Name;"

And then he answered the NIV

The NIV

Like was already said the word call or "to call" is not in the Greek nor is it implied.

To be completely transparent the KJV and LSV trailed off a bit themselves.

The ABP is rather appealing but they miss the boat a bit also.

Rom 1:5 through whom we received favor and a commission, for obedience of belief among all the nations, for his name,

The word "for" above emphasized in bold is εἰς in the Greek. It basically means into.

So with that in mind, the verse should be translated, "Through whom WE received grace and commission into obedience of the faith among all nations for His name."

 

[HIM]

[NB: There is an issue of not holding firmly, of falling way (rebellion, apostasy) by the NT Hebrews that the writer is addressing.They were considering a return to their OT religion, perhaps because of persecution by their fellow Hebrews, or threats of their families to disinherit them, or both.

Back to the point being made in the beginning. Their falling way, their rebellion, their unbelief. Was their lack of commitment, trusting God and in all things and forsaking sin; not them wanting to turn back to their OT religion. What you you are asserting is an assumption that can not be proven in Hebrews. So why go there?

 

[Bob S]

Not really Bob, your micro-quoting me here and the difference between what your claiming here and what has been shared with you are the scriptures that have been shared with you that disagree with your claims here. All of Gods' 10 commandments are moral laws Bob of our duty of love to God of which the Sabbath is a part of and our duty of love to our fellow man (Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 see Jesus Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10 and James 2:8-12.

Not at all LGW, Sure, all of God's laws are moral, moral vs immoral. You even stated that the laws concerning special days found in the book of the law were ceremonial. Why is it you deny that the weekly Sabbath is not? Sabbath was a ceremonial law plastered between nine laws dealing with morality If you cannot see that you really do need help.

"Duty of love"? Love does not come from duty. True love comes from a born-again heart that has the Holy Spirit dwelling in it. There is not one word in the ten commandments about love. When I read the ten and all the thou shalt nots, I see duty and fear. It was God telling the Israelites they must treat God and their fellow man as they would want to be treated. Then in the book of the law they found the laws dealing with those that didn't obey the ten. That system didn't work LGW. Man failed miserably, BUT God had another plan for Israel. God became man and actually dwelt among all mankind. New laws were given to man All of His laws to man deals around love. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit it becomes our pleasure to love and not our duty. Fear no longer is our motivator. What we do is not in the equation to eternal life. What we do is the result of our love to God and our fellow man. We rest in Jesus because we believe He has paid the price for our failures. The Israelites never found that rest, BUT it is still there for all to take. I am sorry the SDA church does not teach the beautiful gospel of redemption. It teaches we must keep a ritual day or loose eternal life. Everything revolves around proper observance of a ritual day Paul wrote was done away. 2Cor3:6-11 KJV

As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, God's 4th commandment is not a ritual Sabbath in the new covenant.

Wrong, wrong, The fourth commandment isn't even in the new covenant and I don't care how many times you posted your false theory in the past.

This said the old covenant ceremonial sabbaths in the annual feast days and God's 4th commandment included sin offerings which are today fulfilled in Christ.

All of the laws of the Sinai covenant were fulfilled in Christ. The laws dealing with morality are part of Jesus new covenant.

Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-12 is a "memorial" Sabbath and celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth that Jesus says he made for all mankind, and He is the Lord of it and commands us to keep it as a holy day of rest *Exodus 20:8; Genesis 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28.

Why do you leave out the fact that the Sabbath was also for the remembrance of the escape from bondage is Egypt? We have Jesus the Creator and redeemer to remember and since most Christians are Gentile we have no reason to Celebrate the exodus. You are wrong again, God does not command US to keep a day of rest. He commanded Israel to keep a day of rest.

There was no JEW, no ISRAEL, no sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind Bob *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3.

Where in scripture does it tell us in Gen 2 that God made the Sabbath for all mankind? Mark 2 said He made it for man not ALL manKIND.

There was only mankind in Adam and Eve who were without sin before the fall of mankind into sin on the seventh day of creation. Sorry Bob, Hebrews 4 is talking about two rest. One is the gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word those in the wilderness did not enter into because of their unbelief and sin *Hebrews 3:12-13; 17-19; Hebrews 4:2. The other is God's rest/My rest/His rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrew 4:1; 3-4; 5; 10 which Hebrews 4 defines as the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world in Hebrews 4:3-5 meaning is that Gods rest/His rest/My rest is the "seventh day Sabbath that God rested on in the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and blessed the "seventh day" and made the "seventh day" a holy day of rest for all mankind (Mark 2:27). Only those therefore who receive the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word enter into God's rest (the Sabbath rest). Hebrews 4:9 SO THEN IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

Broken record with the same false paraphrases. Correcting your false paraphrases has become a burden and if you continue I will just tell you "not true LGW".

Actually no Bob. The other Sabbaths in the Feasts are not connected to a fixed point in time. They serve a different purpose then Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11. Gods' 'seventh day" Sabbath which is a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth is fixed to every "seventh day" of the week whereas the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days are lot linked to a fixed day but to the Feast that it is linked to and can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle. There annual ceremonial sabbaths Bob include; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36.

Sorry Bob I respectfully disagree and believe we are best to follow the words of Jesus which disagree with you here. Please let me show why I disagree. According to Jesus in Mark 2:27 Jesus tells us; "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" Jesus does not tell us Bob that he made the Sabbath for the Jew and in fact there were no Jews, no Israel, no Moses and there was not even any sin when God made the Sabbath for all mankind only Adam and Eve and Gods' perfect creation. The Greek word used in Mark 2:27 for "man" Bob is ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos | G444) means human beings. So yep God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of creation according to Genesis 2:1-3 where God blessed, set apart the "seventh day" from all the other days of the week and made it a holy day of rest for all mankind in which Jesus is the Lord of this Sabbath (Mark 2:28) and commands His people to remember the seventh day Sabbath *Exodus 20:8 and to keep it as a Holy day of rest as one of God's 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11.

Okay, the fact is you insert an "ALL" into the equation plus you add "kind" to man. If the correct word for man actually means "human beings" that even lessens your theory that it was made for all mankind. The human beings God made the Sabbath for were the Israelites who are the Jews of today. The fact that God has never asked any other nation to observe a day plus the fact that in all of the New Testament keeping Sabbath is not a requirement your use of "all" is completely false LGW.

Sorry Bob I respectfully disagree but let me show why from the scriptures.

Your disagreements have been proven not to hold water.
The Jews were already keeping Sabbath, so once again all your theories have been prove false and repeating them does not do anything to make them any less false. Need we go on?

 

[pescador]

Well technically the ones that were under the first covenant are not now. But they can for sure be under the new one!

Those who live by God's OT law are still under the First Covenant.

 

[pescador]

Hebrews is quoting from the book of Jeremiah. That was written before Christ came and established the new covenant.

The first was declared obsolete back then. In other words, of no value. Just because it has not vanished away does not mean it is still active.

It is still active. Why not ask a Jew if the Old Covenant by which s/he lives is obsolete? The Old Covenant is still the rule for all but Christians, who live under the New Covenant.

Only Christians live according to the Holy Spirit. All but unbelievers are under one of the two covenants.

 

[Nathan@work]

Those who live by God's OT law are still under the First Covenant.

Yes, according to themselves.

Not according to God though. He does not recognize that Covenant with them anymore.

 

[Nathan@work]

It is still active. Why not ask a Jew if the Old Covenant by which s/he lives is obsolete? The Old Covenant is still the rule for all but Christians, who live under the New Covenant.

Only Christians live according to the Holy Spirit. All but unbelievers are under one of the two covenants.

If I asked a Jew I am sure they would say they live under the Old Covenant. That does not make it still enacted.

I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone, other than the Children of Israel, was under the Old Covenant?