Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Clare73]

Actually no. I posted an exegetical scripture review in response to your post 715 which has been provided in post # 1161 and post # 1006 showing the claims you were making earlier in your post was eisegesis (reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach). If you disagree your welcome to show why by responding to the linked posts above and the scripture contexts and chapter definitions that disagree with your post. At the moment your disagreeing without showing why and your refusal to respond to the linked posts that disagree with your claims only proves my point. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and we will agree to disagree.

Exegesis looks like post#1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Exegesis looks like post#1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Nonsense post # 1161 and post # 1006 was addressing your claims from what you posted in post # 715.

Let's do a recap and talk detail...

Exegesis is when we let the scripture say what the scriptures mean instead of reading into the scriptures what the scriptures have never said. While the opposite of exegesis is eisegesis which is trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures have never said. Post # 1006 linked proves from the scriptures alone that many of your claims from the scriptures you posted in post 715 was eisegesis (reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

For example...

1. You claim from "Clare73 said: ↑ Christ did not give us the Sabbath commandment, but Christ fulfills the full-time (Hebrews 4:3-4) Sabbath-rest of God to NT believers in his full-time salvation rest from our work to save, and rest in Jesus' finished work which has saved. (Heb 4:8-11)."

This is eisegesis! Where does it say in Hebrews 4:3-4 that Christ fulfills the full-time Sabbath-rest of God to NT believers in his full-time salvation rest from our work to save, and rest in Jesus' finished work which has saved? - Nowhere! As shown in post # 1006 linked

Exegesis is reading from scripture what the scriptures say. This is what the scriptures say..

WHAT IS HIS REST (God's) IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5.

Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

You on the other hand try and define Gods rest (the seventh day Sabbath) as something the scriptures are not talking about. Your providing scripture and reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach anywhere (eisegesis).

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9 (exegesis)

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

...............

2. Your premise in eisegesis of Hebrews 4:1-13 is that Jesus is the Sabbath

Yet the scriptures state nowhere that Jesus is the Sabbath (eisegesis). Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:13 shows that God's Rest/His Rest/My Rest is the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (exegesis) in Hebrews 4:3-5 and the warning given to God's people in Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-13 is that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin which is defined in the scriptures as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) we will not enter into His REST the seventh day Sabbath rest *Hebrews 4:2-5. There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and the other is God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14. Your explanation of Hebrews 4 must be in light of all the scriptures provided in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 which you have not done.

.................

3. You go on to say from Hebrews 4 "Clare73 said: ↑ He is more than just example, he is the NT fulfillment of God's full-time Sabbath rest from his works, in Jesus' full-time salvation rest from our own works to save."

Here you try and claim that Jesus is a sabbath yet where in Hebrews or anywhere in the whole bible does it define Jesus as a sabbath? This is another example of eisegesis. Your trying to read into the scriptures what they do not say and do not teach. There is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath. Jesus is the creator of the Sabbath (Lord) that he made as a Holy day of rest according to Mark 2:27-28 for all mankind. The only definition of what the Sabbath is in scripture is this one.

Exodus 20:10 But the "seventh day is the sabbath" of the LORD your God.

Your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. Jesus kept the Sabbath and taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12 where he also taught us that the Sabbath was made for mankind at creation *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 and that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath day (the Lord's day) *Matthew 12:8. Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 are warnings to God's people to believe and follow Gods' Word and that the gospel is the Word of God we are to believe and follow and those who do not believe and follow God's Word do not enter into Gods' rest which is defined in Hebrews 4:1-5 as the seventh day Sabbath. "Therefore" we are told it remains for the people of God (those who have entered into God's rest by believing Gods' Word the gospel) to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9. Jesus is God and Lord of the Sabbath that he created for all mankind *Mark 2:27-28 and the Sabbath is defined in the scriptures (exegesis) as the "seventh day" of creation in Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:3-4. Therefore we should believe what the scriptures tell us (exegesis) that it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath *Hebrews 4:9.

...............

What you have provided in your current link is the same as what you were trying to claim earlier. You need to consider all the scriptures within the chapter contexts which you have not done and have needed to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach as demonstrated above. You have ignored what the scriptures define as God's rest/My rest/His rest as the Sabbath made in Genesis 2:1-3 *Hebrews 4:1-5 and that there are two rests here. The gospel rest of believing and following Gods' Word and the Sabbath rest of God's seventh day that all who believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel) enter into.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Clare73]

Nonsense


post # 1161 and post # 1006 was addressing your claims from what you posted in post # 715.

Let's do a recap and talk detail...

Exegesis is when we let the scripture say what the scriptures mean instead of reading into the scriptures what the scriptures have never said. While the opposite of exegesis is eisegesis which is trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures have never said. Post # 1006 linked proves from the scriptures alone that many of your claims from the scriptures you posted in post 715 was eisegesis (reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

For example...

1. You claim from "Clare73 said: ↑ Christ did not give us the Sabbath commandment, but Christ fulfills the full-time (Hebrews 4:3-4) Sabbath-rest of God to NT believers in his full-time salvation rest from our work to save, and rest in Jesus' finished work which has saved. (Heb 4:8-11)."

This is eisegesis! Where does it say in Hebrews 4:3-4 that Christ fulfills the full-time Sabbath-rest of God to NT believers in his full-time salvation rest from our work to save, and rest in Jesus' finished work which has saved? - Nowhere! As shown in post # 1006 linked

Exegesis is reading from scripture what the scriptures say. This is what the scriptures say..

WHAT IS HIS REST (God's) IN HEBREWS 3 and HEBREWS 4?

HEBREWS 4
[1], Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
[2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4], For he spoke in a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And God did rest the SEVENTH DAY from all his works.
5, And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

KEY POINTS FROM THE SCRIPTURES OF HEBREWS 4:1-5 (exegesis)

NOTE: CONTEXT is God's REST from the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST OF CREATION (v4-5) and those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW GOD's WORD [the GOSPEL] enter into God's SABBATH REST as GOD did on the SEVENTH DAY of the week. CONTEXT is GOD's SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REST and those who believe or do not believe God's WORD do not enter into that rest. The new testament writer of Hebrews is warning us that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and we continue in sin and unbelief (Hebrews 3:10-13; 18-19) we will never enter into God's rest (His Rest/My Rest) which is defined as the "seventh day" Sabbath rest in Hebrews 4:1-5.

Hebrews 4:3-5 defines God's rest by saying [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest (our rest from or the gospel rest of believing and following God's Word), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest (God's rest): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the "seventh day" on this wise, And God did rest the "seventh day" from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest ("seventh day").

You on the other hand try and define Gods rest (the seventh day Sabbath) as something the scriptures are not talking about. Your providing scripture and reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach anywhere (eisegesis).

[6], Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
[7], Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
[8], For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
[9] SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

[10], For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his. [11], Let us labor therefore to enter that rest, [God’s REST the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH] lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief [rejecting God’s WORD and sin; Hebrews 3].

KEY POINTS OF HEBREWS 4:9 (exegesis)

Now notice Hebrews 4, verse 9: “SO THEN, IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.” In verses 1, 3, 4 and 8, the Greek word for “rest” is katapausin. It means “rest.” But in verse 9, the Greek word for “rest” is sabbatismos, which is a Hebrew word—Sabbat, which means “the Sabbath”—combined with a Greek suffix—ismos, which means “a keeping of” or “a doing of.” Put together, sabbatismo means “a keeping of the Sabbath.” When correctly translated, Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God.”

...............

2. Your premise in eisegesis of Hebrews 4:1-13 is that Jesus is the Sabbath

Yet the scriptures state nowhere that Jesus is the Sabbath (eisegesis). Hebrews 3:7-19 to Hebrews 4:13 shows that God's Rest/His Rest/My Rest is the seventh day Sabbath from the foundation of the world (exegesis) in Hebrews 4:3-5 and the warning given to God's people in Hebrews 3:7-19 and Hebrews 4:1-13 is that if we do not believe and follow God's Word (the gospel) and continue in sin which is defined in the scriptures as the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4) we will not enter into His REST the seventh day Sabbath rest *Hebrews 4:2-5. There are two rests being described. One is our rest we receive through believing and following God's Word (the gospel) *Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:2-3 and the other is God's rest *Hebrews 3:11; 18; Hebrews 4:1; 3; 5-6; 8-9; 10-11. Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH. Why? Because the true seventh day Sabbath rest is a sign of God's true people who God sanctifies to keep all the commandments of God through faith in God's Word *Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:20; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 22:14. Your explanation of Hebrews 4 must be in light of all the scriptures provided in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 which you have not done.

.................

3. You go on to say from Hebrews 4 "Clare73 said: ↑ He is more than just example, he is the NT fulfillment of God's full-time Sabbath rest from his works, in Jesus' full-time salvation rest from our own works to save."

Here you try and claim that Jesus is a sabbath yet where in Hebrews or anywhere in the whole bible does it define Jesus as a sabbath? This is another example of eisegesis. Your trying to read into the scriptures what they do not say and do not teach. There is no scripture that says Jesus is a Sabbath. Jesus is the creator of the Sabbath (Lord) that he made as a Holy day of rest according to Mark 2:27-28 for all mankind. The only definition of what the Sabbath is in scripture is this one.

Exodus 20:10 But the "seventh day is the sabbath" of the LORD your God.

Your reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. Jesus kept the Sabbath and taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath *Matthew 12:1-12 where he also taught us that the Sabbath was made for mankind at creation *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 and that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath day (the Lord's day) *Matthew 12:8. Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 are warnings to God's people to believe and follow Gods' Word and that the gospel is the Word of God we are to believe and follow and those who do not believe and follow God's Word do not enter into Gods' rest which is defined in Hebrews 4:1-5 as the seventh day Sabbath. "Therefore" we are told it remains for the people of God (those who have entered into God's rest by believing Gods' Word the gospel) to keep the Sabbath in Hebrews 4:9. Jesus is God and Lord of the Sabbath that he created for all mankind *Mark 2:27-28 and the Sabbath is defined in the scriptures (exegesis) as the "seventh day" of creation in Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Hebrews 4:3-4. Therefore we should believe what the scriptures tell us (exegesis) that it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath *Hebrews 4:9.

...............

So, please do not tell me that your post # 715 has not been addressed by exegesis when it clearly has in post # 1006 linked demonstrating what you were trying to present in the scriptures was eisegesis and not exegesis. This post was only sent in love as a help to the discussion. You are of course free to believe as you wish.

What you have provided in your current link is the same as what you were trying to claim earlier. You need to consider all the scriptures within the chapter contexts which you have not done and have needed to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or teach as demonstrated above.

Hope this is helpful.

Flagging alleged "eisegesis" is not exegesis.

I have presented a complete exegesis of Heb 3:7-4:13 in
post #1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Now you do the same, taking into account all the issues presented, and show the above is incorrect.

Your failure to perform will conclude the matter.
.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Complete exegesis of Heb 3:7-4:13 in
post #1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

Clare, the post above yours here demonstrates through the scriptures that the linked post you provided was not exegesis but was eisegesis (reading into the scriptures you posted what the scriptures did not say or teach). The post shared with you as a help, show the scripture contexts and chapter definitions you have left out of your interpretations showing by examples of what you have written in your own words that your reading into the scriptures what they do not say or teach (this is not exegesis but eisegesis). This demonstrates of course that you did not provide exegesis but are providing eisegesis. If you disagree with the scriptures I have posted, that demonstrates with examples how you used eisegesis and not exegesis, please show why you disagree from the scriptures so we can continue our discussion. This reply is only sent as a help to the discussion.

 

[Leaf473]

Well, that was short and sweet.

To understand God's meaning of text, I don't approach it subjectively, if that's what you mean.

I take it at the meaning of its words in the language, in light of the whole counsel of God.

I agree. Though, I do think there is some amount of subjectivity in all reading.

Peace be with you!

 

[Leaf473]

The question was answered several times, I'm not sure how re-answering it would change anything. There was no dodge, but if you look back I have been answering all the questions but as soon as I start asking questions which has been very few, I don't receive answers. It just doesn't seem like a genuine exchange anymore. I am sorry if you think it was otherwise.

Hi imge,

I just wanted to be sure you saw the post below, so you would know that I was apologizing for not seeing your answer.

And if you would be willing to help me out, was your answer 10, or some number other than 10?

But if you don't want to answer, that's fine, too.

Peace be with you!

Well I'm glad you answered it, my apologies that I missed it.

So just if you could help me out then, what was your answer to the question of how many commandments are being referred to in that passage from Revelation?

I don't think your answer needs to be long, it's really just a number, as I understand the question.

Is it ten commandments or some other number of commandments?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi imge,

I just wanted to be sure you saw the post below, so you would know that I was apologizing for not seeing your answer.

And if you would be willing to help me out, was your answer 10, or some number other than 10?

But if you don't want to answer, that's fine, too.

Peace be with you!

Yes, I’ll be back soon when I have some uninterrupted time to respond. God bless.

 

[HIM]

Heb 3:7-4:13. . .not sure what that would look like.

It would look like two people with differing views working through the Bible, studying it to gain understanding together.

 

[HIM]

Heb 3:7-4:13. . .not sure what that would look like.

So I'll just present my explanation, beginning with the particular issues presented in the text:
One of the issues of the NT Hebrew Christians is unbelief. . .how can that be?
.

Big word there unbelief.
How is it they were in unbelief?
A evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Sticking with the context of the passages unbelief in this instance is talking about the deceitfulness of sin. This is furthered emphasized in the next few verses.

We are warned not to harden our hearts as in the provocation, the grieving of God for forty years. With whom was he grieved forty years? How did they provoke? Was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? So take heed and exhort one another daily lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. Confidence, living a life trusting him and His ways. Unhardened through the deceitfulness of Sin, departing from the living God.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Unbelief from the Greek word ἀπιστία. Here is BDAG citation.

ἀπιστία, ας, ἡ (s. ἀπιστέω; Hes., Hdt. et al.; LXX, Philo, Joseph.; Just.; Tat. 32, 2; Ath. R. 60, 15 al.; s. Mayser 11f, 130)
unwillingness to commit oneself to another or respond positively to the other’s words or actions, lack of belief, unbelief (Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 155, 11; Jos., Ant. 2, 327; 19, 127) in our lit. always with God or divine action as referent (cp. Cercidas Iamb. [III B.C.], fgm. 18 II, 8 Coll. Alex. p. 217 [=Anon. in turpilucrum 74: AnthLG, Diehl3 fasc.3=Knox 1929 p. 234]; Plut., Coriol. 232 [38, 4], Alex. 706 [75, 2] ἀ. πρὸς τὰ θεῖα καὶ καταφρόνησις αὐτῶν, De Superstit. 2 p. 165b; Ael. Aristid. 47, 66 K.=23 p. 462 D.; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 118 ἀ. πρὸς τὸν τοῦ κόσμου παντὸς εὐεργέτην [w. ἀχαριστία], Mut. Nom. 201 al.; Jos., Ant. 10, 142). As response to Jesus by inhabitants of Nazareth Mt 13:58; Mk 6:6; a parent of a possessed pers. 9:24; disciples Mt 17:20 v.l. (for ὀλιγοπιστίαν); of some Judeans [ἀ]π̣ιστεί̣[α] PEg2 19; of Israelites toward God Ro 11:20 (τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ=because of their unbelief; ACharue, L’Incrédulité des Juifs dans le NT 1929; on the dat. of cause Schmid III 57; IV 59; M. Ant. 3, 1; ins in ENachmanson, Eranos 11, 1911, 220–25), 23; Hb 3:19. διακρίνεσθαι τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ waver in disbelief Ro 4:20. ἐποίησα ἐν ἀ. while I was still an unbeliever 1 Ti 1:13. καρδία πονηρὰ ἀπιστίας an evil, unbelieving heart Hb 3:12 (on the gen. s. Mlt. 74).—Among Christians w. διψυχία 2 Cl 19:2; w. ἀνομία GJs 20:1 (not pap). Personif. as one of the chief sins Hs 9, 15, 3. (Opp. πίστις) IEph 8:2.—As a characteristic of this age (w. ἀνομία) ending of Mark (16:14) in the Freer Ms. ln. 2.
lack of commitment to a relationship or pledge, unfaithfulness (X., An. 3, 2, 4 et al.; UPZ 18, 5 [163 B.C.]; Wsd 14:25; Philo, Spec. Leg. 2, 8, Decal. 172; Jos., Ant. 14, 349) Ro 3:3 (JGriffiths, ET 53, ’41, 118).—M-M. TW.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi imge,

I just wanted to be sure you saw the post below, so you would know that I was apologizing for not seeing your answer.

And if you would be willing to help me out, was your answer 10, or some number other than 10?

But if you don't want to answer, that's fine, too.

Peace be with you!

Hi Leaf,

Thanks for the question and here is the verse again so we all our on the same page:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Personally. I think this verse refers back to God's Ten that He wrote and spoke. BUT (which I will get to in this post).

Here is why:

In God's commandments before He gave other commandments to Moses we find this verse:

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God refers to His commandments as My, so throughout the Bible when we see My, His or God's commandments it leads us back to the Ten, that God spoke with His own voice, wrote with His own finger and kept in the most holy of holy in the Temple. God also tells us (this is before other laws given to Moses) He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments. So without any other laws given, just the Ten He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His laws (Ten).

Why are God's commandments so important? The first tablet (and as someone else pointed out everything God does has a reason). The first tablet contains commandments 1-4 and is how we show love to God and worship Him. We show Him love when we only worship Him and not other gods (this includes money, other people or anything else we place above Him) not bow down or worship idols (we see this now in some churches even) we should not take the Lords name in vain- I stopped watching almost all secular TV because of this even PG. God's name should be held sacred and not use His name for any other reason except respect and worship. And the 4th commandment that so many people want to forget is to Remember His Sabbath and keep it holy. This is God's day, the true Lords day, the one He defined from creation Genesis 2:3. When we worship Him on His holy Sabbath we are showing God we respect Him, we love Him, we are allowing God to be God. God said keeping His Sabbath is a sign we are His people and how we are sanctified. Ezekiel 20:12, 20:20

The second tablet 1-6 is how we are to love and treat each other. Not to lie to each other, steal from each other, show respect to your parents, not murder, covet, no cheating etc. Most sin falls under one of the Ten umbrella. It's God's perfect law made out of love. The devil has done an excellent job of eroding God's commandments. I would say the majority don't know what the Ten are. Most churches don't teach from the Ten commandments anymore because they want to avoid commandment #4. As a nation we have polluted God's laws and His Sabbath. We are warned of this behavior 2 Timothy 3. Isaiah 56:1-7

The verse in Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, tells us God does have a people. His people keep all of God commandments (the Ten) and here is my BUT: If you are keeping God's commandments (His Ten) each and every one of them, you are more than likely also keeping the other commandments given to Moses that did not end at the cross and that are still applicable today.

God's commandment has never gone away. They are written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. What does that mean- heart and mind? When you do something with all our heart and mind it means your all. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

God's laws are both literal and spiritual. They are meant to be a blessing. The devil is the one trying to deceive us into believing all the augments you hear about this or that why we don't need to obey.

Mark tells us and this is one of the very last verses in the Bible:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God commandments are important because both God and Jesus told us so. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. It's not how we are saved, that is God's grace, His gift through our faith, but obeying is one of the FRUITS we have because we are saved.

 

[Clare73]

Big word there unbelief.
How is it they were in unbelief?

"Hath God said?" (Ge 3:1)

I won't be equivocating with you on the meaning of "unbelief."

Heb 3:12 - sinful, unbelieving heart
Heb 3:13 - sin's deceitfulness
Heb 3:19 - they were not able to enter because of their unbelief

Unbelief is sin. Unbelief is deception.

A evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:12 -
Sticking with the context of the passages unbelief in this instance is talking about the deceitfulness of sin. This is furthered emphasized in the next few verses.

We are warned not to harden our hearts as in the provocation, the grieving of God for forty years. With whom was he grieved forty years? How did they provoke? Was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? So take heed and exhort one another daily lest any of us be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. Confidence, living a life trusting him and His ways. Unhardened through the deceitfulness of Sin, departing from the living God.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

Unbelief from the Greek word ἀπιστία. Here is BDAG citation.

ἀπιστία, ας, ἡ (s. ἀπιστέω; Hes., Hdt. et al.; LXX, Philo, Joseph.; Just.; Tat. 32, 2; Ath. R. 60, 15 al.; s. Mayser 11f, 130)
unwillingness to commit oneself to another or respond positively to the other’s words or actions, lack of belief, unbelief (Mitt-Wilck. I/2, 155, 11; Jos., Ant. 2, 327; 19, 127) in our lit. always with God or divine action as referent (cp. Cercidas Iamb. [III B.C.], fgm. 18 II, 8 Coll. Alex. p. 217 [=Anon. in turpilucrum 74: AnthLG, Diehl3 fasc.3=Knox 1929 p. 234]; Plut., Coriol. 232 [38, 4], Alex. 706 [75, 2] ἀ. πρὸς τὰ θεῖα καὶ καταφρόνησις αὐτῶν, De Superstit. 2 p. 165b; Ael. Aristid. 47, 66 K.=23 p. 462 D.; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 118 ἀ. πρὸς τὸν τοῦ κόσμου παντὸς εὐεργέτην [w. ἀχαριστία], Mut. Nom. 201 al.; Jos., Ant. 10, 142). As response to Jesus by inhabitants of Nazareth Mt 13:58; Mk 6:6; a parent of a possessed pers. 9:24; disciples Mt 17:20 v.l. (for ὀλιγοπιστίαν); of some Judeans [ἀ]π̣ιστεί̣[α] PEg2 19; of Israelites toward God Ro 11:20 (τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ=because of their unbelief; ACharue, L’Incrédulité des Juifs dans le NT 1929; on the dat. of cause Schmid III 57; IV 59; M. Ant. 3, 1; ins in ENachmanson, Eranos 11, 1911, 220–25), 23; Hb 3:19. διακρίνεσθαι τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ waver in disbelief Ro 4:20. ἐποίησα ἐν ἀ. while I was still an unbeliever 1 Ti 1:13. καρδία πονηρὰ ἀπιστίας an evil, unbelieving heart Hb 3:12 (on the gen. s. Mlt. 74).—Among Christians w. διψυχία 2 Cl 19:2; w. ἀνομία GJs 20:1 (not pap). Personif. as one of the chief sins Hs 9, 15, 3. (Opp. πίστις) IEph 8:2.—As a characteristic of this age (w. ἀνομία) ending of Mark (16:14) in the Freer Ms. ln. 2.
lack of commitment to a relationship or pledge, unfaithfulness (X., An. 3, 2, 4 et al.; UPZ 18, 5 [163 B.C.]; Wsd 14:25; Philo, Spec. Leg. 2, 8, Decal. 172; Jos., Ant. 14, 349) Ro 3:3 (JGriffiths, ET 53, ’41, 118).—M-M. TW.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf,

Thanks for the question and here is the verse again so we all our on the same page:

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Personally. I think this verse refers back to God's Ten that He wrote and spoke. BUT (which I will get to in this post).

Here is why:

In God's commandments before He gave other commandments to Moses we find this verse:

Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God refers to His commandments as My, so throughout the Bible when we see My, His or God's commandments it leads us back to the Ten, that God spoke with His own voice, wrote with His own finger and kept in the most holy of holy in the Temple. God also tells us (this is before other laws given to Moses) He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments. So without any other laws given, just the Ten He shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His laws (Ten).

Why are God's commandments so important? The first tablet (and as someone else pointed out everything God does has a reason). The first tablet contains commandments 1-4 and is how we show love to God and worship Him. We show Him love when we only worship Him and not other gods (this includes money, other people or anything else we place above Him) not bow down or worship idols (we see this now in some churches even) we should not take the Lords name in vain- I stopped watching almost all secular TV because of this even PG. God's name should be held sacred and not use His name for any other reason except respect and worship. And the 4th commandment that so many people want to forget is to Remember His Sabbath and keep it holy. This is God's day, the true Lords day, the one He defined from creation Genesis 2:3. When we worship Him on His holy Sabbath we are showing God we respect Him, we love Him, we are allowing God to be God. God said keeping His Sabbath is a sign we are His people and how we are sanctified. Ezekiel 20:12, 20:20

The second tablet 1-6 is how we are to love and treat each other. Not to lie to each other, steal from each other, show respect to your parents, not murder, covet, no cheating etc. Most sin falls under one of the Ten umbrella. It's God's perfect law made out of love. The devil has done an excellent job of eroding God's commandments. I would say the majority don't know what the Ten are. Most churches don't teach from the Ten commandments anymore because they want to avoid commandment #4. As a nation we have polluted God's laws and His Sabbath. We are warned of this behavior 2 Timothy 3. Isaiah 56:1-7

The verse in Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, tells us God does have a people. His people keep all of God commandments (the Ten) and here is my BUT: If you are keeping God's commandments (His Ten) each and every one of them, you are more than likely also keeping the other commandments given to Moses that did not end at the cross and that are still applicable today.

God's commandment has never gone away. They are written in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. What does that mean- heart and mind? When you do something with all our heart and mind it means your all. Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.

God's laws are both literal and spiritual. They are meant to be a blessing. The devil is the one trying to deceive us into believing all the augments you hear about this or that why we don't need to obey.

Mark tells us and this is one of the very last verses in the Bible:

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God commandments are important because both God and Jesus told us so. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. It's not how we are saved, that is God's grace, His gift through our faith, but obeying is one of the FRUITS we have because we are saved.

Thank you for the nice response!

But I'm confused as to what your answer is, and maybe this is why I thought you hadn't answered.

The commandments being referred to in that passage, is it just the 10 or is it the 10 plus "the other commandments given to Moses that did not end at the cross and that are still applicable today"?

To make it really simple, so I can understand what you're saying,

Is it
Ten
or
some number other than Ten?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thank you for the nice response!

But I'm confused as to what your answer is, and maybe this is why I thought you hadn't answered.

The commandments being referred to in that passage, is it just the 10 or is it the 10 plus "the other commandments given to Moses that did not end at the cross and that are still applicable today"?

To make it really simple, so I can understand what you're saying,

Is it
Ten
or
some number other than Ten?

I thought I answered it pretty clearly.

"Personally. I think this verse refers back to God's Ten that He wrote and spoke."

I then went to explain why.

Does this answer your question?

 

[Nathan@work]

I thought I answered it pretty clearly.

"Personally. I think this verse refers back to God's Ten that He wrote and spoke."

I then went to explain why.

Does this answer your question?

Why do you limit it to just the 10?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why do you limit it to just the 10?

I thought I explained in detail on post #1270. Did you read it?

 

[Nathan@work]

I thought I explained in detail on post #1270. Did you read it?

I did. It does not explain why you discount the rest of His commandments.

Do you believe God only gave 10 commandments?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I did. It does not explain why you discount the rest of His commandments.

Do you believe God only gave 10 commandments?

I’m not discounting the rest of His commandment, but that verse says God’s commandments which are the Ten, which is explained in 1270. I keep more than the Ten and they are important and if you want to include the Ten and other commandments that still apply I think thats a really good idea.

 

[Nathan@work]

I’m not discounting the rest of His commandment, but that verse says God’s commandments which are the Ten, which is explained in 1270. I keep more than the Ten and they are important and if you want to include the Ten and other commandments that still apply I think thats a really good idea.

If the verse says “commandments” then how do you decide which ones are included and which ones are not?

It does not list a number.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If the verse says “commandments” then how do you decide which ones are included and which ones are not?

It does not list a number.

It says “commandments of God” those are found in Exodus 20. Are you concerned I’m not keeping enough of the laws. Which commandments do you think it refers to and do you keep those?

 

[Nathan@work]

It says “commandments of God” those are found in Exodus 20.

Your confusing me.

So what makes the 10 commandments Gods, but the rest not?