Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Nathan@work]

Weird, previously you said God does nothing by accident. Now, His Will, His laws that tells us how to obey and love Him and tells us how to love each other has no significance that the laws He wrote and spoke and placed on stone, now means nothing....? You are welcome to believe as you wish, but there IS significance to it being on stone and also placed inside the Ark.

No, there is significance. I never stated there was not.

The significance is not that the ten are to be viewed as having greater authority than the others.

The significance is that they are kept. Kept whole. Kept untouched. Kept in breakable in the Ark.

They are the essence of the rest of the law, not a different part of it.

 

[Bob S]

This was never a point I was not making. God's laws were separated from the other laws. God's laws written by God and on stone, that is significate. Our Creator writing scripture for us! Paul gets to the heart of the matter when he said 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Many laws given to Moses that he wrote on scrolls, not stone were meant for the Israelites during the wilderness. Many of those laws ended at the cross. God's laws are eternal and they teach us the perfect way to love God and to love each other.

How about explaining what the commandments of God are Imge. some say that God gave Israel 316 commands. Where in all of scripture does it tell us that the commandments of God are limited to 10?

 

[Leaf473]

But God said to keep Holy the seventh day. Yes, we should worship Him daily, much different that the instructions in the 4th commandment.

I think the Seventh day is holy to God.

I think where we see it differently is that I believe the others are as well.

 

[Leaf473]

So it’s okay to lie, steal, worship idols, vain His name etc. ?

I think what most people confuse is grace. It’s God’s gift! We are saved by grace through our faith. We keep the law because we are saved and have a new heart. God says He shows mercy to those that keep His commandments. He says this in His commandments. Exodus 20:6

It is not okay to go against the spirit of any of the commandments!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, there is significance. I never stated there was not.

The significance is not that the ten are to be viewed as having greater authority than the others.

The significance is that they are kept. Kept whole. Kept untouched. Kept in breakable in the Ark.

They are the essence of the rest of the law, not a different part of it.

Jesus and Paul summed it up, but we all have free will. I think there is a Heavenly sanctuary that has the same Ten Commandments that was in the Ark of the Covenant inside the earth Temple. Can I prove it from scripture, no, but there is enough there to indicate in my opinion that we will be seeing the Ten in stone in Heaven and New Earth. We are told His laws are eternal Psalms 111:
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think the Seventh day is holy to God.

I think where we see it differently is that I believe the others are as well.

So God gave Himself a commandment?

 

[Leaf473]

I would like to know if what came out of God's mouth was inferior to what He wrote with His finger?

I certainly don't think it is.

 

[Bob S]

It seems like you don't realize that God gave the Law, all of it, to only one nation, Israel. The Law was the words of the covenant we call the old covenant. The old covenant ceased to be when it was replaced with the new covenant. The new covenant is with all mankind, the old one was, as I stated, with only Israel. We today are not under the ritual laws of the now defunct old covenant.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It seems like you don't realize that God gave the Law, all of it, to only one nation, Israel. The Law was the words of the covenant we call the old covenant. The old covenant ceased to be when it was replaced with the new covenant. The new covenant is with all mankind, the old one was, as I stated, with only Israel. We today are not under the ritual laws of the now defunct old covenant.

God writes His laws in our hearts and mind in the New Covenant, the laws did not go away, its still a sin to lie, covet, worship other gods etc they have different promises in the New Covenant.

 

[Nathan@work]

Jesus and Paul summed it up, but we all have free will. I think there is a Heavenly sanctuary that has the same Ten Commandments that was in the Ark of the Covenant in the earth Temple. Can I prove it from scripture, no, but there is enough there to indicate in my opinion that we will be seeing the Ten in stone in Heaven and New Earth. We are told His laws are eternal Psalms 111:
7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

And the book of the law is on the Arks side.

Do you believe the Ark in heaven does not have the book of the law on its side?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Mark tells us in Revelations, God does have a people. His remnant.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We keep all 10 of God’s commandments and there are less and less of us, but it doesn’t have to be. God is calling each of us, its up to you do you also want to be part of His people? The Ten is meant to be a blessing. The other spirit has deceived so many about His laws. God bless and good evening. Will be back later.

 

[Leaf473]

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the curse of the law, which is death, but you are still under God's law (1 Corinthians 9:21).
Gotta' point this out. . ."the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" are not Biblical.

"He has made us competent as ministers of the new covenant-- not of 'the letter' (law), but of 'the Spirit' (grace); for 'the letter' (law) kills, but 'the Spirit' (power of grace) gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Paul is not presenting a "letter of the law" distinct, different or opposed to "the spirit of the law."
He is not presenting an external literal sense of Scripture which kills, in opposition to an inner spiritual sense of Scripture which gives life.

Paul presents only "the letter" and "the Spirit," the law and the Holy Spirit, the law which kills because of its curse on disobedience, and the Holy Spirit who gives life in writing the law on our hearts, enabling us to obey it, in fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant. "The letter" and "the Spirit" are both the law--one external, the other internal, one given without power to obey, the other given with power to obey. To obey the letter is to obey the Spirit. There is no "dead letter" in Scripture.

Paul is not pitting inner attitude against outward obedience, or "inner leading" against the written Word. He is pitting an inability to obey the standard (causing death) against an ability to obey the standard (giving life).

The dead works of Hebrews 6:1, 9:14 (there is no "dead letter" in the NT) mean the works of the law which produce death, due to its curse. (See Ro 7:4-13).

So Scripture teaches that to obey the letter is to obey the Spirit (the law engrafted on our hearts), that in the NT the letter is the Spirit which gives life, that the letter and the Spirit are both the law, and Scripture knows nothing of "obeying the letter of the law without obeying the spirit of the law."

Yes, if we are led by the spirit, we are not under the law. As I understand it, Paul uses that phrase "under the law" to refer to the law given through moses, including the ten commandments.

But we are definitely not without law, we are not lawless. We are under the law of Christ, I agree!

In the passage where Paul talks about the letter killing and the spirit giving life, I believe he is making a pun on the idea which has worked its way into English as the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

The letter is that which was engraved on stones.

But we may see that differently.

I agree that "Paul is not pitting inner attitude against outward obedience",
but I think that is because if one is following the Spirit, what is seen on the outside is obedience, though it may not appear so to one whose mind is set on fleshly things.

 

[Leaf473]

This was never a point I was not making. God's laws were separated from the other laws. God's laws written by God and on stone, that is significate. Our Creator writing scripture for us! Paul gets to the heart of the matter when he said 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Many laws given to Moses that he wrote on scrolls, not stone were meant for the Israelites during the wilderness. Many of those laws ended at the cross. God's laws are eternal and they teach us the perfect way to love God and to love each other.

It seems to me that if God is the author of a set of laws then it is reasonable to call them "God's laws".

But then I don't understand when you say this
"God's laws were separated from the other laws."

If God is the author of the other laws, then they are also God's laws, imo.

If you want to that the ten commandments were separated from the others, that's true!

There are other separations as well, some laws given in other places, some laws given shortly before the entry into canaan.

So yes, there are different sets of laws.

 

[Leaf473]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the New Testament writers never use the word “ten” with the word “commandments”?

So why is it so many people make a distinction between what was written on tablets and what was written on parchment?

Good point. I believe in Romans Paul quotes some of the commandments commonly referred to as the 10 and simply calls them "the law".

 

[Nathan@work]

Mark tells us in Revelations, God does have a people. His remnant.

Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We keep all 10 of God’s commandments and there are less and less of us, but it doesn’t have to be. God is calling each of us, its up to you do you also want to be part of His people? The Ten is meant to be a blessing. The other spirit has deceived so many about His laws. God bless and good evening. Will be back later.

All of His Children keep His commandments.

The remnant is that of Israel. Those who have the Faith of Abraham.

Romans 9

 

[Clare73]

Yes, if we are led by the spirit, we are not under the law. As I understand it, Paul uses that phrase "under the law" to refer to the law given through moses, including the ten commandments.

But we are definitely not without law, we are not lawless. We are under the law of Christ, I agree!

In the passage where Paul talks about the letter killing and the spirit giving life,
I believe he is making a pun on the idea which has worked its way into English as the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.

Paul didn't "pun" an idea already in existence. It is Paul's statement that is being "punned"--misquoted and misappropriated.

The letter is that which was engraved on stones.

The letter means the law that was written; i.e., the law of God.

But we may see that differently.

I agree that "Paul is not pitting inner attitude against outward obedience",
but I think that is because if one is following the Spirit, what is seen on the outside is obedience, though it may not appear so to one whose mind is set on fleshly things.

Paul is not pitting "inner attitude' against "outward obedience" because
that is not what "letter" and "Spirit" mean.

Letter means the "law of God," not "outward obedience," and
Spirit means the "Holy Spirit," not "inner attitude."

 

[Clare73]

All of His Children keep His commandments.

The remnant is that of Israel. Those who have the Faith of Abraham.

Romans 9

The whole of God's people are a remnant, either of the Gentiles or of the Jews.

Only a remnant of all mankind is God's saved people.

 

[Nathan@work]

The whole of God's people are a remnant, either of the Gentiles or of the Jews.

Only a remnant of all mankind is God's saved people.

Right, Paul describes this as a mystery.

Romans 11:25-26 (ESV) Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;

Jew and gentile, those who hold the Faith of Abraham, are the true Israel of God.

Romans 9:6-8 (ESV) But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

[Bob S]

Bob, nice to see you.

Yep, it was good to be banned and do something different. I still love to debate and get the truth out to everyone I can.

Let's talk scripture......

Okay

Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated all through the new testament (scripture support linked) as a requirement for Christian living.

That is simply not true. Nine of the ten dealt with morality, one dealt with a ritual act. Nowhere in the New Testament does it require us to observe a day. Keeping a day is not a requirement.

Jesus and the Apostles all through the new testament scriptures upheld, practiced and taught us that the fruit of God's salvation through God's gift of grace through faith is obedience to the faith and God's law *Romans 1:5 (more scriptures here).

That is once again not true. Paul' teachings throughout all his letters teach that we are saved by grace and not by the works of any law. It is our faith in Jesus as our Saviour that He is true to His word that if we believe in Him we WILL have eternal life. Jn5:24 Our works are of no value as far as salvation is concerned. Our good deeds to our fellow man are the result of being born-again Christians.

Christians are not under the ritual laws given to Israel. All of the laws God has ever given that deal with morality, how we treat our fellow man, are part of the law of love as stated by Jesus in Jn15:10-14. Paul states a few of them in Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Paul also wrote the things that will keep us from having eternal life: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice keeping a day was not in either case.

We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith

Yes, the big BUT. I don't find the big BUT in scripture. If we truly love our Savior, we will be obedient to His will that is a given. The fact is that He never expressed our need to observe a day.

*Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us

Here nis what Paul really wrote in Rom 1: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. I like the plain scripture better than your paraphrase.

*Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Pray tell us just how we can break the commands you suggest when we know they were the words of the old covenant that was replaced by the new covenant? In other word we are not under the Sabbath requirement. It has no bearing on how we live in Christ. Gentile nations were not ever subject to the laws given to Israel. They did not sin for not keeping a day. Christians are not sinning for not keeping a day. We are not sinning because we do not keep Passover as given only to Israel nor do we sin because we cut our sideburns. You have a mixed up theology my friend and I certainly do not and cannot buy into it. Yes, I was fooled once and now I know the real truth. I pray that you too will find that truth.

LOVE IS NOT SEPARATE FROM LAW IT IS EXPRESSED THROUGH IT!

Yes, The Royal Law of ❤.

Jesus says unless we are born again to love we cannot see the kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. Those who are born again do not practice sin according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen God or know him *1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23.

Amen! Since we are not under the ritual laws of the now defunct old covenant we certainly are not sinning, right?

We need a new heart to love and that is what God's new covenant is as shown in the scriptures in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 10:26-31. God knows us that we are all sinners in need of His salvation and Grace *Matthew 9:12-13 and without Gods help we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42.

Beautiful statement until you wrote "without God's help". Makes me think you are saying that we can do most of it on ur own and God only needs to give us a little shove and we can coast to eternal life. Without God we do not have the love of God in us. We are totally dependent on God.

According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

Wrong, Jesus was quoting from the oral words written in the book of the law by Moses, not the 10 commandments. Might I remind you that the 10 were not about ❤, they were about duty. Rom 13: 10 does not say ten commandments, it says law. Israelites didn't cut part of their fields; they were to love their fellow man by sharing their crops with them.

According to the scriptures sin according to John is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and those who practice sin and those who do not is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love we cannot see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7).

By taking those verses out of the whole paragraph you have done a great injustice to the true meaning of what "God's law" Jn is referring. Read on in 1Jn and John will reveal what is really God's law.

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

Notice he never refers to commandments as being the ten commandments.

This is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments.

You can read what Jesus' commandments are in Jn 15:10-14. Hint, Jesus never commands Sabbath observance now does He?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Bob,

Sorry to hear you got banned, I did not know that. Anyway welcome back. Some comments for your consideration below.

LoveGodsWord wrote: Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated all through the new testament (scripture support linked) as a requirement for Christian living.

Your response here.

That is simply not true. Nine of the ten dealt with morality, one dealt with a ritual act. Nowhere in the New Testament does it require us to observe a day. Keeping a day is not a requirement.

Sorry Bob I respectfully disagree as your statement does not agree with scripture. The scripture support was provided showing everyone of God's 10 commandments including God's "seventh day Sabbath" are repeated in the new covenant in the scripture support link. All you have provided here are your words denying God's Word in the scripture support link showing your claims are not true.

LoveGodsWord wrote:Jesus and the Apostles all through the new testament scriptures upheld, practiced and taught us that the fruit of God's salvation through God's gift of grace through faith is obedience to the faith and God's law *Romans 1:5 (more scriptures here).

Your response here...

That is once again not true.

Once again scripture support was provided showing Jesus and the Apostles all through the new testament scriptures upheld, practiced and taught us that the fruit of God's salvation through God's gift of grace through faith is obedience to the faith and God's law *Romans 1:5 (more scriptures here). All you have provided here are your words denying God's Word in the scripture support link showing your claims are not true.

Paul' teachings throughout all his letters teach that we are saved by grace and not by the works of any law. It is our faith in Jesus as our Saviour that He is true to His word that if we believe in Him we WILL have eternal life. Jn5:24 Our works are of no value as far as salvation is concerned. Our good deeds to our fellow man are the result of being born-again Christians.

We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Christians are not under the ritual laws given to Israel. All of the laws God has ever given that deal with morality, how we treat our fellow man, are part of the law of love as stated by Jesus in Jn15:10-14. Paul states a few of them in Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Paul also wrote the things that will keep us from having eternal life: 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

No one said we are under ritual laws Bob so your point here is a mute one. Gods' 10 commandments however have the same role they always have according to the new testament scriptures and that is to give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:4. James says that if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant scriptures are all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part ot God's ISRAEL you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27.

LoveGodsWord wrote:We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith

Your response here..

Yes, the big BUT. I don't find the big BUT in scripture. If we truly love our Savior, we will be obedient to His will that is a given. The fact is that He never expressed our need to observe a day.

You will find it in Romans 1:5 Bob. Grace is for obedience to the faith.

Here nis what Paul really wrote in Rom 1: 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. I like the plain scripture better than your paraphrase.

Not really Bob, the scripture says this..Romans 1:5 [5] By whom we have received grace and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name:[6], Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ:

Pray tell us just how we can break the commands you suggest when we know they were the words of the old covenant that was replaced by the new covenant?

No problem. The old covenant was made up of both God's 10 commandments and the Mosiac book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 that included the "shadow laws" for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices and sin offerings). The role of God's 10 commandments in the new covenant has the same role it always has according to the new testament scriptures and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin and righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to God's Word if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. It is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins that have been fulfilled in the new covenant because they point to Jesus and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. So now Jesus is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36. Jesus is now our great High Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man. Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord wrote: According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

Your response..

Wrong, Jesus was quoting from the oral words written in the book of the law by Moses, not the 10 commandments. Might I remind you that the 10 were not about ❤, they were about duty. Rom 13: 10 does not say ten commandments, it says law. Israelites didn't cut part of their fields; they were to love their fellow man by sharing their crops with them.

Not really Bob please see Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40 (from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18); James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-4 which all disagree with you. Love is expressed through obedience to God's law not by breaking it.

Hope this is helpful Bob, nice to see you