Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Leaf473]

I thought Moses wrote what God instructed him to do...

Exactly, God spoke, Moses wrote.

Edit: come to think of it, in some places God told Moses to speak to the children of Israel, maybe implying some kind of oral tradition?

 

[Leaf473]

I already said the law of Moses was given by God written by Moses. God’s laws was written and spoken by Him. They were also written on stone.

Cool! do we agree then that the law of Moses is written by God in the sense that God is the author?

 

[Bob S]

But God said to keep Holy the seventh day. Yes, we should worship Him daily, much different that the instructions in the 4th commandment.

Yes, God said to Israel, He didn't say it to anyone else, did He?

 

[Bob S]

So it’s okay to lie, steal, worship idols, vain His name etc. ?

Not if we believe Jesus and love Him. Did Jesus steal, lie, worship idols, etc? No, because He loves us and asks us to do the same for all mankind. Simple isn't it?

I think what most people confuse is grace. It’s God’s gift! We are saved by grace through our faith. We keep the law because we are saved and have a new heart. God says He shows mercy to those that keep His commandments. He says this in His commandments. Exodus 20:6

Imge, that is not what your church teaches. According to your church I am lost because I once observed the Israelite Sabbath and turned my back on it. That smacks of salvation by works. I have to perform a ritual law of the old covenant to be saved. Where am I missing the boat?

 

[Bob S]

Cool! do we agree then that the law of Moses is written by God in the sense that God is the author?

I would like to know if what came out of God's mouth was inferior to what He wrote with His finger?

 

[Clare73]

If you try to keep the letter, you will die, imo. The spirit brings life, the letter brings death.

I think that's why it is those who are led by the spirit who are not under the law. If it were my own interpretation of a commandment, you're right! that would be very dangerous!

Do you believe the Spirit has the power to lead you as you walk through life?

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the curse of the law, which is death, but you are still under God's law (1 Corinthians 9:21).

Abolishing the laws or living out the spirit of the laws instead of the letter results in the same thing in practice, imo. So a different way of saying the same thing, I think.

Gotta' point this out. . ."the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" are not Biblical.

"He has made us competent as ministers of the new covenant-- not of 'the letter' (law), but of 'the Spirit' (grace); for 'the letter' (law) kills, but 'the Spirit' (power of grace) gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Paul is not presenting a "letter of the law" distinct, different or opposed to "the spirit of the law."
He is not presenting an external literal sense of Scripture which kills, in opposition to an inner spiritual sense of Scripture which gives life.

Paul presents only "the letter" and "the Spirit," the law and the Holy Spirit, the law which kills because of its curse on disobedience, and the Holy Spirit who gives life in writing the law on our hearts, enabling us to obey it, in fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant. "The letter" and "the Spirit" are both the law--one external, the other internal, one given without power to obey, the other given with power to obey. To obey the letter is to obey the Spirit. There is no "dead letter" in Scripture.

Paul is not pitting inner attitude against outward obedience, or "inner leading" against the written Word. He is pitting an inability to obey the standard (causing death) against an ability to obey the standard (giving life).

The dead works of Hebrews 6:1, 9:14 (there is no "dead letter" in the NT) mean the works of the law which produce death, due to its curse. (See Ro 7:4-13).

So Scripture teaches that to obey the letter is to obey the Spirit (the law engrafted on our hearts), that in the NT the letter is the Spirit which gives life, that the letter and the Spirit are both the law, and Scripture knows nothing of "obeying the letter of the law without obeying the spirit of the law."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

To declare my explanation in Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean? as "untrue" is not a refutation.

You must demonstrate that mine is incorrect, by presenting your own explanation of Heb 3:7-4:13
for my examination, taking into account and being consistent with all its points:
why a warning to Hebrews, of all people, about Sabbath keeping;
multiple references each to unbelief, disobedience, refusal to enter Canaan;
full-time (4:3b-4) Sabbath rest, not a weekly Sabbath rest.

This you have not done.

Not really Clare. The scriptures shared with you in Post # 1006 linked demonstrates your post claims and conclusions were not correct section by section and scripture by scripture with scripture showing the reasons why your post and claims were not true. If you disagree please respond to the linked post and the scriptures provided in it. Your response so far is to simply ignore this post and the scriptures shared with you that show why your claims of Jesus being the Sabbath is simply not biblical. For me personally Clare, your refusal to respond to the scriptures provided in the linked post simply by denial, rinse and repeat without addressing the post's content showing why you might disagree with it is not a response to what was shared with you. The linked post above proves you did not exegete Hebrews 3:7 to Hebrews 4:13 correctly in your post # 715 and was only sent to further discussion on these scriptures for edification. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and you do not have to address my linked post and the scriptures shared with you but your unwillingness to answer this post is telling. The scriptures provided in the linked post were only shared in love and as a help to you. Ignoring God's Word in order to avoid discussion does not make it disappear. Therefore we will have to agree to disagree and end our discussion.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the curse of the law, which is death, but you are still under God's law (1 Corinthians 9:21).
Gotta' point this out. . ."the letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law" are not Biblical.

"He has made us competent as ministers of the new covenant-- not of 'the letter' (law), but of 'the Spirit' (grace); for 'the letter' (law) kills, but 'the Spirit' (power of grace) gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)

Paul is not presenting a "letter of the law" distinct, different or opposed to "the spirit of the law."
He is not presenting an external literal sense of Scripture which kills, in opposition to an inner spiritual sense of Scripture which gives life.

Paul presents only "the letter" and "the Spirit," the law and the Holy Spirit, the law which kills because of its curse on disobedience, and the Holy Spirit who gives life in writing the law on our hearts, enabling us to obey it, in fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant. "The letter" and "the Spirit" are both the law--one external, the other internal, one given without power to obey, the other given with power to obey. To obey the letter is to obey the Spirit. There is no "dead letter" in Scripture.

Paul is not pitting inner attitude against outward obedience, or "inner leading" against the written Word. He is pitting an inability to obey the standard (causing death) against an ability to obey the standard (giving life).

This one I can agree with however, well written.

The dead works of Hebrews 6:1, 9:14 (there is no "dead letter') mean the works of the law which produce death, due to its curse. (See Ro 7:4-13).

So Scripture teaches that to obey the letter is to obey the Spirit (the law engrafted on our hearts), that in the NT the letter is the Spirit which gives life, that the letter and the Spirit are both the law, and Scripture knows nothing of "obeying the letter of the law without obeying the spirit of the law."

This one I can agree with however, well written.

 

[Clare73]

Nonsense. The scriptures shared with you in Post # 1006 linked demonstrates your post claims and conclusions were not correct section by section and scripture by scripture with scripture showing the reasons why your post and claims were not true. If you disagree please respond to the linked post and the scriptures provided in it. Your response so far is to simply ignore this post and the scriptures shared with you that show why your claims of Jesus being the Sabbath is simply not biblical. For me personally Clare, your refusal to respond to the scriptures provided in the linked post simply by denial, rinse and repeat without addressing the post's content showing why you might disagree with it is not a response to what was shared with you. The linked post above proves you did not exegete Hebrews 3:7 to Hebrews 4:13 correctly in your post # 715 and was only sent to further discussion on these scriptures for edification. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and you do not have to address my linked post and the scriptures shared with you but your unwillingness to answer this post is telling. The scriptures provided in the linked post were only shared in love and as a help to you. Ignoring God's Word in order to avoid discussion does not make it disappear. Therefore we will have to agree to disagree and end our discussion.

To declare my explanation in Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean? as "untrue" is not a refutation.

You must demonstrate that mine is incorrect, by presenting your own unified explanation of Heb 3:7-4:13
for my examination, taking into account and being consistent with all its points:
why a warning to Hebrews, of all people, about Sabbath keeping;
multiple references each to unbelief, disobedience, refusal to enter Canaan;
full-time (4:3b-4) Sabbath rest, not a weekly Sabbath rest.

This you have not done.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Cool! do we agree then that the law of Moses is written by God in the sense that God is the author?

This was never a point I was not making. God's laws were separated from the other laws. God's laws written by God and on stone, that is significate. Our Creator writing scripture for us! Paul gets to the heart of the matter when he said 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Many laws given to Moses that he wrote on scrolls, not stone were meant for the Israelites during the wilderness. Many of those laws ended at the cross. God's laws are eternal and they teach us the perfect way to love God and to love each other.

 

[Nathan@work]

Here's just some ideas,

Perhaps God wrote on the stone tablets himself because it takes humans a long time to inscribe something deeply on stone, and Moses' time on the mountain was limited. Also it takes special tools.

Had God written all the instructions on stone tablets, the print would have been too small to read, or they would have been too heavy for Moses to carry.

Why did God want at least some of it on stone? So it could be contrasted later with that which is written on hearts of flesh.

The phrase
Finger of God
may be a Hebrew idiom for "miraculously". That's how Pharaoh's magicians describes some of the miracles.

I believe if a person was to sit down with 10 notebooks, one for each of the ten words, they would find each law written in the book would be under one of the ten.

The book of the law was breaking down what the ten words said.

The idea that they are all ceremonial laws, other than the ten, is simple erroneous.

One good thing to keep in mind is that once the tablets were placed in the Ark, they would never be seen or touched again. God would kill anyone who touched the Ark, which is why it had to be carried with poles.

 

[Nathan@work]

This was never a point I was not making. God's laws were separated from the other laws. God's laws written by God and on stone, that is significate. Our Creator writing scripture for us! Paul gets to the heart of the matter when he said 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. Many laws given to Moses that he wrote on scrolls, not stone were meant for the Israelites during the wilderness. Many of those laws ended at the cross. God's laws are eternal and they teach us the perfect way to love God and to love each other.

The laws were never separated. Where are you reading this?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not if we believe Jesus and love Him. Did Jesus steal, lie, worship idols, etc? No, because He loves us and asks us to do the same for all mankind. Simple isn't it?


Imge, that is not what your church teaches. According to your church I am lost because I once observed the Israelite Sabbath and turned my back on it. That smacks of salvation by works. I have to perform a ritual law of the old covenant to be saved. Where am I missing the boat?

Bob, nice to see you.

Let's talk scripture......

Everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated all through the new testament (scripture support linked) as a requirement for Christian living. Jesus and the Apostles all through the new testament scriptures upheld, practiced and taught us that the fruit of God's salvation through God's gift of grace through faith is obedience to the faith and God's law *Romans 1:5 (more scriptures here).

We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9 but Gods grace is so we can be obedient to the faith *Romans 1:5. Obedience to God's Law is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

LOVE IS NOT SEPARATE FROM LAW IT IS EXPRESSED THROUGH IT!

Jesus says unless we are born again to love we cannot see the kingdom of Heaven in John 3:3-7. Those who are born again do not practice sin according to John in 1 John 3:6-9 and those who do have not seen God or know him *1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23.

We need a new heart to love and that is what God's new covenant is as shown in the scriptures in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Hebrews 10:26-31. God knows us that we are all sinners in need of His salvation and Grace *Matthew 9:12-13 and without Gods help we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42.

According to the scriptures we cannot separate Gods' love from God's law as God's love is expressed through obedience to Gods' law and is why Jesus says that on the two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:36-40; Paul says the same thing as Jesus when he shows in Romans 13:8-10 that love is expressed in obedience to the 10 commandment to our fellow man and that love to man is simply a summary of obedience to God's 10 commandments. This is also agreed to by James when he shows in James 2:8-12 that love is not expressed through breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures sin according to John is the transgression of God's law *1 John 3:4 and those who practice sin and those who do not is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:9-10. Unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise to love we cannot see the kingdom of heaven (John 3:3-7).

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

This is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments.

God bless Bob.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

To declare my explanation in Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean? as "untrue" is not a refutation.

You must demonstrate that mine is incorrect, by presenting your own explanation of Heb 3:7-4:13
for my examination, taking into account and being consistent with all its points:
why a warning to Hebrews, of all people, about Sabbath keeping;
multiple references each to unbelief, disobedience, refusal to enter Canaan;
full-time (4:3b-4) Sabbath rest, not a weekly Sabbath rest.

This you have not done.

Now Clare, I respectfully disagree with what you have written here in your post. I did not declare anything. I provided scripture that proves your claims in regards to Hebrews 4 that Jesus is the Sabbath is incorrect addressing your post section by section and scripture by scripture with scripture, showing you did not exegete Hebrews 3:7 to Hebrews 4:13 correctly in your post # 715. So I respectfully disagree with everything you have said here in your post. Anyhow I have provided the linked post for all to see in post # 1006 linked. We will agree to disagree and end the discussion. You are free to believe as you wish. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, God said to Israel, He didn't say it to anyone else, did He?

According to the scriptures in the new testament Bob, God's ISRAEL are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD

There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...

EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...

ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...

ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...

COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.

If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).

............

CONCLUSION: God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT. Therefore God's ISRAEL in the new covenant is simply everyone who believes and follows Gods' Word

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The laws were never separated. Where are you reading this?

Was there any other laws placed inside the Ark? Did God write any other laws aside from the Ten? Was there any other laws written on stone?

 

[Clare73]

Now Clare, I respectfully disagree with what you have written here in your post. I did not declare anything. I provided scripture that proves your claims in regards to Hebrews 4 that Jesus is the Sabbath is incorrect addressing your post section by section and scripture by scripture with scripture, showing you did not exegete Hebrews 3:7 to Hebrews 4:13 correctly in your post # 715. So I respectfully disagree with everything you have said here in your post. Anyhow I have provided the linked post for all to see in post # 1006 linked. We will agree to disagree and end the discussion. You are free to believe as you wish. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

You must demonstrate that mine is incorrect, by presenting your own explanation of Heb 3:7-4:13
for my examination, taking into account and being consistent with all its points:
why a warning to Hebrews, of all people, about Sabbath keeping;
multiple references each to unbelief, disobedience, refusal to enter Canaan;
full-time (4:3b-4) Sabbath rest, not a weekly Sabbath rest.

This you have not done.

 

[Nathan@work]

Has anybody mentioned yet that the New Testament writers never use the word “ten” with the word “commandments”?

So why is it so many people make a distinction between what was written on tablets and what was written on parchment?

 

[Nathan@work]

Was there any other laws placed inside the Ark? Did God write any other laws aside from the Ten? Was there any other laws written on stone?

Yes. The answer is yes.

Exodus 24:12 (ESV) The LORD said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and wait there, that I may give you the tablets of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You must demonstrate that mine is incorrect, by presenting your own explanation of Heb 3:7-4:13
for my examination, taking into account and being consistent with all its points:
why a warning to Hebrews, of all people, about Sabbath keeping;
multiple references each to unbelief, disobedience, refusal to enter Canaan;
full-time (4:3b-4) Sabbath rest, not a weekly Sabbath rest.

This you have not done.

Well none of that is true Clare as post # 1006 linked does everything your claiming I have not done. Anyhow the linked post is there for all to see what your claiming here is not true. Unless your able to respond to my posts and scriptures that disagree with your claims lets agree to disagree and end the discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though