Religious Exemptions: How the World Would Look If Kim Davis Had Her Way

[TheoNewstoss]

If her job was really afflicting her conscience and violated her Christians convictions to the point where she felt she could no longer do her job, then she should have done the most honorable and honest thing to do and resign from her position. If she had humbly resigned, without making such a public spectacle of herself, then she wouldn't be seen as nothing more than a self-righteous, hypocritical, bigoted religious zealot. Needless to say, she hasn't shown any sign of true honor so far and resigned her position, which makes me think she's relishing in her newfound fame as the "persecuted Christian" from all the public attention and publicity she has brought on herself.

Do you believe the same about Mayor Gavin Newsom of San Francisco who in 2004 directed city officials to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in defiance of California state law?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Doesn't that logically follow from limited atonement?

Probably another thread topic, but why would God create people just to condemn them? That concept is one that I would have a very hard time accepting.

 

[Hank77]

What happened to States having a say on what they want?

We tried. We were overruled by Circuit Courts and now the Supreme Court has ruled that those laws were Unconstitutional.
So the state laws against it have no effect, they are deemed illegal under the US Constitution.

do you think a Catholic pharmacist should be forced to fill a prescription for the Morning After pill that can work as an abortifaciant?

As long as a pharmacist does not carry a particular drug, or contraceptive, in his pharmacy he is not forced to stock it. The problem arises, in any business, when one has a product/service and provides it to some customers but not others.
A Catholic pharmacist is not going to carry this product in his stock at all, problem solved.

Keeping this in mind, Ms Kim S thought that by not giving out any marriage licenses at all she was circumventing this problem of being discriminatory, which in fact she was. But that is not the only issue for her. By law and job description she has to allow her office to provide marriage licenses.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

No, you just agreed with someone else saying it. The person you agreed with was being sarcastic however, and I assumed you weren't. Perhaps I was wrong.

Did I say it was nice that people end up in hell? I don't recall saying that for some reason... Oh yeah, it's cause I didn't say that.

Oh no, another straw man is on fire!

 

[TheoNewstoss]

Probably another thread topic, but why would God create people just to condemn them? That concept is one that I would have a very hard time accepting.

Is it logically possible to create a world full of people with free will where they'll all freely choose to follow you? I don't think so.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

No, you just agreed with someone else saying it. The person you agreed with was being sarcastic however, and I assumed you weren't. Perhaps I was wrong.

The person I agreed with didn't say it either. You're attacking your mischaracterization of what he said. *grabs a fire extinguisher* Don't worry, I'll put out that straw man fire for you.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

The person I agreed with didn't say it either. You're attacking your mischaracterization of what he said. *grabs a fire extinguisher* Don't worry, I'll put out that straw man fire for you.

Well, it seems to me that to a believer it should be a tragedy if even one person ends up in hell.
On the other hand it seems inappropriate to pray for just that. Eternal torture, if such a thing exists, should not be wished on anyone.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Is it logically possible to create a world full of people with free will where they'll all freely choose to follow you? I don't think so.

But that's not the point, is it? They may not all choose, but they all should have the potential to choose. Whether or not they do so may well depend 9n the actions of believers.

 

[MoonlessNight]

To clarify: I do think that a well ordered society with a healthy respect for the rule of law is the ideal, and that in such a society it is best to support the laws generally even in situations where they do not benefit you personally.

I simply do not think that we live in such a society at this point. The notion of limited powers or separation of powers is something which no one takes seriously, neither the citizenry nor government officials. The only thing that keeps any part of the government in check is the competing ambitions of the other parts. Legislators will pass laws that they know are unconstitutional, executives will issue orders that they have no authority to issue and decline to enforce laws which do not please them, the judiciary creates new laws out of thin air and poetic whim. And in large part all three portions have their supporters among citizens: it is very rare to see someone who will support the end aimed for by an abuse of government power but who will criticize the abuse nonetheless.

In such a society it is foolishness to violate your personal principles in an attempt to maintain the rule of law. The status quo is that everyone will use the appearance of law to their own ends. Your opponents will be more than happy to use the law to force you out of your career, or to silence you, or to financially ruin you, regardless of whether you violate your principals or not.

Imagine that you are playing a baseball game and your opponents ask that since it is a friendly match, that your team does not steal bases or bunt. You personally think that those are legitimate strategies in baseball but agree out of a sense of fair play and sportsmanship. Over the course of the game your opponents steal bases and bunt at every opportunity. At this point what reason is there to refrain from stealing a base when you get an opportunity? You have not moral objection to the tactic, it is a legitimate tactic in the rules of baseball, and your opponent shows no hesitation to use the tactic. You aren't showing yourself as being better a man by refusing to steal bases or bunt, you are just unnecessarily impairing your ability to win the game.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

Probably another thread topic, but why would God create people just to condemn them? That concept is one that I would have a very hard time accepting.

But that's not the point, is it? They may not all choose, but they all should have the potential to choose. Whether or not they do so may well depend 9n the actions of believers.

It was and is the point. You asked why God would create people just to condemn them. I responded that it's not possible to create a world full of people with free will and have them all freely choose to follow you. That logically follows. You seem not to understand the concepts we're discussing here very well, hence your consistent confusion and mischaracterizations. Unconditional election and limited atonement make sense in light of our compatibilistic framework. When you understand compatibilism, you'll be able to understand the concept of election a bit better.

 

[mindlight]

* If you're an adherent of Wahhabi Islam you work at the DMV, you no longer have to issue driver's licenses to women.
* If you’re a Jehovah's Witness you can refuse to take Christmas off work. You just show up and do whatever you do all day.
* If you’re Catholic and a pharmacist, you can refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control.
* If you’re a Quaker you could enlist in the army for education benefits and simply refuse to shoot a gun or fight anyone.
* If you’re a Mormon you can get a job at the liquor control board and then refuse to issue any licenses to any bars.
* If you’re a Mormon and you get a job as a health inspector you can refuse to issue reports for any coffee shops serving caffeinated beverages.
* If you are a Rastafarian, you can work anywhere and refuse to attend any important meeting where you are not allowed to smoke your chalice of herb.
* If you are Amish, you can get a job as a high school teacher and then just not show up to work, ever, since children should not be educated past the eighth grade.
* If you're a Christian Scientist cab driver, you don't have to take anyone to the hospital, even if they’re dying.
* If you’re a cop who is also a member of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you refuse to take off your pirate regalia and put on your police uniform.
* If you’re Hindu and get a job as a USDA livestock inspector, you can refuse to inspect cattle marked for slaughter. A Muslim or Orthodox Jewish inspector might decide the same for pork.
* If you’re Jewish, you can get a job at a school cafeteria and refuse to prepare non-kosher meals.
* If you’re a Seventh Day Adventist and a mail carrier, you can refuse to work on Saturday but and deliver your route on Sunday instead.
* If you’re a Jain and a sanitation worker, you could refuse to compact trash because it kills bugs.
* If you’re a Hare Krishna bodega employee, you can refuse to honor winning lottery scratchers.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/blog-...orld_would_look_if_kim_davis_had_her_way.html

If you are right and the law is an ass then you are right and the law is an ass!

 

[Rhamiel]

It is not mocking to expect a person to do their job. The job that they pursued. The job that choose. The job no one is forcing them to be in.

I only hear you and other liberals say stuff like this when it is politically convenient
this leads me to believe that you do not really have a respect for the law
but that you only wish it to be administered when it serves your purpose

for example, liberals seem to have no interest in enforcing immigration laws that were passed by democratic means
but activist judges who impose their will on the nation, well then it is just "following the law"

 

[Rhamiel]

You don't have to accept, you don't even have to be involved in it if you don't want to. No one is forcing Kim Davis to be a county clerk.

to be frank
I do not even really care about this issue
it just makes me sad that you never support Christians who believe in the Bible but you seem to support perverts and atheists all the time

way to be a team player
way to look out for your own

what's the old saying "with friends like these..."

 

[TheoNewstoss]

To clarify: I do think that a well ordered society with a healthy respect for the rule of law is the ideal, and that in such a society it is best to support the laws generally even in situations where they do not benefit you personally.

I simply do not think that we live in such a society at this point. The notion of limited powers or separation of powers is something which no one takes seriously, neither the citizenry nor government officials. The only thing that keeps any part of the government in check is the competing ambitions of the other parts. Legislators will pass laws that they know are unconstitutional, executives will issue orders that they have no authority to issue and decline to enforce laws which do not please them, the judiciary creates new laws out of thin air and poetic whim. And in large part all three portions have their supporters among citizens: it is very rare to see someone who will support the end aimed for by an abuse of government power but who will criticize the abuse nonetheless.

In such a society it is foolishness to violate your personal principles in an attempt to maintain the rule of law. The status quo is that everyone will use the appearance of law to their own ends. Your opponents will be more than happy to use the law to force you out of your career, or to silence you, or to financially ruin you, regardless of whether you violate your principals or not.

Imagine that you are playing a baseball game and your opponents ask that since it is a friendly match, that your team does not steal bases or bunt. You personally think that those are legitimate strategies in baseball but agree out of a sense of fair play and sportsmanship. Over the course of the game your opponents steal bases and bunt at every opportunity. At this point what reason is there to refrain from stealing a base when you get an opportunity? You have not moral objection to the tactic, it is a legitimate tactic in the rules of baseball, and your opponent shows no hesitation to use the tactic. You aren't showing yourself as being better a man by refusing to steal bases or bunt, you are just unnecessarily impairing your ability to win the game.

"Because we have no government, armed with power, capable of contending with human passions, unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams​

 

[TheoNewstoss]

it just makes me sad that you never support Christians who believe in the Bible but you seem to support perverts and atheists all the time

 

[MikeK]

Oh my Jesus,
forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell,
and lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of your Mercy.
Amen.

 

[Red Fox]

Edited post.

 

[TheoNewstoss]

It seems like it has become necessary for a quick reminder of some specific rules of this Christian site.

(1) ● NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, or smileys clearly meant to goad.

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(4) ● Do not attack another member's character or actions in any way, address only the content of their post and not the member personally.

(5) ● Be considerate and do not make another member's experience on this site miserable.
This includes making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.

Christian Forum Rules

Maintain the peace and harmony of CF by not rehashing alleged grievances or disputes, publicly complaining about posts, threads, Christian Forums or its staff.

Just report the posts you think violate the rules. We're all adults here. We can engage in dialogue without constant rule reminders.

 

[Red Fox]

Oh my Jesus,
forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of hell,
and lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of your Mercy.
Amen.

That is a very nice prayer. Thank you for sharing it, Mike.

 

[MikeK]

That is a very nice prayer. Thank you for sharing it, Mike.

Catholics around the world are praying it in the Real Presence of Our Lord at every momment of every day. That is a very encouraging thing, and I appreciate their fidelity to Our Lord and His Church.