Religious conscience and providing services

[variant]

I don't consider your characterization of the debate to be an honest one, either.

What's dishonest about it?

Do you think I don't believe my own characterization of the issue? Odd.

 

[KnowtheSilence]

Yes, in the first instance. Because homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, a behavior.

No, to the second question.
Because race is genetic, not a lifestyle choice or a behavior.

Someone doesn't choose to be Chinese.
While the same can not be said for homosexuals.
When homosexuals have said they chose to turn gay for whatever reason that individual sharing that intimate truth gives, anyone who advocates for homosexuals can not condemn that personal testimony and still claim to respect the choice or the individual homosexual.

Thank you, but the second questions also asked about interreligious weddings; religion is not genetic, of course, so what would your opinion be in that instance?

 

[Deacon001]

What's dishonest about it?

For you and TKV: why are you on a "Christian" forum? Do you not understand Christianity?

You do understand that Christianity frowns on certain kinds of sexual behavior, like adultery? Do you have a problem with that? No? How about pederasty? Do you have a problem with that? No? How about beastiality? No?

Or maybe you are for bestiality, adultery, and pederasty. At least that would be consistent, and it would make more sense.

What if I was a hotel owner and I said I would not cater to prostitutes and johns. Would you have a problem with that? Would you have a problem with me not serving those who engage in bestiality?

Why does our objection to homosexuality bother you? Why does our practicing our faith bother you? Why does Christians owning businesses bother you? Does Christians voting bother you, too?

Do you have a problem with the Amish? They don't like modern society at all. Do you have a problem with that? Or would you be the type to make them drive cars and use power tools whether they believe in it or not?

How about the example of the Muslim restauranteur? Should he be serving pork chops because someone thinks they have the right to be served pork chops in a Muslim owned restaurant?

How about Buddhists? Should steak houses be forced to provide vegetarian menus for them? I have been in several Indian vegetarian restaurants. Should they be forced to serve steaks?

Where does it end? This is a great big world and believe it or not, there are people in it who don't believe what you believe and you can't make them do it.

It all comes down to one thing: politics. Not "morality". People who would ask a religious person (ANY religious person) to go against their beliefs for the sake of politics has no business talking about morality.

And don't bother bringing up the old song and dance about the baker making cakes for everybody else, because I am sure the baker doesn't make gay wedding cakes for heteros. That is a service they do not provide for anybody.

 

[TLK Valentine]

These are the kinds of mindless arguments that makes engaging the left on any kind of intellectual level maddening. It's like trying to nail Jello to a tree.

The problem isn't mindlessness, it's that your looking for an argument where none existed. I agreed with you, and you responded with nothing but vitriol. Why?

 

[TLK Valentine]

For you and TKV: why are you on a "Christian" forum?

Speaking only for myself, I was invited here by a Christian. How about you?

 

[Deacon001]

The problem isn't mindlessness, it's that your looking for an argument where none existed. I agreed with you, and you responded with nothing but vitriol. Why?

You called me/mine "morally repugnant" and "bigots". I don't know what charm school you went to but where I come from those are fighting words.

 

[Deacon001]

Speaking only for myself, I was invited here by a Christian. How about you?

I AM a Christian. And you should be careful about going to Christian forums, there just might be Christians there.

 

[variant]

Why does our objection to homosexuality bother you? Why does our practicing our faith bother you? Why does Christians owning businesses bother you? Does Christians voting bother you, too?

It bothers me because you are using your public buisness to moralize to people when their completely legal activities bother you.

Refusing services you would otherwise render. Like catering.

Do you have a problem with the Amish? They don't like modern society at all. Do you have a problem with that? Or would you be the type to make them drive cars and use power tools whether they believe in it or not?

The Amish don't open up public buisnesses and then refuse to serve people to admonish them.

How about the example of the Muslim restauranteur? Should he be serving pork chops because someone thinks they have the right to be served pork chops in a Muslim owned restaurant?

How about Buddhists? Should steak houses be forced to provide vegetarian menus for them? I have been in several Indian vegetarian restaurants. Should they be forced to serve steaks?

No, that's not what their buisnesses do. Were talking about a cake bakery decorating a cake though, it is exactly what they do.

But I would entirely be upset about a Muslim or Buddhist with public restaurant not serving you because you are a Christian.

It all comes down to one thing: politics. Not "morality". People who would ask a religious person (ANY religious person) to go against their beliefs for the sake of politics has no business talking about morality.

I'm talking about moralizing not morality. Decorating a cake is not against the persons beliefs, they just want to enforce their beliefs on others by not decorating one.

And don't bother bringing up the old song and dance about the baker making cakes for everybody else, because I am sure the baker doesn't make gay wedding cakes for heteros. That is a service they do not provide for anybody.

They make wedding cakes. What specifically makes a wedding cake gay? Two men or women on top? let someone else put the sugar people on top if it bothers them so much.

 

[bhsmte]

I AM a Christian. And you should be careful about going to Christian forums, there just might be Christians there.

Why would one need to be careful of Christians?

 

[variant]

Why would one need to be careful of Christians?

I don't know, he's getting pretty Internet tough guy on us.

 

[Deacon001]

It bothers me because you are using your public buisness to moralize to people when their completely legal activities bother you.

And you would use the force of law to moralize to people whose completely legal activities bother YOU. If selling cakes is not illegal why should NOT selling cakes be illegal?

Refusing services you would otherwise render. Like catering.

I guarantee you that the bakery does not make "gay" wedding cakes for sale to anyone.

 

[morningstar2651]

Question: If it is a violation of religious freedom to require certain businesses (florists, bakers, DJ's, venue owners, etc.) to provide their services in support of a same-sex wedding when such unions violate the owner's religious conscience, is it not equally as great a violation if a business owner is required to provide services for interreligious or interracial weddings when they have a religious objection to those?

I've wondered this since I started hearing about bakers and florists getting fined or sued for not wanting to be a part of a same-sex wedding, and now that we're hearing about states trying to pass legislation that will prevent those penalties from being leveled against business owners in those situations. I understand that current laws would not make it possible for a business to refuse service if the reason has to do with the client's race or religion, but don't those laws violate religious liberty just as much as the laws that would require providing services to same-sex weddings?

If the answer is "yes," what, if anything, should be done about it?

Related question: Do sincerely held religious beliefs absolve one of any crimes committed in the following of those beliefs, such as human sacrifice, sacred prostitution, or discrimination against a protected class of people?

 

[Deacon001]

Why would one need to be careful of Christians?

You might hear things you don't agree with.

 

[variant]

And you would use the force of law to moralize to people whose completely legal activities bother YOU. If selling cakes is not illegal why should NOT selling cakes be illegal?

It is because selling cakes is the basic idea of their buisness so picking and choosing who you sell to merely to moralize to them is something I don't think they have the right to.

I guarantee you that the bakery does not make "gay" wedding cakes for sale to anyone.

Again, what makes a wedding cake a gay wedding cake?

There are plenty of objections to cake decorating that I might support, but simple outright refusal because they're gay isn't one of them.

 

[morningstar2651]

And you would use the force of law to moralize to people whose completely legal activities bother YOU. If selling cakes is not illegal why should NOT selling cakes be illegal?

Selling cakes is legal. Not selling cakes is legal.

Selling cakes only to whites, Jews, males, or straights is illegal.

See Also:
Jim Crow laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Brown v. Board of Education - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Civil Rights Act of 1964 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Voting Rights Act of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Deacon001]

Related question: Do sincerely held religious beliefs absolve one of any crimes committed in the following of those beliefs, such as human sacrifice, sacred prostitution, or discrimination against a protected class of people?

You are comparing "discrimination" with human sacrifice and prostitution?

BTW, this society discriminates constantly, it's just a question of whose ox is being gored, isn't it?

 

[bhsmte]

You might hear things you don't agree with.

So what?

 

[Deacon001]

It is because selling cakes is the basic idea of their buisness so picking and choosing who you sell to merely to moralize to them is something I don't think they have the right to.

Wedding cakes are all special order, they are a lot of work and a lot of money. No one should be forced to make one.

If it's just a cake you want, there will be one for sale, I promise, and anybody can buy it, and do with it what you want when you leave the shop.

 

[Deacon001]

So what?

It seems to be a problem for some.

 

[TLK Valentine]

You called me/mine "morally repugnant" and "bigots". I don't know what charm school you went to but where I come from those are fighting words.

Two things:

1: I do find what you're advocating to be morally repugnant, and your rationalizations are not likely to change my mind. Yet I agree to tolerate it, regardless of how I personally feel about it. That's what tolerance is all about, after all.

Is tolerance not enough for you? Do you want more? What, then?

2: I never called "you" a bigot, and "yours," whoever they are, are only "your" bigots if you choose to accept them as your own, in which case that's on you, not me.

My point is and has always been that bigots -- real bigots -- might flock to Christianity in droves precisely because it would give them a legal justification to act on their bigotry... I was curious what a genuine Christian, such as yourself, would feel about the ramifications of that.

This far, I've gotten a lot of insults, but no answer. Care to calm down, count to ten, and try?