Religion is necessary, but not sufficient, for morality

[fschmidt]

Both Christianity and Islam have produced successful cultures. But today, both fail. Islam failed some time ago and Christian nations are in obvious decline today. So what changed? The religious texts and early writings have not changed. I believe that intelligence and morality has dropped for both cultural and genetic reasons.

Someone with a good heart but a dysfunctional brain is not able to distinguish between good and evil. And religion cannot fix this. One needs intelligence to properly apply religious teachings. And one needs a moral sense to even care. Modern culture promotes stupidity and immorality both through how children are raised and through dysgenic selection which lowers the quality of the human gene pool.

I have written about these issues at length on my Arkian website. I have posted about this to a Mennonite forum and a Muslim forum. Now I hope to get general Christian feedback here.

 

[VCR-2000]

Well, in the Islamic world same-sex relationships and many other things still are at least nominally very taboo, even though they have other different corruptions of their own.

 

[timewerx]

The problem with everyone in religion (without any exceptions) is no one is brave enough to get out of their comfort zone and to scrutinize the things they believe in.

They fear losing their salvation or losing their soul. Would that be thing Jesus warned us about (Matthew 16:25). If you seek to save your life, you will lose it. It's very likely Jesus isn't only talking about saving our physical bodies but also our very souls.

Because if you fear losing your soul, you get trapped into whatever belief system that tells you they know a way how to save your soul. It's only a matter of who (what religion) got to you first.

And then there's happiness. Most religious people I know if you're not "grilling" them about the truth, they will only speak of two reasons why they joined a particular religion, it's only about saving their skin or saving their soul and seeking happiness. Again, there are no exceptions. I found the same problem in most Christians as well.

It's NOT about seeking the truth. So we end up harming / corrupting other people with our errant beliefs because we have no care for the truth as compared to our happiness and salvation.

That's the problem with religion and if you don't care about the truth, you are bound / doomed to misinterpret religious teachings and end up harming / deceiving other people even if that isn't your intentions "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

[lover of God]

after reading your claims in full, your focus is clear. your focus is an ideal Earth. your focus is Earthly success. you want a nation that remains, a people that are uniformly intelligent and successful.

kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. people return to sin. not because they are oh so inferior and unintelligent and need a fixer-upper to make a master race (hmmm.. sound like anyone?), but because everyone is born a slave to sin. yes, 'dysgenic selection' occurs, which is just a fancy term for sexual selection based on conventional attractiveness, not because humans are suddenly inferior-minded but because of the "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16). this is the way life has always been, "nothing new under the sun", and if you have studied history thoroughly as you claim, you will know there are many intellectuals who come about, looking to "fix" humanity. none succeed. no matter how you dress up your words or brand your movement, your passion is the same as every eugenicist of the past.

you complain that religion is not enough to be moral. and yet you support and even try to enforce eugenics, which is not only immoral but scientifically erroneous and has failed every time. because what is failure? failure is the unjust death of God's creation. the same sin afflicts us all: in the hardened, ignorant hearts of those who are blinded by lust, and in the hardened, ignorant hearts of those who, in 1927, took advantage when "the Supreme Court ruled that forced sterilization of the handicapped does not violate the U.S. Constitution. In the words of Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, "...three generations of imbeciles are enough." In 1942, the ruling was overturned, but not before thousands of people underwent the procedure." it is the same sin that bid the Holocaust occur.

again, you complain that religion is not enough to be moral. but to truly accept Christ, you acknowledge that He is Lord, He has risen from the dead, and with His blood, He becomes the substitution for your sin. God's presence and omnipotence has been revealed both in general revelation (in the cosmological witness of our perfectly ordered universe) and in special revelation (through the divinely inspired and objectively authoritative scripture). you want to create an ideal people, but the people are inherently flawed (NO MATTER THE GENETICS) without a Savior, and this world is passing away. this lifetime is only a blip in the neverending span of eternity. and "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

this world cannot be perfected. "the world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever". this racial planning nonsense is not the will of God.

every man is made in God's image. Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

i think this summarizes the premise well enough to close.

"Eugenics is a meritless and immoral social engineering experiment. It is a slippery slope in which Chesterton’s scientific madmen abrogate the authority of God and seek to create their own utopia on Earth. Centuries ago, Job lamented the evil of his day: “When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up, kills the poor and needy, and in the night steals forth like a thief” (Job 24:14). This is the role of eugenicist: killing the poor and needy and those he deems “unworthy,” preventing a “poor quality of life” (in his estimation) by taking life, denying men’s liberty, and playing God.

One day as Jesus and His disciples were walking in Jerusalem, His disciples asked about a man born blind. They wanted to know “who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2). Jesus replied, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, . . . but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him” (verse 3). Who are we to decide who does or does not display the works of God?"

find the truth and know where you will spend eternity. i pray that you may feel the Lord's presence and deep love for you today. God bless you!

 

[Jonaitis]

deleted by user

 

[VCR-2000]

after reading your claims in full, your focus is clear. your focus is an ideal Earth. your focus is Earthly success. you want a nation that remains, a people that are uniformly intelligent and successful.

kingdoms rise and kingdoms fall. people return to sin. not because they are oh so inferior and unintelligent and need a fixer-upper to make a master race (hmmm.. sound like anyone?), but because everyone is born a slave to sin. yes, 'dysgenic selection' occurs, which is just a fancy term for sexual selection based on conventional attractiveness, not because humans are suddenly inferior-minded but because of the "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16). this is the way life has always been, "nothing new under the sun", and if you have studied history thoroughly as you claim, you will know there are many intellectuals who come about, looking to "fix" humanity. none succeed. no matter how you dress up your words or brand your movement, your passion is the same as every eugenicist of the past.

you complain that religion is not enough to be moral. and yet you support and even try to enforce eugenics, which is not only immoral but scientifically erroneous and has failed every time. because what is failure? failure is the unjust death of God's creation. the same sin afflicts us all: in the hardened, ignorant hearts of those who are blinded by lust, and in the hardened, ignorant hearts of those who, in 1927, took advantage when "the Supreme Court ruled that forced sterilization of the handicapped does not violate the U.S. Constitution. In the words of Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendall Holmes, "...three generations of imbeciles are enough." In 1942, the ruling was overturned, but not before thousands of people underwent the procedure." it is the same sin that bid the Holocaust occur.

again, you complain that religion is not enough to be moral. but to truly accept Christ, you acknowledge that He is Lord, He has risen from the dead, and with His blood, He becomes the substitution for your sin. God's presence and omnipotence has been revealed both in general revelation (in the cosmological witness of our perfectly ordered universe) and in special revelation (through the divinely inspired and objectively authoritative scripture). you want to create an ideal people, but the people are inherently flawed (NO MATTER THE GENETICS) without a Savior, and this world is passing away. this lifetime is only a blip in the neverending span of eternity. and "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

this world cannot be perfected. "the world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever". this racial planning nonsense is not the will of God.

every man is made in God's image. Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

i think this summarizes the premise well enough to close.

"Eugenics is a meritless and immoral social engineering experiment. It is a slippery slope in which Chesterton’s scientific madmen abrogate the authority of God and seek to create their own utopia on Earth. Centuries ago, Job lamented the evil of his day: “When daylight is gone, the murderer rises up, kills the poor and needy, and in the night steals forth like a thief” (Job 24:14). This is the role of eugenicist: killing the poor and needy and those he deems “unworthy,” preventing a “poor quality of life” (in his estimation) by taking life, denying men’s liberty, and playing God.

One day as Jesus and His disciples were walking in Jerusalem, His disciples asked about a man born blind. They wanted to know “who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2). Jesus replied, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, . . . but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him” (verse 3). Who are we to decide who does or does not display the works of God?"

find the truth and know where you will spend eternity. i pray that you may feel the Lord's presence and deep love for you today. God bless you!

Why can't we enjoy both earthly success and spiritual simultaneously?

 

[fschmidt]

Why can't we enjoy both earthly success and spiritual simultaneously?

Do Christians ever think about what the Lord's Prayer means? Matthew 6:10 essentially says to try to make Earth more like Heaven. And this requires a fair amount of intelligence to do.

 

[lover of God]

Why can't we enjoy both earthly success and spiritual simultaneously?

of course, if God gives you blessings on this Earth, it is for a purpose. but, this Earth is passing away and so will all your symbols of success. compared to the expanse of eternity, your possessions are dust.

being conventionally successful means retaining a bit: not giving to others, but withholding. you cannot worship both God and money, Jesus says you can only love one.

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Philippians 2:3-4

and Mark 10:17-31:
"And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” Peter began to say to him, “See, we have left everything and followed you.” Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

i hope these words can be an encouragement to you, brother. i once strived hard in the name of Earthly success.. very hard. working into the night in the name of recognition and vanity.

i worked myself to a place where i could no longer go on.. but then i opened the Scriptures, i was comforted. i knew what it was to be content, no matter my circumstance. i had all the joy i needed.

i really like this song reminds me of that time.

 

[lover of God]

Do Christians ever think about what the Lord's Prayer means? Matthew 6:10 essentially says to try to make Earth more like Heaven. And this requires a fair amount of intelligence to do.

this answer does not sufficiently answer his question. and with it has one of the most absurd interpretations of the Scripture i have seen. Matthew 6:10 asks that God's plan happens as it is intended. praying for what God wants to happen is to accept that His plan is good and right for everyone.
God's plan is going to happen anyway. but this line means that the speaker invites His work with open arms, praying that the will of the Lord be done through their life.
i am reminded of the second to last verse of the entire Bible. "He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!". Jesus is already coming. with this phrase, we only invite Him with joy.
so no. Matthew 6:10 is not a call to make us all more genetically intelligent in order to foster some utopia. only God can rightly usher such a change (as in, a utopia) in.

this is why i read your website, so i may know what you are truly saying with these words. i do not want anyone else to be blinded.

 

[timewerx]

i hope these words can be an encouragement to you, brother. i once strived hard in the name of Earthly success.. very hard. working into the night in the name of recognition and vanity.

being conventionally successful means retaining a bit: not giving to others, but withholding. you cannot worship both God and money, Jesus says you can only love one.

I never chased success but I used to have a good career. I was both a Christian and had a good career.

But it was a place of darkness. Now I acknowledge how extremely effective worldly things at distracting people from things that truly matter. Distracting you from the truth.

When I see Christians say they already know that but makes a high priority of achieving worldly success is playing with fire and risk a very high chance of failing to see the truth and falling into the trap of ignorance.

This is why sadly most people in religion without exceptions (Christians included). Have very little idea of what constitutes the real morality where you start to work for the good of everyone, not just for a few people (the corrupt system where money is their false god).

 

[Estrid]

Both Christianity and Islam have produced successful cultures. But today, both fail. Islam failed some time ago and Christian nations are in obvious decline today. So what changed? The religious texts and early writings have not changed. I believe that intelligence and morality has dropped for both cultural and genetic reasons.

Someone with a good heart but a dysfunctional brain is not able to distinguish between good and evil. And religion cannot fix this. One needs intelligence to properly apply religious teachings. And one needs a moral sense to even care. Modern culture promotes stupidity and immorality both through how children are raised and through dysgenic selection which lowers the quality of the human gene pool.

I have written about these issues at length on my Arkian website. I have posted about this to a Mennonite forum and a Muslim forum. Now I hope to get general Christian feedback here.

Necessary? Totally unevidenced assertion.

Often it's incompatible. That is highly evidenced.

 

[Whyayeman]

Modern culture promotes stupidity and immorality both through how children are raised and through dysgenic selection which lowers the quality of the human gene pool.

Modern culture in America, maybe, though I doubt it. Be careful about commenting on the 'genetic gene pool'. Some people might think the solution lies in eugenics. The expression 'dysgenic selection' only strengthens that suspicion.

Religion is not necessary for morality and has no special place in it.

 

[Estrid]

Modern culture in America, maybe, though I doubt it. Be careful about commenting on the 'genetic gene pool'. Some people might think the solution lies in eugenics. The expression 'dysgenic selection' only strengthens that suspicion.

Religion is not necessary for morality and has no special place in it.

That was plain old undecorated eugenics.
Combined with religious ideas of purity
and virtue, a lethal combo if very many
get on board.

As a awful Asian alien atheist i ran into
more than American who wanted me dead.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Both Christianity and Islam have produced successful cultures. But today, both fail. Islam failed some time ago and Christian nations are in obvious decline today. So what changed? The religious texts and early writings have not changed. I believe that intelligence and morality has dropped for both cultural and genetic reasons.

Someone with a good heart but a dysfunctional brain is not able to distinguish between good and evil. And religion cannot fix this. One needs intelligence to properly apply religious teachings. And one needs a moral sense to even care. Modern culture promotes stupidity and immorality both through how children are raised and through dysgenic selection which lowers the quality of the human gene pool.

I have written about these issues at length on my Arkian website. I have posted about this to a Mennonite forum and a Muslim forum. Now I hope to get general Christian feedback here.

One actually needs the Holy Spirit in order to conquer the flesh which perpetuates man made religiosity. Blessings.

 

[Whyayeman]

One actually needs the Holy Spirit in order to conquer the flesh which perpetuates man made religiosity. Blessings.

'Conquer the flesh'? Morality is about rather more than naughty bits!

 

[Ken-1122]

Both Christianity and Islam have produced successful cultures. But today, both fail. Islam failed some time ago and Christian nations are in obvious decline today.

That is your personal opinion; there are many in those religions who will disagree with you.

So what changed? The religious texts and early writings have not changed.

Morality is always in a constant state of change, the further you go back in history, the more morality is different than it is today; it has always been that way. The problem is; though morality changes, the religious texts do not, so as time goes on, morality will move further and further away from those religious texts. Look at moral issues like racism, or even slavery; 2,000 years ago that was morally acceptable but today it is not. Who is to say yesterdays morality is better than today's?

Someone with a good heart but a dysfunctional brain is not able to distinguish between good and evil. And religion cannot fix this.

Actually many religions require a good heart but a dysfunctional brain. Many religious people believe God is the only one capable of distinguishing right from wrong, because our dysfunctional brains are incapable of figuring this out for ourselves; heck if we could we wouldn’t need that religion for morality; right?

One needs intelligence to properly apply religious teachings.

Some of the most intelligent religious people in the world will still disagree with religious teachings because the books religions are based on usually are written in a way where nearly any agenda and view one might have can be confirmed as long as you are willing to focus on specific parts while ignoring others. How do you think all of those different sects and denominations came about?

Do Christians ever think about what the Lord's Prayer means? Matthew 6:10 essentially says to try to make Earth more like Heaven. And this requires a fair amount of intelligence to do.

The part of the Lords Prayer that says “on earth as it is in heaven” is not about making earth more like heaven, it’s about God’s will being done on Earth, just as his will is done in Heaven

 

[Maria Billingsley]

'Conquer the flesh'? Morality is about rather more than naughty bits!

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Jesus Christ of Nazareth

 

[fschmidt]

That is your personal opinion; there are many in those religions who will disagree with you.

The decline of Islam is so obvious that even many Muslims agree. One can look at the intellectual output of a group/religion/culture to judge it. Since Christianity only recently went into decline, this is less obvious. But my post is aimed at those with the discernment to see it.

Morality is always in a constant state of change, the further you go back in history, the more morality is different than it is today; it has always been that way. The problem is; though morality changes, the religious texts do not, so as time goes on, morality will move further and further away from those religious texts. Look at moral issues like racism, or even slavery; 2,000 years ago that was morally acceptable but today it is not. Who is to say yesterdays morality is better than today's?

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 answers this perfectly. Human nature hasn't changed significantly. Modern immorality is basically the same as the inverted morals of every decaying civilization in history. Good morals are those that correlate with rising culture and inversely correlate with declining culture. Bad morals correlate with declining cultures and inversely correlate with rising cultures. The writings from decaying Rome and decaying Athens condemning their immorality apply perfectly to modern culture.

Actually many religions require a good heart but a dysfunctional brain. Many religious people believe God is the only one capable of distinguishing right from wrong, because our dysfunctional brains are incapable of figuring this out for ourselves;

These religions have a point. When people become too stupid to judge anything, it is best that they are guided by blind faith. But I would prefer that people weren't so stupid.

heck if we could we wouldn’t need that religion for morality; right?

Knowing the theory of athletics doesn't make one an athlete. Religion is a system that provides a variety of tools to develop morality.

Some of the most intelligent religious people in the world will still disagree with religious teachings because the books religions are based on usually are written in a way where nearly any agenda and view one might have can be confirmed as long as you are willing to focus on specific parts while ignoring others. How do you think all of those different sects and denominations came about?

Yes, which is why sola scriptura (Karaites, Quranists, and Protestants) always leads to depravity. Scripture needs context. My preferred context is science and history. But regardless of which context is chosen, intelligent people will produce better results, even if these results differ.

The part of the Lords Prayer that says “on earth as it is in heaven” is not about making earth more like heaven, it’s about God’s will being done on Earth, just as his will is done in Heaven

If people have free will and choose to do evil, then how exactly would God's will be done on Earth? For God's will to be done on Earth, people have to do God's will.

 

[Whyayeman]

40 Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “What! Could you not watch with Me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Jesus Christ of Nazareth

Yes, yes. But morality is about more than the naughty bits.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 answers this perfectly. Human nature hasn't changed significantly. Modern immorality is basically the same as the inverted morals of every decaying civilization in history. Good morals are those that correlate with rising culture and inversely correlate with declining culture. Bad morals correlate with declining cultures and inversely correlate with rising cultures. The writings from decaying Rome and decaying Athens condemning their immorality apply perfectly to modern culture.

I disagree! History is full of examples of morally corrupt civilizations becoming very rich and powerful due to their corruption. Look at the examples of the Dahomey and Manikongo who became very powerful and rich capturing people and selling them into slavery. And when slavery ended, they became poor and weak. Morality has nothing to do with financial success and power.

These religions have a point. When people become too stupid to judge anything, it is best that they are guided by blind faith. But I would prefer that people weren't so stupid.

Religion does not say that. Religion says people are too corrupt too wicked to judge anything so it has to be left up to God. Smart vs stupid has nothing to do with it.

Knowing the theory of athletics doesn't make one an athlete. Religion is a system that provides a variety of tools to develop morality.

Religion is just one of countless sources that provides such tools.

Yes, which is why sola scriptura (Karaites, Quranists, and Protestants) always leads to depravity. Scripture needs context. My preferred context is science and history. But regardless of which context is chosen, intelligent people will produce better results, even if these results differ.

If that were true, intelligent people would be morally superior to those of less intelligence. A quick look into the real world and you will see that is far from the truth.

If people have free will and choose to do evil, then how exactly would God's will be done on Earth? For God's will to be done on Earth, people have to do God's will.

The lords prayer is reference to the person or group praying, not the entire world. In order to make Earth more like Heaven, you would need the cooperation of everybody on Earth.