Religion and Indigenous Identity

[Tone]

Really we have the same experience. Spanish was the other language they didn’t teach me. SAME reason. Working on my spanish and native language

You should keep learning Nahuatl it’s beautiful

Were you raised Christian or Catholic?

My earliest childhood memories are watching a bunch of grownups all around me speaking in tongues, movies about the mark of the beast, and street outreaches in the L.A. area.

When my Mom remarried, we (my sister and I) had to attend a church meeting every sunday. My step dad led the way into more mainstream christianity.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The Virgin of Guadalupe is based on the idea of the Aztec goddess Tonantzin. It is a story to indoctrinate us.

You should really go and read the history here. The Virgin of Guadalupe was a completely indigineous development within a Nahautl speaking group. Juan Diego could not speak Spanish, only Nahautl, and our earliest record of it is also in Nahuatl in Latin script. The Clergy were deeply divided over this Marian apparition in colonial Mexico, so saying it is a story meant to indoctrinate is nonsense. Here are a couple of old posts I wrote on this topic, but I suggest you go look up the history yourself, as you seem to have been reading a biased narrative.

Aztec Mythology.

The first thing here is of course the pervasiveness of human sacrifice. The fact that human sacrifice is required to sustain existence and human life, is already a parallel of sorts in the necessity of Christ's sacrifice - though obviously an abhorrent one.

If you look at the deities themselves, Tloque Nahuaque jumps out. He is a sort of shadowy early creation figure, the Lord of what is Close and Far, perceived by some anthropologists as a theological abstraction to a Supreme God. He was seen as the being of all things, the sustainer of existence. Not only is there a parallel to the concept of the Logos here, but even comparable titulature in the form of the First and the Last.

He is sometimes syncretised with, or an epithet of, Tezcatlipoca the Smoking Mirror. This is himself a creation god, who interestingly battles an alligator in the creation myth - akin perhaps to the Serpent motief of Order and Chaos of the Middle East or Leviathan. Leaving aside Tezcatlipoca's part in both a flood and fire raining from the sky in Aztec mythology, he is perhaps an embodiment of power or cycle itself. Further he is an opponent of the Feathered Serpent, Quetzalcoatl, which gave man Civilisation, perhaps a parallel of the Fall.

Quetzalcoatl himself is interesting. Spanish friars tried to equate him to St Thomas, and modern Mormons to Jesus. He was associated with the planet Venus, and also a resurrecting and perhaps returning god. On this ground though, the Aztec form of the Corn King is better: Centeotl. Again a resurrecting king, but one for which every seventh day is sacred.

The rapid conversion of Meso-America is often attributed to the violence of the Spaniards, but the real enthusiasm of the populace in the large open plaza Masses or the cult of Guadalupe should not be overlooked. Christianity was uniquely amenable to their outlook, in what is more powerful than God sacrificing His own Son to sustain the world and for us, when your entire system was built on the need for human sacrifice to achieve this exact end?

To expand on Aztec Mythology:

The interesting problem of Our Lady of Gaudalupe.

This renowned icon of Mexico was made to represent a supposed Marian apparition that occured to a Nahuatl speaking Indian named Juan Diego at the hill of Tepeyac. This had been sacred to the Aztec mother goddess Tonantzin, so the result was a mass of Marian devotion amongst the native Mexicans.

Now Tonantzin was represented in blue or green, called the 'Emerald or Jade woman', as well as with Lapis Lazuli. The Nahuatl language doesn't differentiate between green and blue. So when the Lady of Gaudelupe was swathed in a blue cloak, the Indians saw their Mother Tonantzin in a way, and the Spanish the Virgin Mary.

Now Tonantzin had many aspects, as usual in pagan systems. However, she was tbe bringer of corn, which puts her in a mother relationship to Centeotl, the dying corn god mentioned before, and her moveable feast fell around a number of Marian days (such as the Visitation) and has imagery of 7 again, with a procession of virgins. In many ways, she fulfills much the same role as Mary did in mediaeval Catholicism.

Now Juan Diego did not speak Spanish, but the Apparition spoke to him in Nahuatl, and was recorded as Gaudalupe by the Spaniards. This name is impossible in Nahuatl, so must record a Nahautl form. The prevailing theories are that the original Nahuatl was perhaps Tlecuauhtlapeuh or "She who emerges from light like the eagle from Fire"; or Coatlapeuh or "She with dominion over serpents"; or Tequantlanopueh or "She from the summit of the mountain". All these can easily become Gaudalupe to the Spaniards, especially as there was already a Spanish Gaudalupe devotion to Mary. All these forms are emently relatable to aspects of Christianity: from the association of Coatlapeuh with dominion over Coatlique or "the woman with the Serpent Skirt", with human skulls and hearts, which as the mother of Huitzilpochtli the War god, sends a potent message, and bears relation to a more Western Serpent as symbol of darker aspects; or the other two, which represent ideas of Heaven to the Aztecs; which relates perhaps to the Icon's wearing of stars and seeming to reference the Woman in Revelation 12. This all fits with this Nahuatl naming, an the aspects of the gods themselves in question. Hence this apparition had such a lasting effect and became so important to Mexican Christian devotion.

---
I am Protestant though, so these strong Marian overlays that occured here, gives one pause.

 

[JIMINZ]

Sure I understand it’s a personal connection with Jesus, but I really am not Christian anymore. I feel weird writing on a Christian forum when I don’t believe any of it. In a way I hope someone convinced me otherwise

Well all I can say is, where you were I cannot blame you for the way you now feel.

 

[Eva Quispe]

There are indigenous churches and non-indigenous churches. Roman Catholicism is certainly indigenous to parts of Europe, but not really anywhere else. It took a vision of Theotokos occuring to an indigenous man (Juan Diego) to really establish Catholicism as part of the indigenous Mexican identity. I think that is significant.

Eastern Orthodoxy among the natives of Alaska is a good example, as brought up by our friend Jude1:3Contendforthefaith. Similar points could be made about Orthodoxy growing among the native people of Bolivia and Guatemala in recent years, though I don't think the priests have learned the indigenous languages yet (just Spanish; hopefully as the Orthodox Church grows in those places, they will raise up indigenous priests and bishops). Similar things are also happening in Africa, in places where Christianity originally came with colonizers. The Greek Orthodox patriarchate of Alexandria (Greek/Eastern Orthodox in Egypt) now has many times more people belonging to it outside of Egypt elsewhere in Africa (Uganda, CAF, etc.) than inside of it, and it has been that way for a while. The Coptic Orthodox Church (indigenous Egyptian Orthodox) has also gained many people in other parts of Africa, in South America, and in other places it has gone through the migration of its own people (not through colonialism; the Church in Bolivia, for instance, started when one priest was told that there was a Coptic family in the country, and then after they moved away, he stayed in the country because he had met and befriended so many local people who went to him for spiritual guidance and comfort). Not every Church or every kind of Christianity is like Roman Catholicism or Protestantism in this way.

Hi I find this really interesting. Thank you for sharing about Juan Diego — I wasn’t raised Catholic. Do you know specifics about the church in Bolivia or could you send me your original sources?

 

[dzheremi]

Hi I find this really interesting. Thank you for sharing about Juan Diego — I wasn’t raised Catholic. Do you know specifics about the church in Bolivia or could you send me your original sources?

I know the history of my own Church (the Coptic Orthodox Church) in Bolivia, if that's what you mean. They have a website in English and Spanish that tells the story of the founding of the Church there. Apparently I misremembered earlier: there was more than one Coptic family there originally, but by the time the Church really started there, there was only one Coptic person in the entire country, because the others had moved away. I've met people (Egyptians) who have volunteered in Bolivia who told me that except for the priests and bishop, everyone in the Church in that country is a native Bolivian person (and in the future those positions will be filled by native Bolivians, too; it's just that the church is so new in that country they are only just now raising the first generation in the Church, so it will take time for the young people to grow up and take on these roles). They said that there are about 400 people in the community in the capital (the largest, and the place where the cathedral of St. Mary and St. Mark is), with more in other places around the country. I've also seen videos of them holding their liturgies outside in places away from the cathedral-church in the capital, where they don't have dedicated church buildings yet. I thought that was neat. Things like that happen often in the Coptic Orthodox Church, since it's a church of immigrants in every country outside of Egypt, Libya, and Sudan (the traditional homelands of the Egyptian church). Where I was baptized, in the southwest of the United States, the community had prayed in a private home for about 16 years before I moved there.

I guess in a way it's no more native to Bolivia than Roman Catholicism is (Egypt is not Bolivia, after all), but I do think it's an interesting example of how a Church tradition from outside can come to a new country and be established there without colonialism or heavy-handedness of any kind. The first Coptic priest just went there because he heard there were other Coptic people there and thought it would be good for them to be visited by a priest from their own church, and then the native Bolivians began to befriend him and ask about his church and so on, and he decided to stay even after the original Coptic people left the country. There was no conquistadores or whatever with him. I've heard similar things from Mexican people I have met here in the United States, where I am, who became interested in the Coptic Orthodox Church because they didn't like the association of the Roman Catholic Church with colonialism in their home country, so they wanted to find a kind of Christianity that wasn't colonialist. Since the Coptic Orthodox Church was never part of a colonizing country (the Egyptian Church was in close relations with the churches of Sudan and Ethiopia for centuries, but no Egyptian Christian army ever went to either of those countries to force them to be 'Coptic' in a manner similar to the Spanish coming to the New World and forcing the native people there to be Catholic), I guess it fit for those people. This was in the city of Las Cruces, New Mexico, where we had a couple of non-Coptic people ask about our church, so we came to their town at their request and had a liturgy in the private home of a Coptic family in the city. The wife of the couple was from Mexico, and that's what she said: "In Mexico, we didn't have any choice but to be Catholic." It's a very common sentiment from people. (My own grandmother was Mexican and she said similar things, and eventually left the RCC before she passed away.)

 

[Eva Quispe]

You have free will to choose to believe whatever you want.

I don’t believe in the miracles of Christ. Sermons and bible verses don’t resonate with me. I’m on this forum to see if that will change

 

[Eva Quispe]

Hi. I understand your issues with Christianity. That most of the settlers were hypocrites and abused native populations ,even in my country there was a time where religion with politics was used to control the people, brainwashing whites to justify oppressing natives and relegating them as sub-humans and we are suffering the consequence where the roles have been reversed, in politics at least, and being white means you have some magical privilege even if you are poor or homeless and means you should be treated with the prejudice of being a racist if you are not a patronizer and servant or helper of black people .

What the settlers did was wrong, but it does not invalidate Christianity. Racism is a remnant of old European culture which was not a result of Christian teachings ,but wanting to be superior they took some Old Testament text out of context and thought they were the only holy and Godly race like the Jews in the Old Testament, they even persecuted the Jews sometimes believing they have supplanted the Jews as the true church, but that is simply not true Christianity. In Christianity there is no racism and favoritism according to
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

We have to make a distinct difference between Culture and religion or we will just be having arguments of the traditions of our fathers. I left the traditional church of my upbringing which was heavily entrenched in my culture, which had a lot of the traditions and doctrines of men, until I found the true church of Jesus Christ which delivered me from cultural bondage and set me on a path of a new life of joy, love, peace, provision and discipline I have never experienced and will be forever grateful for.

Strange that you should mention Tata as father in your native tongue. Here in my country it is the IsiXhosa word for grandfather.

Everything you wrote was interesting. Your second paragraph about racism really makes a great point

 

[buzuxi02]

I don’t believe in the miracles of Christ. Sermons and bible verses don’t resonate with me. I’m on this forum to see if that will change

If you believe in your indigenous beliefs so be it. Stick with it. Nothing anyone says is going to convince you because no compelling evidence or arguments can be had. No different than if you tried to convince me of your beliefs. Faith is found in the heart not in textbooks or anything

 

[Eva Quispe]

If you believe in your indigenous beliefs so be it. Stick with it. Nothing anyone says is going to convince you because no compelling evidence or arguments can be had. No different than if you tried to convince me of your beliefs. Faith is found in the heart not in textbooks or anything

Mm no because saints resonate with me. Saint Kateri Tekakwitha, Saint Juan Diego (after learning about him on this post), even Tata Santiago (also this post)

If someone could connect these people to the scripture. Next would be a denomination that has this, then a church

 

[Radagast]

I’m 19

This is, of course, the age at which Saint Kateri Tekakwitha became a Christian.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Mm no because saints resonate with me. Saint Kateri Tekakwitha, Saint Juan Diego (after learning about him on this post), even Tata Santiago (also this post)

If someone could connect these people to the scripture. Next would be a denomination that has this, then a church

They themselves are the connection to scripture - for instance, Juan Diego's vision is clearly the woman from Revelation. You just seem to have an exaggerated sense of 'otherness' that you just resonate with those specific people. God is the God of all races, and racial and social identities are largely just manmade creations. There are many people, including native Americans, who have seen this, and there is no reason to look for specifically cultural validation. The Jesuits famously saw the Lakota Wakan Tanka to just be the Christian God, or things like the code of Handsome Lake amongst the Seneca. The differences between humans are not as great as we believe them to be.

 

[Johan_1988]

Everything you wrote was interesting. Your second paragraph about racism really makes a great point

Thank you. I appreciate your kind remarks.

 

[Radagast]

I don’t believe in the miracles of Christ.

There's a good book by C.S. Lewis on that exact topic, btw.

 

[com7fy8]

most of the settlers were hypocrites and abused native populations

What the settlers did was wrong, but it does not invalidate Christianity.

If they put down anyone, that is wrong.

@Eva Quispe >

I understand the Bible means that any person who trusts in Jesus is adopted to be God's own child.

"For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father.'" (Romans 8:15)

"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!" (in 1 John 3:1)

Every one of us who have trusted in Jesus has been adopted; so there is no special superior group of us!!! And every child of God becomes able to pray effectively for any other person, and every child of God can talk about God's word and we all can help each other >

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers." (Ephesians 4:29)

From this scripture, I see that God means that any child of God can minister God's own grace . . . by what we pray and say to each other. And God's grace changes us to be like Jesus so we can please God like Jesus is so pleasing, plus we can love as family and care with hope for any and all people. Because God's grace in us is the effect of His own love in our character.

My parents and I attended an evangelical church.

Evangelical can be good. What matters is if you have mature "examples" of how God's grace of His word can have all of us become and live >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And I offer how a Biblical example is a person who is becoming and living and ministering the way any of us can. So, an example is meant to bring equality of all God's children, in how blessed and blessing we all can become in God's grace.

And Jesus Himself has prayed >

"that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me," (in John 17:23) >

This is what Jesus Himself prays! So, not only does Christianity make us equal as children with one another, but Jesus desires and has claimed in prayer, that we are loved even as our Father has loved His own Son Jesus!!!

This shows how un-conceited Jesus is, and how we need to pray with consideration of any and all others, as much as for our own selves.

I understand it’s a personal connection with Jesus

And the Bible says >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

And this union with Christ has all of us His children in family connection with each other. And this is in Jesus Christ's love so we can love one another the way Jesus has loved us >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our main equality is not in status or position or acceptance, but in how we all can love like Jesus.

So, God our Father indeed is about family, not hierarchy of who is more or less than anyone else. We have how our great leaders related with the Thessalonians >

"as a nursing mother cherishes her own children,"

we have in 1 Thessalonians 2:7. So, I can see from this how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy considered nursing mothers to be their example of how to care for Christ's church. Possibly, then, ladies helped our great leaders find out how God wanted them to care for His people.

And, Eva, I understand you are saying your people have had a family culture, including with remembering and honoring your ancestors. So, you can more readily appreciate how God's word means for us to be one big family in Jesus . . . not with a bunch of individual groups and individual big-name people and individual Christians who are independent of each other.

Free will should free us to become together with one another, not isolate us so we are making our own choices and trying to be great, only then to wonder why we are lonely and bored and stressing out in our own pursuits!! Learning how to love and share and trust and depend on one another as family is part of the most interesting and worthwhile challenge there is. This is included in the greatest adventure and best possible education we can have in intimacy with God > to learn how to love as family.

So, yes we have connection . . . with intimacy of sharing as family.

And God's word does say >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

To me, this means you are expected to make sure with God about things. And Biblical leaders are "examples" who are humble to welcome you to make sure about what they say and make sure with God about what they would lead you to do.

Now, then > a thing to consider . . . to test . . . is that if God gives us His approved "examples" now in our real lives, then possibly we need to not give too much attention to past family members and ones said to be saints > partly because we can not personally get to know them and their real lives and test how good, then, there examples really were. Because Jesus has no superior out-of-reach people who are only in the past or are distant from us, but Jesus has provided us with His personal "examples to the flock" here with us now.

 

[buzuxi02]

Mm no because saints resonate with me. Saint Kateri Tekakwitha, Saint Juan Diego (after learning about him on this post), even Tata Santiago (also this post)

If someone could connect these people to the scripture. Next would be a denomination that has this, then a church

If you don't believe in Jesus I'm not sure why they would resonate with you. I would think one would reject their testimony.
Basically at this point it's choosing between 2 masters. Can't have both because you will love the one and hate the other .
If you don't believe in Christianity thats fine. It's 2020 no twisting of the arm. But choose one path without the syncretistic nonsense.

The only kind of evidence that perhaps you could look into and possibly persuade you is the writings, rituals and beliefs of your indigenous religion to see if any of it contain prophecies of Jesus Christ.

Jesus himself told the jews, "they search the scripture for in them you think you have life but they are which speak of me.". It's ALL the writings. Scribe is just generic for writing not limited to the OT all ancient sacred writings and even rituals should contain some veiled or cryptic references to the coming Messiah Jesus.
I'm Greek and there are many Greek myths and early ritual practises which foreshadow Christ and his life. Some Christian converts from the Orient believe the Chinese text of Taoism foreshadows the coming of Christ and revelation of the Trinity . The word Tao means "the Way" which is what the early church was called in Acts. (See Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu ch 25, 14, 42)