Relativity and Time, what does the Bible and Science say ?

[Piet Strydom]

I hope this thread will be one where there is a Maths major, or Physicist that will assist us with the contents of this topic of Time.
There is quite a few interesting factors in science and philosophy about what Time is and how it works.
From the Origins of Time, to relativity; time is something we all know, but don't understand.
Where does Time come from, what was before Time, can we travel ahead, or back in Time?
can Time change, is Time-dilation a reality, or an incorrect postulation.

and Most Important, where does God fit in with Time?

 

[timewerx]

I did some practical experiments some time ago concerning sending information back in time. The experiment I performed is similar to testing individuals for ESP or psychic abilities. However, I performed all these tests on myself with the help of the computer to randomize information.

However, I'm not a math major, nor physicist so I think my knowledge would be useless in this thread. All I can say is that it is possible.

 

[Piet Strydom]

From my point of view, Time does not exist.
It is a measurement of moving bodies in relation to how long it takes the Earth to circle the Sun
Eternity is an existence where time does not exist.

2 Cor. 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Time has a beginning and an end, but Eternity not.

from everlasting to everlasting, you are God . . .” (Psa. 90:2).

THERE WILL BE A LAST DAY JUST AS THERE WAS A FIRST DAY

“He that rejects me, and receives not my sayings, has one that judges him: the word that I spoke, the same shall judge him in the last day” (Jn. 12:48).

Time can not be changed.

King James Bible
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

It is just by accident that we age whilst the Earth, Sun and everything in our universe moves and it can be measured with the position of the earth in relation to the Sun.

Therefore, the creation of the Earth and Sun is the clockwork for the thing we call time.
I believe that if there was no movement of heavenly bodies, in the larger scale, or on the atomic scale, and Grandeur, even smaller, time will not exist.
According to the Bible, Time had a beginning. It will also have an end. Funny that science claims the exact.
Before the Sun shone on the earth, time simply was not measured as we do today. This is why God said,

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

and

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,

To conclude, once we take all this in thought, we will see that the Bible had insight into time that we never knew until the 20th century.

 

[Piet Strydom]

However, I'm not a math major, nor physicist so I think my knowledge would be useless in this thread. All I can say is that it is possible.

Well I think you might be a perfect candidate to cross swords with me on the postulation if Time can be broken, changed forwarded or reversed.
I believe that time can not be advanced, nor can we travel into the past.

Therefore, from my perspective, the interpretation of the Theory of Relativity, and special Relativity is wholly exaggerated by scientists who make these claims.

I stand by the Biblical point of view that Time can not be changed and Time dilation is incorrect.
let us discuss the Twin paradox, and I will enable Christians to Question Atheists who think they are very clever and highly educated in Relativity, and want to use this claim that they are this all, and better knowing intellectuals smirking upon Christians as being stupid.

 

[Piet Strydom]

If I mean we can cross swords, I imply that we both play the proverbial Devils Advocate and sort out all possible arguments as friends not scared to tell the other their opinion.

 

[Piet Strydom]

OK, so let me ask?
Those who adhere to the Theory of relativity, and Special relativity, claim that when one twin leaves on a space ship and travels at almost the speed of light for a while, he will be much younger than his brother upon his return.
This means that theoretically, man can change time.
The Bible says that time can not be changed.
Which is true?

 

[Almost there]

I hope this thread will be one where there is a Maths major, or Physicist that will assist us with the contents of this topic of Time.
There is quite a few interesting factors in science and philosophy about what Time is and how it works.
From the Origins of Time, to relativity; time is something we all know, but don't understand.
Where does Time come from, what was before Time, can we travel ahead, or back in Time?
can Time change, is Time-dilation a reality, or an incorrect postulation.

and Most Important, where does God fit in with Time?

I've noticed a lot of people using the word "maths" the last year or so. Did something change? It was always called "math".

 

[Piet Strydom]

Oh golly.
I learned English only late in my life and it might be strange to you, but I even get confused between Is, Am, Are, Was, Were.
please forgive this Afrikaans Boer for making such errors.

I've noticed a lot of people using the word "maths" the last year or so. Did something change? It was always called "math".

 

[Almost there]

Oh golly.
I learned English only late in my life and it might be strange to you, but I even get confused between Is, Am, Are, Was, Were.
please forgive this Afrikaans Boer for making such errors.

Hey, it wasn't that you used it, per se. It was that I've seen it used a lot, lately. And because there is a lot of newspeak being taught these days, I thought it might be one of those words that is being changed.

 

[sfs]

Those who adhere to the Theory of relativity, and Special relativity, claim that when one twin leaves on a space ship and travels at almost the speed of light for a while, he will be much younger than his brother upon his return.
This means that theoretically, man can change time.

No, it doesn't mean that. It means that our naive ideas about time are wrong -- that's all. Since the accuracy of Special Relativity can be observed very easily, arguing against it just means you're arguing against reality.

 

[sfs]

I've noticed a lot of people using the word "maths" the last year or so. Did something change? It was always called "math".

"Maths" is British usage, "math" is US and Canadian.

 

[timewerx]

Well I think you might be a perfect candidate to cross swords with me on the postulation if Time can be broken, changed forwarded or reversed.
I believe that time can not be advanced, nor can we travel into the past.

I'm uncertain myself.

However, I'm not working with theories, nor hypothesis, and neither my personal opinion.

I actually did a real experiment trying to send information back in time. The experiment also covered paradoxes of time travel by using future information to try to cause an "alternate" future as a result of actions resulting from information coming from the future.

The great difficulty of achieving reliable results is that the information received is either considerably distorted or de-constituted into abstract forms. The process is similar to ESP or telepathy but since I'm sending the thoughts to myself from another time, it may not be ESP at all but something else.

Anyway, the outcome of this experiment still left me with uncertainties. I'm not closer to finding an answer and rather confused me more.

 

[Piet Strydom]

Since the accuracy of Special Relativity can be observed very easily, arguing against it just means you're arguing against reality.

I took the time to find out if there was any real observation on the theory of SR and R, however, I saw huge flaws.
There was up until now not a single test proving the SR&R correct.
Even the so called test with Cesium beam clocks, where four was sent around the world is one huge hoax.
The scientists Hafele-Keating who conducted the test did find that the clocks that was on the planes did run slower than the stationary one on the earth. Furthermore, between 2 clocks that traveled East and 2 west, also had differences. The differences was calculated and found to be in sync with what the Laurenz formula predicted.
Further studies was conducted in space and even Mountain ranges and compared with stationary clocks at sea level. All of them shows a difference in agreement with predictions of Laurenz's calculations.

However, I do not see any scientist taking gravitational forces into account, proving differences between velocities on the same altitude, and using any other method of measurement by Cesium clocks.
it is a fact that Gravity does have an influence on Radio active decay, and if one measures decay on different altitudes, there will obviously be differences, and the minute differences measured by Scientists, can actually be due to this phenomena.
Secondly, the whole logical conclusion on Time dilation is one of observation of Light, and has nothing to do with Time.
I hope there is one person among us that will play devils advocate to assist in a discussion hereon.

 

[Rion The Lion]

What a fantastic question to ask, OP. I think I may have some general answers for you.

You asked, what is 'time'. Now when we attempt to understand time, we must do so within the context of our Universe. Because within another Universe, time would behave differently than it does within our universe.

In our Universe, time is the animation rate of quantum Particles—and it generally passes at a constant rate. The faster the rate these particles are animated, the faster time passes for the greater system which that particular quantum particle is apart of.

Moreover, when we ask, when did time begin, what were truly asking is, 'When did time within our Universe begin?' But I'm actually going to refrain from answering this question directly, more in-depth; because in my view, the Beginning of Time was initiated far-longer than 6,000 years ago; and I don't want to anger anybody on this forum by getting too detailed about.

Okay, onto the next question. Time-dilation, is it real?

Yes, it is. Special Relativity (a.k.a the supporting theory of time-dilation) is a known scientific truth. Time literally passes at different rates within a frame of reference depending on two factors.

The first, the speed an object is traveling within a frame of reference;
and the second, the strength of the gravity field that is being applied upon an object existing within a frame of reference. My personal belief is that each of these two factors causes a friction with the animation rate, thereby slowing the animation rate of time down.

I'm working on a book, Celestial Blueprints: The Logos, where I delve into these topics in-depth. Perhaps you would be interested in checking it out sometime. In the meantime, you can signup for the newsletter on my website: Seventh Seal Project™ What is truth? A Creation Theory of our Reality

 

[Rion The Lion]

Oh, sorry, I missed the last and most important question you asked.

Where does God fit into time?

Well, imagine the animation rate (or time) as a function. This function must be programmed with an equation in order to operate. I see God as being the one who programmed the function of time, instructing it as to how it should operate.

I hope I explained that well enough.

 

[Piet Strydom]

I hope I explained that well enough.

I love your thinking Rion the Lion!
and 28 years old!
Lovely to find a Christian who "delves into science.

 

[Piet Strydom]

In our Universe, time is the animation rate of quantum Particles—and it generally passes at a constant rate. The faster the rate these particles are animated, the faster time passes for the greater system which that particular quantum particle is apart of.

But, do you agree that the measurement of Time consists of the increments of Years, Months, Days, Hours, and Seconds?
Therefore what we are doing is to relate the speed of say, radio isotope decay, or the distance travelled of light, with the position of the Earth as it relates to the Sun.
So, we took quantum particles and compared its speed with the Solar system measurement, and found another measurement to use in stead of our normal mechanical clocks.

 

[Piet Strydom]

in my view, the Beginning of Time was initiated far-longer than 6,000 years ago; and I don't want to anger anybody on this forum by getting too detailed about.

Again, I agree with you, except that you should never be concerned about other people geting angered about facts.
Even if your point of view might be wrong. This allows all information to be scrutinized.
Occam's razor.
However, I agree that Time existed before 6000 years ago, one should just keep in mind that what the Author of Genesis did is really insightful. He said, Time on Earth and the Solar system will be measured with the Earth and Sun!
He also made it clear that before the First day, Earth Time did not exist!
In other words, He says, some other method was used to measure Time, but not as we understand, and He called it "In the Beginning!"
Therefore this very small insight actually places the criticizer of Genesis in a stale mate situation.

 

[Piet Strydom]

Yes, it is. Special Relativity (a.k.a the supporting theory of time-dilation) is a known scientific truth. Time literally passes at different rates within a frame of reference depending on two factors.

This is where I have a huge problem.
If I experiment with the logic about Time dilation, I do not find this results.
Now, I do not think I am some sort of all knowing scientist, I am not.
But I do not find the answer to the questions I pose.
I will subscribe to your newsletter and I think it will be delightful to see your thinking.
I want to investigate this topic with you on this forum if you don't mind.
Greetings

 

[Piet Strydom]

I think we can start to look at what the Theory of SR say.
For the purpose of simplicity we will prepare the thought experiment with the following adjustments to our true observations.
1. We will move the Moon away from the earth to be one light second away from the Earth.
2. we will round the speed of light up to 300 000 Km per second, in place of the known speed of 299 792, 458Km per second.
3. We will build a spaceship that can travel at the speed of light.
4. this space ship can accelerate from 0 to 300 000Km immediately, and can slow down to 0 again immediately. This without G forces destroying the spaceship and its occupants.

Now...
A. We placed 2 huge clocks on the Earth and Moon.
B. When we moved the one clock from the Earth, we were travelling at a very low speed that would not influence time dilation at all.
C. We actually moved both the clocks on 2 spaceships, up to a point right center between the Earth and Moon, then we traveled into each its own direction towards the Moon and Earth delivering the clocks with the exact time on its face.
D. now we have an observer on Earth, one on the space ship and someone on the Moon.

Let the games begin.

If the Space ship leaves earth, what was the exact time on
1. the Clock on Earth?
2.The clock on the Moon?

Is the artistic impression correct?